Order of Precedence 1: Ending 2022

[Duke-of-Earl]

Yes but does William outranks Camilla?
Camilla is the wife of the Heir Apparent and I don't see how William could outrank her, even if he is the future King.

You know more about this than I do but from different articles I've read lately, this appears to be the way it is.

Should Kate Middleton bend a knee to Princess Beatrice? | Mail Online

Edit: Actually this article states Catherine does have to curtsey to Camilla even if William is present, which means William would bow to Camilla.

 

[Artemisia]

That's kind of what confuses me.

Various articles I have read state that if William is present but Charles isn't, then William's wife - taking precedence from her husband - outranks Camilla. Now, that doesn't make sense to me. That would imply that William outranks Camilla in his own right but how? Because he is the Queen's grandson in his own right whereas Camilla is "just" a Princess by marriage. That sort of make sense unless you realise that then Camilla would actually have to curtsey (in theory) to Andrew, Edward, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Anne, Alexandra... In other words, all royals who were, as it were, born royals.

The only explanation I have is that William - as the eldest son of the Prince of Wales - holds special precedence when his father is not present. Then again, that contradicts to the article you've linked which states he'd have to bow to Camilla whether Charles is present or not. Besides, that would explain why William wouldn't have to bow to Camilla (if Charles isn't present), but not his wife's lack of curtsey (because Kate is in exactly the same position as Camilla). *


I'm starting to believe there was some sort of an error in the interpretation of the Precedence and, to me, everything is pretty simple: Camilla is the second woman in the Kingdom after the Queen, and there is no one but the Queen and Prince Philip she has to curtsey to whether her husband is present or not. Unless someone gives logical and/or official reason why that isn't the case, I'm going to go by that rule whatever various news outlets may state.


* To clarify, I know royals don't spend the day bowing/curtseying each other; the discussion is from precedence point of view only and has little to do with what royals would do in real life.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I have always believed this to be the case with the Duchess of Cornwall. Precedence in the BRF is very confusing to me (William appears to outrank his uncles on Remembrance Day for example) even though he is behind his uncles on 'official' precedence lists/
For me , Camilla is the second lady in the land.

When I think of precedence in the BRF, I look to the balcony appearance during the Jubilee. Official or not, those are the 'top' 7 members of the BRF.

 

[Artemisia]

I have always believed this to be the case with the Duchess of Cornwall. Precedence in the BRF is very confusing to me (William appears to outrank his uncles on Remembrance Day for example) even though he is behind his uncles on 'official' precedence lists/
For me , Camilla is the second lady in the land.

I think, just as with women, there is a kind of private precedence list for men as well where William (and possibly, Harry too) do indeed outrank the Sovereign's son (apart from Charles, of course).

By and large, BRF's precedence is pretty clear to me (though I'm not saying my viewpoint is necessarily 100% accurate) but the "Camilla must curtsey to Kate if William is present but Charles isn't" situation - which, incidentally, was put forward by not necessarily most reliable news outlets in the world in the first place - confuses me simply because I don't understand the logic behind it.

 

[Kit]

I really love your informative posts Artemisia and you have hit the nail on the head too with your previous post. I remember the discussion began with an article by the Daily Mail a few weeks before the wedding. Will Camilla have to curtsey before Kate was the headline and all other newspapers printed the article as well. IMO they only did this to have a good headline. Nobody would have asked this question if Camilla were William's real mother. Why should a son and his wife take precedence over his mother ??? This would only be the case if Camilla were Dowager Queen with William and Kate being King and Queen.

 

[Dman]

Yes, I do think it's true that Camilla is the second lady of the land as Catherine is third.

I paid attention to how the senior royals arrived at Zara's wedding. Although Andrew & Edward arrived before William at the wedding. The arrivals somehow aligned with the succession to the throne. William arrived just before The Prince of Wales and The Prince of Wales arrived just before The Queen.

 

[Grandma828]

I vote to just let the royals sort it out and enjoy watching the show.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I don't pay much attention to what the tabloids say about this matter.
I try to look to 'real life', and figure it out for myself and at least since William's wedding, I have not witnessed a situation where Andrew or Edward have taken precedence over William (Zara's wedding, Remembrance Day) and Like Kit has stated, no one would question Camilla's precedence if she were William's biological mum.

 

[Dman]

Precedence:
Precedence

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

The placing of wreaths at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day is almost sacrosanct with the BRF, and if William takes precedence over Andrew and Edward there, than at least in my opinion, William takes precedence over his uncles everywhere, regardless of what the lists say and I also believe Camilla to be the second lady in the land period, regardless of the lists.

 

[Artemisia]

Well, the lists (official, not private ones) do place Camilla immediately after the Queen. It's the tabloids that made it confusing with "Kate must curtsey to Beatrice" and "Camilla must to Kate" type of headlines.

As for precedence for men, I still believe that the Official Precedence (which is governed by law and traditions, and cannot be changed on the spot even by the Sovereign) places William and Harry below Andrew and Edward. The Private Precedence, on the other hand, appears to be different, placing the Wales kids immediately after their father and ahead of Andrew and Edward.

Most of the times, William's apparent precedence over his uncles is pretty easy to explain: William and Harry usually arrive with Prince Charles and Camilla, as a family, giving an appearance they are "ahead" of Andrew and Edward. This said, I admit finding it hard to explain William's precedence over his uncles at the Remembrance Day ceremony - a highly official event. If he had represented his father, that would have made sense, but he didn't.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

The only example I can find where the law applies to precedence within the BRF is with the POW normally coming after the sovereign but from what I can figure, all other precedence is a matter for the Queen but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[branchg]

In the female Order of Precedence, wives of grandsons of the sovereign come ahead of granddaughters of the sovereign. Thus, Autumn Phillips has precedence over Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. If Autumn has precedence over Beatrice and Eugenie, obviously Peter does as well.

Wives of male-line grandsons of The Sovereign come before male-line granddaughters in the female order of precedence. Autumn does not come before any females holding the rank of HRH.

 

[branchg]

Does this mean that Kate with William will have precedence over Camilla without Charles?

No, it does not. Camilla takes precedence ahead of all females as the wife of the heir to the throne, whether William is present or not. Only The Queen comes before her.

 

[branchg]

The placing of wreaths at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day is almost sacrosanct with the BRF, and if William takes precedence over Andrew and Edward there, than at least in my opinion, William takes precedence over his uncles everywhere, regardless of what the lists say and I also believe Camilla to be the second lady in the land period, regardless of the lists.

William takes precedence over his uncles on certain occasions as the spare to the throne. This includes both court and official events.

Obviously, as a future King, this is an exception that makes sense since his public duties reflect a higher profile and status, including representing his grandmother, The Queen, at times.

 

[Kit]

Thanks branchg for the confirmation about Camilla's rank.

 

[Baroness of Books]

In the female Order of Precedence, wives of grandsons of the sovereign come ahead of granddaughters of the sovereign. Thus, Autumn Phillips has precedence over Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. If Autumn has precedence over Beatrice and Eugenie, obviously Peter does as well.

I don't know if this is muddying up the waters, but I had thought the grandchildren of a sovereign through the male line have precedence over grandchildren descending from the sovereign through the female line. Beatrice and Eugenie inherited their royal titles through Prince Andrew, whereas Peter does not possess a title by means of his parents, Princess Anne and Mark Phillips, and neither would his wife by marriage. Therefore, I can't see how Peter and Autumn would have precedence over blood-royal princesses who were born to a prince who has precedence himself over his princess sister.

 

[EllieCat]

I have not witnessed a situation where Andrew or Edward have taken precedence over William

There was one: At the opening of the Paralympics, right beside The Queen were Prince Edward, then Sophie, then a couple of British politicians, and then Prince William and Catherine, and then Princess Anne.

It's a good thing the Royals seem to know what they're doing, as we here all appear to be confused! I certainly am.

 

[COUNTESS]

It doesn't matter who walks in with whom, at what time, it is their own ideas, most of the world doesn't care a wit.

 

[Dman]

Well I think The Earl of Wessex sat next to The Queen because of his role as Patron of The British Paralympic Association.

 

[Rocketmom]

I've read that Beatrice and Eugenie come before Kate because they are blood princesses. So if William and Kate have a child which will obviously be a blood prince or princess, and Kate still is not a blood "anything", does Kate have to curtsey to her own child?

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I've read that Beatrice and Eugenie come before Kate because they are blood princesses. So if William and Kate have a child which will obviously be a blood prince or princess, and Kate still is not a blood "anything", does Kate have to curtsey to her own child?

I don't understand this because if true, this would mean Princess Alexandra would also have to curtsey to Bea and Eug?

 

[AdmirerUS]

I don't understand this because if true, this would mean Princess Alexandra would also have to curtsey to Bea and Eug?

Technically, if there were none of the men around Kate would bow to B and E. But it is rare for any of these women to curtsey anymore. They are all just their own part of the firm and get on with it without most of the bowing and scraping.

Do a search in this forum on "Kate Beatrice Eugenie" and you will see the discussion on this issue from the past. There is actually a lot of good stuff in former posts in the Forums in general - and makes for good reading on rainy days. Have fun with this and welcome to the Forums Rocketmom (great forum name BTW)!

 

[Roslyn]

I've read that Beatrice and Eugenie come before Kate because they are blood princesses. So if William and Kate have a child which will obviously be a blood prince or princess, and Kate still is not a blood "anything", does Kate have to curtsey to her own child?

Just off the top of my head I'm going to say no. Not while they are minors, anyway. By the time the children are of age, Kate will be HRH The Princess of Wales. What's the position of The Princess of Wales under HM's orders? Not sure, however if Camilla does not become Queen (and probably even if she does) Charles can, and, I think, will, issue orders regarding who has to curtsey to whom, and Kate's position will be sorted out then. Assuming William outlives Charles and Kate becomes Queen Consort, she will have to curtsey to no-one, as she will still be her Majesty the Queen, whether or not William is present, and as such will outrank a princess of the blood. But the moment he's dead she'll have to curtsey to the child who succeeds him as monarch. Just as the Queen Mother had to curtsey to her daughter from the moment of her husband's death, as Mary and Alexandra had to curtsey to their sons.

 

[cepe]

When Charles becomes King, Camilla will be the highest ranked female and except for Charles, everyone will bow and curtsey to her. IT wont matter whether she is called Queen or not - she will still rank as #1 as wife of the King.

 

[Artemisia]

We seem to have confused Private and Official Orders of Precedence again. In addition, people are included in the Orders of Precedence (either one) only once they come of age or finish education. In the orders I have posted here in the past, I have included Lady Louise and James - but simply because of convenience, to show the places they will occupy in future (but do not now because they are minors).


Kate - as wife of the Sovereign's grandson - is ahead of Beatrice and Eugenie in the Official Order of Precedence, which is the one that would be used if there ever was a need to curtsey/bow to anyone. What is more, a lower place in the Order of Precedence does not require to bow/curtsey to anyone: it merely determines ranking.

For instance, Camilla - as wife of the Duke of Cornwall - is the second lady in the Kingdom in the Official Order of the Precedence. However, in the Private one, she (as British Princess by marriage) ranks below Princesses by blood of her generation - Anne and Alexandra. That doesn't mean in any way Camilla has to curtsey to either.
Similarly, Kate - as the wife of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales - is ranked ahead of all granddaughters of the Sovereign (the ranking is the Queen -> the Duchess of Cornwall -> The Countess of Wessex -> The Duchess of Cambridge) in the Official Order of Precedence. However, in the Private one she is ranked below Princesses by blood of her generation - Beatrice and Eugenie. Again, she most definitely doesn't have to curtsey to the girls under any circumstances.


Those stupid "Kate Has to Curtsey to Blood Princesses" type of headlines that various news outlets printed from time to time are terribly misleading and inaccurate. Besides, nowadays royals don't go around curtseying/bowing to each other (with the exception of the Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh and, in some cases, the Prince of Wales), so there would not be a situation such as you envisioned.

 

[Iluvbertie]

We don't know if they curtsey to each other when in private because we simply aren't there so it is a broad statement to say that they don't curtsey to each other anymore.

We don't know what order they enter a room when in private either - again because we aren't there.

 

[Artemisia]

With respect, if they no longer curtsey and bow to each other on official events (with the exception of the Queen and Prince Philip), I think it's fairly safe to assume they don't do that behind the close doors either.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Just off the top of my head I'm going to say no. Not while they are minors, anyway. By the time the children are of age, Kate will be HRH The Princess of Wales.

We don't know if she will ever be Princess of Wales - that will be determined by Charles if he decides to create William Prince of Wales - it isn't an automatic title.

 

[Roslyn]

We don't know if she will ever be Princess of Wales - that will be determined by Charles if he decides to create William Prince of Wales - it isn't an automatic title.

Fair point. I have been assuming he will.