Marie Cavallier: Degreed? Assumptions? True or False?

[Kataryn]

translation of one of the articles:

http://www.e-pages.dk/urban/346/fullpdf/full4d4ebef1912d0.pdf

She was just a coffee fetcher and was not
graduating her exams.

Prince Joachim's fiancée and Denmark
future princess, Marie Cavallier,
has according to this week's edition of Look and Listen
made the cv prettier. The Magazine has visited schools
in the U.S. and can prove that the French
woman's education is not as flashy,
as has been described in the press.
Papers issued to the press in connection
with the fiance mention that Marie
Cavallier has a bachelor's degree in marketing,
commerce and IT from Marymount Manhattan College
and that she has studied business conditions
and economics at Babson College in Boston.
But according to the magazine was the French woman
no model student. After two years
studies, she left Babson College without diploma.
She then studied for over three
years at Marymount Manhattan College in New
York. Here she is not as claimed the coveted
'Bachelor of science' in marketing,
commerce and IT, but studying in reality
profession 'liberal arts', which is a softer, less
intensive training.

Again the quoted source just takes the information provided in the Se og Hoer-article from 2008. I have yet to see information from the Danish Court that Marie claimed to be a B.Sc.

Okay, let's assume the journalists of the Danish magazine made a bit of research. Then they found out that if you major in marketing, commerce and IT you get the degree of "Bachelor of Science". Forget the coveted - that's just a journalistic add-on to make it sound much more important than the BA that Marie has.

What they omited is that you can major in eg Communication Arts with minors in marketing, commerce and IT and be awarded the Bachelor of Arts. And you can bring academic credits from other colleges on changing to Marymount. That they don't mention either.

Fact is there is no degree in "liberal Arts" from Marymount College. As can be seen on the homepage you have a choice between 18 major courses, some of which lead to a B.Sc., some to a BA. In addition they offer a choice of 38 minor courses and allow a combination of eg. minors in economics and Business management with a major that leads to the Bachelor of Arts degree.
Source: Academic Programs at MMC - Marymount Manhattan College

What I think the Danish journalists misunderstood (per chance or on purpose I don't know) is that the philosophical and educational foundation of the whole teaching process at Marymount Manhattan College is a "Liberal Arts Foundation". So no matter what you study there to get your degree, you need to have passed courses in which they teach you how to work academically in the "liberal Arts" way. I quoted a bit of that but for the whole philosophy about studying at MMC read here:
A Liberal Arts Foundation - Marymount Manhattan College

It is not to say it is easier to pass a degree there than at other colleges. It is just a different way to teach and learn. This college is ranked as one of the 200 best American Colleges with a Liberal Arts foundation with a general rank of "Tier 2" by U.S. News, which is said to be a very reliable source of information when it comes to academical rankings. They wouldn't be on that list if they "sold" their degrees. Degrees which are internationally accepted.

All this information could be found on the internet if one cared to do the research. I have no doubt that the Danish journalists were able to find this information as well. It is sad that they omitted positive aspects of Marie's education and diminished her academical results through stating that while a B.Sc. is "coveted", her B.A. is not even mentioned.

I have worked for years in the training of future journalists and must say if I had been the editor of this magazine, I would not have accepted this article because anyone with a bit of knowledge about journalism can see that the facts were ignored and statements were obviously taken from people potentially invented or taken out of their context.

As for cooking coffee as part of her duties as a new member of staff - well, we all did that, right, if that was expected from us in our first job after finishing university.... I still cook and fetch coffee sometimes for my collegues... What does that make me? A successless nuisance? Or a friendly coworker?

 

[Benedikte]

Here is another article, translated, s'il vous plaît :

Se og Hør: Marie Cavalliers CV er fup - hun var kaffebrygger - Avisen.dk

"A fierce and well-educated business woman. It is the image that the Crown would have wanted to give of Marie Cavallier, who d. 24 May marries Prince Joachim, and thus become Denmark's new princess.

But today ShowHype prove that Marie's CV might not be quite as flashy.

During the engagement the Court gave a piece of paper that circulated among journalists, which amongst other things that Marie has a bachelor's degree in marketing and IT from Marymount Manhattan College in New York, and she has studied business and economics in two years at Babson College in Boston.

Something like several media, including News newspaper, wrote about.

But it turns out that is not entirely correct. For according to ShowHype who have sought out Marie's past in both Boston and New York, Marie has no such exams.

- Some people make a big impression on others. Marie left no impression of importance, says Michael Chmra has inspectors at Babson College in Boston, where Mary moved in 1994 and after two years of school left it without a diploma.

After her parents paid 110,000 dollars annually for 3 1 / 2, so Marie could move to New York and then, as the press was led to believe, take its highly acclaimed Bachelor of Science degree in marketing, trading and IT at Marymount College.

But Marie studied liberal arts discipline, which is a very soft and general education, which according to David Nye, professor of American studies at Southern University, has little thesis about it. It writes ShowHype that has come into possession of the official papers from Marymount College.

After studying in New York spent Marie Cavallier and a half years as a trainee in the firm DoubleClick, where she, according to the magazine helped with coffee brewing and data entry into company computers - that is the closest she was seven years came on the marketing, commerce and IT, before she in 2001 turned home Shweiz and joined his stepfather's company. "

 

[Kataryn]

Here is another article, translated, s'il vous plaît :

But with the same content - again that Se og Hoer "research"...

Sorry, but I don't buy into that story. Obviously no real reliable paper in Denmark did either...

 

[Benedikte]

And an article from the newspaper Jyllandsposten:
Royal CV: slightly tweaked

Prince Joachim's fiancee, Marie Cavallier, Apparently are not as well-Educated as the royal family has portrayed her, according to See and Hear gossip magazine.

During the engagement, the royal press officer distributed information about the future princess, stating that she has a bachelor's degree in Marketing and IT from Marymount Manhattan College in New York and also has studied business at Babson College in Boston 2 years.

However the magazine did some digging and it turns out that the soon-to-be royal didn't have the qualifications at all. She was an Intern at a New York company, where she made coffee and ENTERED data - and not the marketing hot-shot she was presented to have been before the Engagement to Prince Joachim

 

[sgl]

I work in a university in the US. I can tell you with 100% certainty that US News is avery reliable source when it comes to ranking American universities. They would never put a school on their list that "sold" degrees. NEVER.

Secondly, a BA is in no way inferior to a Bachelor of Science. They are the same exact degree. The only difference is that a BA includes the social sciences and humanities and a BS includes the sciences. There are even some very good Liberal Arts colleges that only award BA degrees. I have a friend who attended a prestigious liberal arts school. He studied business and economics. The degree he earned was a BA. He later went on to be admitted to an even more prestigious (and very well known) university for an MBA (Master of Business Administration degree). That school would NEVER have accepted him if his degree was considered inferior. My point is that Marie has a Bachelor degree that is just as good as any other Bachelor degree. So what it it's in Liberal Arts? Her job as a princess involves the humanities and social sciences. The degree fits. The fact that this story only came from one source (and that source has been stated to be a gossip mag numerous times-especially when they post some made up story about CP Mary). It's funny that some are now using that source as the gospel truth when it applies to this rumor about Marie. If this was a rumor about anyone else in the DRF, that magazine would be cited as nothing more than a gossip rag.

And so what if she made coffee at her first job? I had several meaningless jobs after I graduated from college too. That's typically the case for many people who take a job right after graduating with a bachelor degree.

 

[TLLK]

Again the quoted source just takes the information provided in the Se og Hoer-article from 2008. I have yet to see information from the Danish Court that Marie claimed to be a B.Sc.

Okay, let's assume the journalists of the Danish magazine made a bit of research. Then they found out that if you major in marketing, commerce and IT you get the degree of "Bachelor of Science". Forget the coveted - that's just a journalistic add-on to make it sound much more important than the BA that Marie has.

What they omited is that you can major in eg Communication Arts with minors in marketing, commerce and IT and be awarded the Bachelor of Arts. And you can bring academic credits from other colleges on changing to Marymount. That they don't mention either.

Fact is there is no degree in "liberal Arts" from Marymount College. As can be seen on the homepage you have a choice between 18 major courses, some of which lead to a B.Sc., some to a BA. In addition they offer a choice of 38 minor courses and allow a combination of eg. minors in economics and Business management with a major that leads to the Bachelor of Arts degree.
Source: Academic Programs at MMC - Marymount Manhattan College

What I think the Danish journalists misunderstood (per chance or on purpose I don't know) is that the philosophical and educational foundation of the whole teaching process at Marymount Manhattan College is a "Liberal Arts Foundation". So no matter what you study there to get your degree, you need to have passed courses in which they teach you how to work academically in the "liberal Arts" way. I quoted a bit of that but for the whole philosophy about studying at MMC read here:
A Liberal Arts Foundation - Marymount Manhattan College

It is not to say it is easier to pass a degree there than at other colleges. It is just a different way to teach and learn. This college is ranked as one of the 200 best American Colleges with a Liberal Arts foundation with a general rank of "Tier 2" by U.S. News, which is said to be a very reliable source of information when it comes to academical rankings. They wouldn't be on that list if they "sold" their degrees. Degrees which are internationally accepted.

All this information could be found on the internet if one cared to do the research. I have no doubt that the Danish journalists were able to find this information as well. It is sad that they omitted positive aspects of Marie's education and diminished her academical results through stating that while a B.Sc. is "coveted", her B.A. is not even mentioned.

I have worked for years in the training of future journalists and must say if I had been the editor of this magazine, I would not have accepted this article because anyone with a bit of knowledge about journalism can see that the facts were ignored and statements were obviously taken from people potentially invented or taken out of their context.

As for cooking coffee as part of her duties as a new member of staff - well, we all did that, right, if that was expected from us in our first job after finishing university.... I still cook and fetch coffee sometimes for my collegues... What does that make me? A successless nuisance? Or a friendly coworker?

AFAIK the U.S. News and World Reports annual university rankings are still highly coveted positions. I would accept their findings.

Excellent posts Kataryn and Gatos. I agree that if this was truly a controversy that it would have been investigated by major news sources in Denmark rather than by the tabloid press. (Creating "drama" is their bread and butter after all.)

 

[Zonk]

As someone who also has a BA from a nationally recognized American University, I am a little confused about the "controversy"

According to the royal website Marie has a
The Princess studied international business and economics at Babson College, Boston, Massachusetts, USA (1995-1997) and economics at university in Genève (1994-1995). The Princess has a Bachelor of Arts from Marymount Manhattan College, New York (1997-1999).

Source: The Danish Monarchy - The Royal House - HRH Princess Marie .

Has she claimed to have anything else? And if so, if that has since been corrected what is the big deal?

 

[Sternchen]

I work in a university in the US. I can tell you with 100% certainty that US News is avery reliable source when it comes to ranking American universities. They would never put a school on their list that "sold" degrees. NEVER.

I might have missed something, but where did anyone claim, that a degree was sold? Apparently the informations about Marie which have been given out by the Danish Royal Court were, that she had a B.Sc. and they only corrected it, after S&H confronted them about it.

As for the reliability of S&H, if you guess enough, you will eventually be right.
I am sure nobody in Denmark would think that S&H were more reliable only because they once found something.

 

[sgl]

I might have missed something, but where did anyone claim, that a degree was sold?

It was mentioned in a previous post by Kataryn (who was defending the reputation of Marymount Manhattan College). I also mentioned it to emphasize the integrity of the schools featured in the annual rankings by U.S. News of American universities.

And do you have proof that this is the "one time" S&H were right?

 

[Sternchen]

It was mentioned in a previous post by Kataryn (who was defending the reputation of Marymount Manhattan College). I also mentioned it to emphasize the integrity of the schools featured in the annual rankings by U.S. News of American universities.

But the point is, that I haven't in any of the articles read that S&H claimed that the degree was bought I might have missed it though

And do you have proof that this is the "one time" S&H were right?

I wrote "Apparently" I never said that they were right

 

[Kataryn]

And an article from the newspaper Jyllandsposten:
Royal CV: slightly tweaked

Prince Joachim's fiancee, Marie Cavallier, Apparently are not as well-Educated as the royal family has portrayed her, according to See and Hear gossip magazine.

Same source, even though Jyllandsposten has a good reputation here in Germany as a serious newspaper.

I discussed the reasons why I think that both the information the press officer gave at first and later the official CV is correct, as you can have a BA from Marymount College with minors in business management aka marketing and IT.

But, dear Benedikte, can we agree that if the CV now published on the website of the DRF is wrong in stating that Marie has an academic degree she has not, then two and a half year is quite a long time for Se og Hoer to keep quiet and not present their alleged "proof" in form of official documents? It obviously was that one article which was taken over by other news outlets, but that was sooo long ago without anything newer even though the information about Marie being degreed is still officially circulated.

And may I quote your signature featuring a bonmot by our German academic, politician and poet: Who is the happiest of men? He who values the merits of others, and in their pleasure takes joy even as though t'were his own.

Well, I take pleasure in the fact that Marie has her merits, academical and personal. She seems to me to be a very nice, kind and interesting lady which does a great job representing Denmark as well as keeping her husband happy and raising their kid plus his kids as a loved step-mother. Who wouldn't want the fair Marie as a daughter-in-law (in my case, but unfortunately my son's girlfriend is far from being so nice..maybe that's why I like Marie so much?)

 

[Sternchen]

All the articles are from March 2008 Marie and Joachim were married in May 2008

 

[sgl]

But the point is, that I haven't in any of the articles read that S&H claimed that the degree was bought I might have missed it though


I wrote "Apparently" I never said that they were right

And I never claimed that S&H said that the degree was bought I guess we are misunderstanding each other.

 

[Sternchen]

I know that you never claimed it

 

[Kataryn]

But the point is, that I haven't in any of the articles read that S&H claimed that the degree was bought I might have missed it though

No, noone said that Marie "bought" her degree.

But if a paper publishes how costly a private College is and that Marie failed another college, then there is a bit of the insinuation that she changed colleges because the other one was "easier to pass" as it is a "Liberal Arts" college. It was not explicitely said but well, you could get the idea that her parents' money helped a lot when she is portrayed as a intellectual failure.

As our American members told, this is not true when it comes to Marie's college from which she graduated. But here in Germany in many a paper you can read adverts about getting degrees and even doctorates from American private colleges and university without attending a lesson. So every federal state in Germany has a department at the ministry of education where they check the degree if it is to be accepted or not. So well, yes, there are dubious schools in the US and I just wanted to check if Marymount Manhattan College is a serious one or not. It turned out it is even one of the best of the US, so surely they have high standards.

 

[Sternchen]

I never understood the articles in a way, that they claimed, that Maries parents bought her the degree.
I understood it more that S&H was rather gleeful that they were able to point out a mistake the Danish Royal Court made If S&H was right or wrong might be disputable, but somehow I can imagine, that there was a lot of glee, as (as I can imagine) the Danish Royal Court wouldn't usualy give S&H the time of the day
More something of a payback for not given interviews, informations, etc.

But that's just me

 

[Kataryn]

I never understood the articles in a way, that they claimed, that Maries parents bought her the degree.
I understood it more that S&H was rather gleeful that they were able to point out a mistake the Danish Royal Court made If S&H was right or wrong might be disputable, but somehow I can imagine, that there was a lot of glee, as (as I can imagine) the Danish Royal Court wouldn't usualy give S&H the time of the day
More something of a payback for not given interviews, informations, etc.

But that's just me

Liebes Sternchen,

it has probably a lot to do with the fact that today my main occupation is to edit/co-write books and to be responsible for the accuratesse of it. Thus I always read between the lines automatically and check if there is something said or implied which is not correct, then check the available sources, evaluate them and try to bring the book to best level available (that depends a lot on the publisher and how much he wants to spend for that check!)

It's a lot easier now because of the internet and a lot more difficult, too.. But for me it's a fun job...

Liebe Grüße, Kataryn

 

[Sternchen]

Liebes Sternchen,

it has probably a lot to do with the fact that today my main occupation is to edit/co-write books and to be responsible for the accuratesse of it. Thus I always read between the lines automatically and check if there is something said or implied which is not correct, then check the available sources, evaluate them and try to bring the book to best level available (that depends a lot on the publisher and how much he wants to spend for that check!)

It's a lot easier now because of the internet and a lot more difficult, too.. But for me it's a fun job...

Liebe Grüße, Kataryn

Liebe Kataryn,

I can imagine that it is a funny but also challenging job

Liebe Grüße,

Sternchen

 

[marlene]

I was just reading an article about the boarding school that Marie went to in switzerland (Beausolieil) and it is one of the most expensive in the world with a yearly tuition of over $100,000 a year.I had no idea that her family were that wealthy.Sorry if I put this in the wrong post as I didn't know exactly where to post it.

 

[tommy100]

I read that recently, I think in connection with Prince Felix of Luxembourgs engagement, his fiancée also went to the same school where the basic schools fees work out at €60,000 a year, so Marie must have come from a wealthy family to be able to afford it.

 

[Mariel]

I have not been following this thread, nor know a lot about Marie. However, I doubt one could buy a degree from Marymount College, if it is the same Marymount I am familiar with. This is, or was, a prestigious Catholic college and, yes, expensive, and not for quickie degrees. That said, a "liberal studies" course might be easier than a business course. I chose a liberal studies course because I was not up to doing a more demanding degree.
But my degrees did turn into a long career teaching in college.
Most students at Marymount are Catholic, but I believe the DRF is Protestant?

 

[TLLK]

I have not been following this thread, nor know a lot about Marie. However, I doubt one could buy a degree from Marymount College, if it is the same Marymount I am familiar with. This is, or was, a prestigious Catholic college and, yes, expensive, and not for quickie degrees. That said, a "liberal studies" course might be easier than a business course. I chose a liberal studies course because I was not up to doing a more demanding degree.
But my degrees did turn into a long career teaching in college.
Most students at Marymount are Catholic, but I believe the DRF is Protestant?

Yes the DRF is Lutheran.

 

[soraya]

Marie was catholic before marrying Joachim

 

[MARG]

Did she remain Roman Catholic or was she required to convert to Protestant Lutheran? Just asking as Princess Maxima in the Netherlands was not required to convert.

 

[soraya]

Did she remain Roman Catholic or was she required to convert to Protestant Lutheran? Just asking as Princess Maxima in the Netherlands was not required to convert.

She converted to lutheran as Mary did.
Both renounced their nationalities too.

 

[Rocketmom]

I know people that have lived here in America for 12 years and still can not speak english, but if it is true that her english is not good how is possible that she graduated?

There are many people who were born in the U.S. who can't speak English. Just listen to many of our college athletes.

 

[Tilia C.]

Did she remain Roman Catholic or was she required to convert to Protestant Lutheran? Just asking as Princess Maxima in the Netherlands was not required to convert.

She did not have to convert. Marie has spoken about it in one of her early interviews. She explained that she had looked into the Lutheran faith and found that in essence it was not so different form the catholic faith. At least not when it came to those aspects of religion that she cared most for. So she decided to convert, so that she would share the faith of her family. It was voluntary.

There are many people who were born in the U.S. who can't speak English. Just listen to many of our college athletes.

She did not graduate. She has acknowledged that in interviews as well. But she took several courses and her English clearly is/was good enough to follow them. Btw, having an accent or making grammatical mistakes here and there does not prevent anybody from graduating, as long as they have the necessary knowledge about the subject.

 

[helenbeee]

What does it matter she is obviously a very smart woman. I know a lot people with degrees who are ignorant in other areas of life. I think she has proven she doesnt need a piece of paper to prove how smart she is.

 

[Rocketmom]

Does it matter if she has a degree? In the strictest sense, everyone "buys" a degree in that they pay tuition, unless they are a full scholarship student. Marie seems sweet and appears to fit in with the family well.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Does it matter if she has a degree? In the strictest sense, everyone "buys" a degree in that they pay tuition, unless they are a full scholarship student. Marie seems sweet and appears to fit in with the family well.

You don't buy a degree - you earn it. There's a difference.

Does it matter if she has a degree? I don't see it as a job requirement for her, so no.