Marriage to Commoners vs Royals/Nobles

[Moonmaiden23]

I don't see that it would be up to Andrew..

Yes and no. It's unlikely that he would have done so, but if he had strongly disapproved of the groom it would have made things very uncomfortable for the bride and groom. He could have withheld $$ for the wedding. He definitely wouldn't have given that super jolly wedding toast.

It's a moot point. He seems thrilled with his son-in-law.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Mike and his father have given an interview to the Sunday Times:


** sundaytimes: Mike Tindall and his dad, Philip, on marrying into royalty **


** dm article: Mike Tindall's father says Zara Tindall is 'so pleased' she wasn't given a HRH title..**

Funny that Mr. Tindall's grandmother thought Michael might be too lowborn to marry into "royalty", even though his wife Zara never formally held royal rank. Have there been any dynasties in which even the non-royal members of the family are expected to marry a person of "appropriate" rank?

 

[Denville]

Funny that Mr. Tindall's grandmother thought Michael might be too lowborn to marry into "royalty", even though his wife Zara never formally held royal rank. Have there been any dynasties in which even the non-royal members of the family are expected to marry a person of "appropriate" rank?

Generally speaking in European monarchies in the past, all members of the family were titled and considered royal.. and there were restrictions on whom they could marry, hence the use of Morganatic marriage

 

[Mbruno]

Funny that Mr. Tindall's grandmother thought Michael might be too lowborn to marry into "royalty", even though his wife Zara never formally held royal rank. Have there been any dynasties in which even the non-royal members of the family are expected to marry a person of "appropriate" rank?

People in Zara's category are grandchildren in maternal line of a British sovereign. In the past, the norm for daughters of British monarchs was to marry other European royals (including possibly heirs apparent) or, at least, marry a British peer. Their children were then either royal or, at least, considered members of the aristocracy and generally either titled themselves or entitled to the use of an honorary prefix as children of peers.



Daughters of Queen Victoria

1. Victoria, Princess Royal: married to Frederick III, German Emperor.
2. Princess Alice: married to Louis IV, Grand Duke of Hesse.
3. Princess Helena: married to Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein.
4. Princess Louise: married to the 9th Duke of Argyll.
5. Princess Beatrice: married Prince Henry of Battemberg

Daughters of King Edward VII

1. Louise, Princess Royal: married to the 1st Duke of Fife.
2. Princess Victoria: never married.
3. Princess Maud: married Prince Carl of Denmark, later Haakon VII of Norway.

Daughters of George V

1. Mary, Princess Royal: married to the 6th Earl of Harewood.

Daughters of George VI




1. Princess Elizabeth: married Prince Phliip of Greece and Denmark (although he was only Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten in the UK).


2. Princess Margaret: her husband was created the 1st Earl of Snowdon.







Queen Elizabeth II's only daughter, Princess Anne, if Lord Mountbatten of Burma had had his way, would have married Carl XVi Gustaf of Sweden and theoir children would have been Princes/Princesses of Sweden (apparently, neither one, especially Carl Gustaf, was interested). Even when Princess Anne married a commoner, Mark Phillips, the Queen offered to make him an earl,but he declined. Under normal circumstances, Zara would have been Lady Zara Tindall today (as a daughter of an earl married to a commoner) as opposed to Mrs Michael Tindall.

 

[Heavs]

Zara isn't formally royal but she's still the Queen's granddaughter and she and her children are in the top 20 in the line of succession. She and Mike are invited to family events with the Queen and participate in public royal events like Trooping. She is for those practical and theoretical intents and purposes "royalty" having many of the perks and less of the burdens.

I suspect Mike's grandmother was thinking along the lines that many posters here and in the general public sometimes do when they get excited about the possibility of a Royal-Royal marriage or at least Royal-Aristocratic marriage, even though they themselves are neither, because "that's the way it should be" even though it hasn't been for decades and hasn't always exactly worked out when people think like that and ignore the actual people involved.

There has never been any expectation on who Zara should marry class wise and her long term boyfriend before Mike was a Jockey but no one would have batted an eyelid and many would have been pleased if she'd married the son of a peer or European aristocrat or royalty. Think how many articles/posts there were about Beatrice marrying an Italian Count and "marrying the best out of her cousins" even though he was born a British citizen and doesn't use it at all.

 

[MsLeonie]

Queen Elizabeth II's only daughter, Princess Anne, if Lord Mountbatten of Burma had had his way, would have married Carl XVi Gustaf of Sweden and theoir children would have been Princes/Princesses of Sweden (apparently, neither one, especially Carl Gustaf, was interested).

Possibly Gustaf wasn't interested because he was already madly in love with Silvia and waiting for the old King to die so he could marry her? Also, Mountbatten seemed to always have his nose into everything regarding royal marriages of the British royal family. He wanted Charles to marry one of his nieces and that never happened. Mountbatten should have been happy to have gotten Elizabeth to fall for Philip. That was his crowning glory in the matchmaker department.

 

[Denville]

Possibly Gustaf wasn't interested because he was already madly in love with Silvia and waiting for the old King to die so he could marry her? Also, Mountbatten seemed to always have his nose into everything regarding royal marriages of the British royal family. He wanted Charles to marry one of his nieces and that never happened. Mountbatten should have been happy to have gotten Elizabeth to fall for Philip. That was his crowning glory in the matchmaker department.

How did Mountbatten "get the queen to fall for Philip"? She met him when she was 13 adn he was 18.. and seems to have been drawn to him from then onwards.

 

[JR76]

Possibly Gustaf wasn't interested because he was already madly in love with Silvia and waiting for the old King to die so he could marry her?

The alleged Mountbatten push for Princess Anne to become Queen of Sweden was supposedly made in the late sixties before Crown Prince Carl Gustav met his future wife. At the time he's said to have been involved with the French aristocrat Milly De Grasset but the relationship was vetoed by his grandfather. King Gustav Adolf, Princess Sibylla, Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip are all said to have been in favour of the match but the three parents didn't want to push the youngsters into something against their own free will. Princess Sibylla even said in an interview with a Swedish magazine that she hoped her son would marry a Swedish girl which, with one possible exception, would indicate that she was in favour of changing the rules regarding equal marriages.

 

[LauraS3514]

Possibly Gustaf wasn't interested because he was already madly in love with Silvia and waiting for the old King to die so he could marry her? Also, Mountbatten seemed to always have his nose into everything regarding royal marriages of the British royal family. He wanted Charles to marry one of his nieces and that never happened. Mountbatten should have been happy to have gotten Elizabeth to fall for Philip. That was his crowning glory in the matchmaker department.

It was actually his granddaughter Lady Amanda Knatchbull who was the "chosen" bride. Neither one felt any sparks...

 

[Countessmeout]

Royal Musings: Anne is only 16, but never too early to arrange a marriage

I could never see Anne having even fathomed such a suggestion. She was training as an equestrian by the late 60's. By the time Carl Gustaf met Silvia, Anne was competing at the European level. The idea of her giving that all up to become a crown princess in Sweden and fill that role makes me laugh. Anne may have had the royal breeding Silvia lacked but she would never have made a prime crown princess either. I don't know enough about CG back in those days to understand any dislike from him of such a suggestion.

Seems Louis Mountbatten was not satisfied with simply his nephew being the prince consort of the UK. Amanda for Charles and Norton was a suggestion for Anne but he failed on both.

I have read a big stumbling block for Amanda was her grandfather's assassination. After losing her grandfather, brother and paternal grandmother in the bombing, she wasn't willing to consider marriage and the danger that could come with it, to a royal.

 

[leidi]

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20211110_93747539

Has anyone seen anything about this rumor of Gabriel dating Amalia?
Like where did it even come from?!!!

 

[Marengo]

The two names were connected from the beginning. Their birthdays are not far apart. And Gabriel's birth was accompanied in some magazines by the fact that he was forbidden to marry Amalia as the Belgian constitution forbids marriages with members of the house of Orange-Nassau.

The romeo and juliet narrative would be a feast for the magazines. If true I would paint my whole house Orange and sing 'oranje boven' for the rest of the year but I fear the credibility of the story is nil. I remember in the 90-ties when the press was always setting up the European royals. WA and Victoria, WA and a Bavarian duchess, Philippe and Elena, Victoria and Nikolaus of Greece, Felipe and Tatiana of Liechtenstein... etc etc.

 

[leidi]

The two names were connected from the beginning. Their birthdays are not far apart. And Gabriel's birth was accompanied in some magazines by the fact that he was forbidden to marry Amalia as the Belgian constitution forbids marriages with members of the house of Orange-Nassau.

The romeo and juliet narrative would be a feast for the magazines. If true I would paint my whole house Orange and sing 'oranje boven' for the rest of the year but I fear the credibility of the story is nil. I remember in the 90-ties when the press was always setting up the European royals. WA and Victoria, WA and a Bavarian duchess, Philippe and Elena, Victoria and Nikolaus of Greece, Felipe and Tatiana of Liechtenstein... etc etc.

What is weird is that Gabriel isn't linked to Leonor for example, who's a Catholic as well and is with Amalia who's not.

It has started now, any bets on who's going to be Elisabeth's potential royal boyfriend?

 

[Marengo]

What is weird is that Gabriel isn't linked to Leonor for example, who's a Catholic as well and is with Amalia who's not.

I suppose it is the Benelux connection. But give it time and I am sure the boulevard magazine will list him as one of Leonor's suitors too.

It has started now, any bets on who's going to be Elisabeth's potential royal boyfriend?

Iñaki is half-Belgian IIC and has many sons. It is a matter of time before the magazines will connect the dots .

 

[Prinsara]

Gabriel's also in the UK right now and Amalia is anywhere but, on her gap year. Was the relationship supposed to be maintained long-distance not only now, but while they both go to university...?

And given the different political climate now as opposed to 200 years ago, if he did end up wanting to marry Amalia, wouldn't some exemption or loophole be made?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What is weird is that Gabriel isn't linked to Leonor for example, who's a Catholic as well and is with Amalia who's not.

It has started now, any bets on who's going to be Elisabeth's potential royal boyfriend?

Well Willem-Alexander is a Protestant whom married the Catholic Máxima in 2002. It is an old habit anyway as the (then still) Catholic Willem of Nassau, Prince of Orange, married the Protestant Anna of Saxony in 1561. In Belgium the Catholic Leopold III married the Protestant Astrid of Sweden in 1926.

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20211110_93747539

Has anyone seen anything about this rumor of Gabriel dating Amalia?
Like where did it even come from?!!!

It would be a fantastic match: two royals from two neighbouring countries, both sharing the same mother tongue and it would be some sort of "re-union" of the former Southern Netherlands with the former Northern Netherlands.

The two countries are apart but I think there are not many countries with which the ties are so intensive, in all aspects of economy, society, culture, media, sports, etc. as between the Netherlands and Belgium.

 

[wartenberg7]

It would be a fantastic match: two royals from two neighbouring countries, both sharing the same mother tongue and it would be some sort of "re-union" of the former Southern Netherlands with the former Northern Netherlands.

The two countries are apart but I think there are not many countries with which the ties are so intensive, in all aspects of economy, society, culture, media, sports, etc. as between the Netherlands and Belgium.

This will be nothing else like it is always when the tabloid press dreams about a royal union (to sell their stuff): A rumour.
Even if there was some truth in it - do you remember how "old" these two are? Hardly anyone sticks to his/ her first crush. This is not Constantine and Anne-Marie. besides, they are from a totally different generation.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

This will be nothing else like it is always when the tabloid press dreams about a royal union (to sell their stuff): A rumour.
Even if there was some truth in it - do you remember how "old" these two are? Hardly anyone sticks to his/ her first crush. This is not Constantine and Anne-Marie. besides, they are from a totally different generation.

Of course it is all rumours but Guillaume de Nassau x Stéphanie comtesse de Lannoy and Philippe de Belgique x Mathilde comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz show that "traditional" weddings are still possible.

I would not be surprised that a newer generation maybe is more conservative than the previous generation. That Catharina-Amalia has a certain idea about a partner. But at the same time Gabriel can equally fall in love with his fitness trainer, who knows?

 

[Stefan]

It would be a fantastic match: two royals from two neighbouring countries, both sharing the same mother tongue and it would be some sort of "re-union" of the former Southern Netherlands with the former Northern Netherlands.

Wouldn't it be more fantastic for the belgian royal if Pricness Elisabeth married a dutch Royal. Of course there is notmuch choice as Queen Beatrix has only 1 grandson, but Princess Margriet has several grandsons.

And i believe the cildren of Prince Maurits have been christened catholic.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Wouldn't it be more fantastic for the belgian royal if Pricness Elisabeth married a dutch Royal. Of course there is notmuch choice as Queen Beatrix has only 1 grandson, but Princess Margriet has several grandsons.

And i believe the cildren of Prince Maurits have been christened catholic.

Claus-Casimir graaf van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg (picture) is already active as commercial entrepreneur, much alike his late (and very succesful) uncle Friso and his cousin Bernhard, whom made fortunes. I have the feeling this is what Claus-Casimir pursues. Of course it would be wonderful when he becomes Consort to Princess Elisabeth: he would bring a firm boost of typical Dutch business-awareness into the Belgian Court.

Dreams are for free...

 

[Mbruno]

What is weird is that Gabriel isn't linked to Leonor for example, who's a Catholic as well and is with Amalia who's not.

It has started now, any bets on who's going to be Elisabeth's potential royal boyfriend?

Yes, Leonor would be a better match for him (dynastically speaking). It is very unlikely that his ultra-Catholic family would favor a marriage to a Protestant princess and, in any case, marrying a future Orange-Nassau queen, for historical reasons, might not go well in Belgium as their children would be in the line of succession to the thrones of both Belgium and the Netherlands.


I don't give much weight to those rumors though. It may be like when Prince William was frequently matched with Madeleine of Sweden although they didn't even know each other.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, Leonor would be a better match for him (dynastically speaking). It is very unlikely that his ultra-Catholic family would favor a marriage to a Protestant princess and, in any case, marrying a future Orange-Nassau queen, for historical reasons, might not go well in Belgium as their children would be in the line of succession to the thrones of both Belgium and the Netherlands.


I don't give much weight to those rumors though. It may be like when Prince William was frequently matched with Madeleine of Sweden although they didn't even know each other.

When Claus-Casimir marries Princess Elisabeth, naturally he will request the Dutch Government not to offer a Bill of Consent for his marriage to Parliament. Without an Act of Consent, Claus-Casimir and his offspring are no longer successors in the Netherlands. Problem solved.

Another article on Gabriel of Belgium x Catharina-Amalia of the Netherlands:


Their angle is the Decree Nr 5 from 1830 which forbids unions with anyone from the House of Orange-Nassau. When it comes to an engagement, without any doubt that Act will be repealed. It is not 1830 anymore (the first year of the secession of the Southern Netherlands).



https://www.hln.be/royalty/zijn-pri...ands-koningshuis-met-elkaar-trouwen~afbb63a7/

And the newspaper De Morgen also about the Decree Nr 5 of 1830:


https://www.demorgen.be/nieuws/neen...30~bfbb63a7/?referrer=https://www.google.com/


Declaration of the National Congress on the perpetual exclusion of the House Orange-Nassau from all power in Belgium (Decree No 5 of November 24, 1830)

On behalf of the Belgian people,

The National Congress declares that the members of the House Orange-Nassau are, in perpetuity, excluded from any power in Belgium.



Declaration of the National Congress on the independence of the Belgian people and the exclusion of the House Orange-Nassau (24 februari 1831)

The National Congress,

Declares that it -as a constituent body- wishes to continue the Decrees of November 18 and 24, 1830, relating to the independence of the Belgian people and the exclusion, in perpetuity, of members of the House Orange-Nassau from all power in Belgium.

Entrusts the executive power with the execution of this Decree.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

See here for my reply:

Belgian Abdication, Succession and Constitutional Issues

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20211110_93747539

Has anyone seen anything about this rumor of Gabriel dating Amalia?
Like where did it even come from?!!!

As the article states, it came from a story in the Argentinean magazine Mendoza Post. The story apparently does not actually say that Amalia is dating Gabriel, but merely asserts that "many people are talking about" Amalia dating Gabriel.

https://www.mendozapost.com/mundo/novio-secreto-princesa-amalia-holanda-reina-maxima-zorreguieta/

 

[wartenberg7]

Of course it is all rumours but Guillaume de Nassau x Stéphanie comtesse de Lannoy and Philippe de Belgique x Mathilde comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz show that "traditional" weddings are still possible.

I would not be surprised that a newer generation maybe is more conservative than the previous generation. That Catharina-Amalia has a certain idea about a partner. But at the same time Gabriel can equally fall in love with his fitness trainer, who knows?

Well, I have never heard of Mathilde and Stephanie or their families before they got engaged - and matches like this might of course be possible. But two members of ruling european monarchies falling in love and getting married...? Highly unlikely. I think even back in 1964 the marriage between a Princess of Denmark and a young greek King has become a rarity even then.
Perhaps the marriages of a royal marrying a "commoner" has become so popular since the 2nd half of the 20th century because by marrying someone "from the people", it is the only chance of the Royals to closely connect intimately with and be, literally speaking, in touch with "ordinary, normal people" on a private basis which seems to be highly attractive and fascinating to royal born people...?

 

[Blog Real]

The Belgian royal family seems to be very conservative and traditional. And perhaps it is difficult for someone more common to get into this family.
It would be interesting to see a wedding between Catharina-Amalia and Gabriel from Belgium. Your families would like it. But this is not very likely to happen. Anyway, Catharina-Amália and Gabriel are still very young and it will take them a few years to find the person they will one day marry.
I believe that Philippe and Mathilde's children will marry people who belong to aristocratic families close to the royal family of Belgium.

 

[amaryllus]

The heart wants what the heart wants. Why is the mere idea two Royal young people falling in love and finding themselves compatible so odd and almost dismissed out of hand? The older teens and young Royal adults will be finding out what they desire in a partner and soon have definite opinions if they have not already. We will have to see

 

[wartenberg7]

The heart wants what the heart wants. Why is the mere idea two Royal young people falling in love and finding themselves compatible so odd and almost dismissed out of hand? The older teens and young Royal adults will be finding out what they desire in a partner and soon have definite opinions if they have not already. We will have to see

Perhaps because it hardly ever happened in the past 6 or 7 decades. I think royal people are relieved beyond imagination they do not "have to" marry a cousin or something like that they had to over hundreds of years.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Perhaps because it hardly ever happened in the past 6 or 7 decades.

It may have hardly ever happened in Europe in the past 6 or 7 decades, but that is not true for every monarchy (see Oman).

I think royal people are relieved beyond imagination they do not "have to" marry a cousin or something like that they had to over hundreds of years.

There have been numerous royals over the past few hundred years who have remained unmarried or married a person to whom they were not closely related.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is not thát rare that royals marry other royals for love. Look at the harmonious and loving unions of Georg Friedrich von Preußen and Sophie von Isenburg, Aimone di Savoia-Aosta and Olga of Greece, Aloïs von und zu Liechtenstein and Sophie in Bayern, Henri de Bourbon de Parme and Gabriella von Österreich-Lothringen, Astrid van België and Amedeo von Österreich-Este, etc.

Of course Gabriel can marry anyone he wishes, even one of his own gender if he likes, this of course also includes someone who possibly is royal or noble as well.

 

[Mbruno]

It is not thát rare that royals marry other royals for love. Look at the harmonious and loving unions of Georg Friedrich von Preußen and Sophie von Isenburg, Aimone di Savoia-Aosta and Olga of Greece, Aloïs von und zu Liechtenstein and Sophie in Bayern, Henri de Bourbon de Parme and Gabriella von Österreich-Lothringen, Astrid van België and Amedeo von Österreich-Este, etc.

Of course Gabriel can marry anyone he wishes, even one of his own gender if he likes, this of course also includes someone who possibly is royal or noble as well.

I can imagine Gabriel or one his siblings marrying someone from another (reigning or non-reigning) royal house, but I still think the bride/groom would most likely come from a traditionally Catholic family and, most certainly, not an Orange-Nassau because of the historic circumstances. As I said, it is just not a good dynastic match.


I'm with Blog Real though. A marriage to someone from a good family in the Belgian nobility (following on his father's footsteps) may be more likely than an interdynastic marriage.