Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and other claimants to the Throne 2: Oct '06-Jun '08

[Warren]

Welcome to part 2 of the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna thread.​

Since any discussion of the Headship of the Romanov dynasty or its restoration necessarily involves the Grand Duchess,
this thread is the appropriate place for such issues as well as current news on the Grand Duchess herself.​

Part 1 can be found here​

 

[Toledo]

Warren, I love the thread's great opening with the Double Headed Eagle!
Here is something related to Grand Duchess Maria (the lead Romanov) and all her cousins in general, it's a long article so I placed one quote that relates Grand Duchess Maria and her family:

Monarchist Past and Future
Comment by Andrei Zolotov Jr.
September 28, 2006 Russia Profile

...Yet any discussion of the monarchist idea in Russia leads to several major stumbling blocks. First, are we talking about a constitutional or an absolute monarchy? In the 1990s, the talk was about the constitutional one (6 percent are in favor according to the latest VTsIOM survey). Project Russia calls for the absolute one (3 percent support it in the VTsIOM poll). In a 2002 interview, Putin ruled out the former, but jokingly defended the latter. Second, would the blessing of the Russian Orthodox Church be sufficient to legitimize a new form of government in the eyes of the country’s non-Orthodox and atheist minority? And third, who would be the new Tsar, when the Romanovs are too remote and divided? How do you convene today the new Council of the Estates to elect the new Tsar and what should the criteria be? Or do you elect the Constitutional Assembly according to the laws of 1917?

 

[lord_rankin]

Thanks Toledo that was a great article!

 

[Toledo]

Prosecutors reject amicable deal in Romanov rehabilitation case
Sept 21, 2006

2 quotes from the article:

...The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has rejected an out-of-court settlement in a lawsuit filed by Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna Romanov following a refusal by the Prosecutor General's Office to grant rehabilitation to Russia's last Emperor Nicholas II and members of his family, who were executed in 1918...

"...The Prosecutor General's Office denies that the tsarist family, which was kept in custody in a totalitarian state, was a victim of political repressions," he said..."

 

[RubyPrincess168]

I'm a little confused about that article. What was she trying achieve with the lawsuit? Was she trying to get property & money that once belong to Tsar Nicholas II?

 

[BeatrixFan]

No, she was trying to have the last Romanovs cleared of any charges and she wanted an apology for their murder as political prisoners.

 

[Toledo]

That's right, Beatrixfan!
Words carry a lot of weight in history and Grand Duchess Maria was trying her best to clear the negativity associated with the execution of Czar Nicholas and his family. I wonder if she would be taking the case to an international court or if there is a process in Russia to appeal the decision. Anyone fluent in 'legal-eze' and other legal technicalities?

 

[RubyPrincess168]

No, she was trying to have the last Romanovs cleared of any charges and she wanted an apology for their murder as political prisoners.

I've done alot of reading about the last part of their lives, but I don't remember what they were "charged" with. Does anyone know?

 

[lord_rankin]

I have also read much of there lives and cannot recall exact charges. In the beginning the Provisional Government under Kerensky put them under house arrest because they wanted to interrogate members of the court and imperial government to build a case that would see the Tsar brought to trial. But since the Provisional Government was so unstable and the Bolsheviks were growing in strength they were relocated and no charges were filed. The Bolsheviks once in power, according to what I have read, constantly were trying to implicate the Imperial Family in a coup attempt. This would have been high treason and I believe that would have been the biggest charge.
When Yurovsky read out there death sentence I do not believe he mentioned that in it however. I will double check and post again.

 

[lord_rankin]

I checked and according to Yurovsky he told them they were ordered to be shot for trying to flee the country.

 

[Toledo]

So Grand Duchess Maria's claim have some strong basis to defend her case. I mean, did they go to any trial between the initial capture to the execution?

 

[lord_rankin]

No I am afraid not. I think if that had happened she would definetly have a
much stronger case for rehabilitation. Unfortunately "justice" as the Bolsheviks saw it was dispensed without the benefit of a trial. I beleive that is the Grand Duchess Maria's stance, that they should be rehabilitated because they were executed by the state without a trial. I think if she can appeal she should.

 

[Toledo]

Russia: Monarchist Nostalgia Remains Powerful
Victor Yasmann, Radio Free Europe
October 2, 2006

some quotes from the above article:

"...The recent reburial of the remains of Maria Fyodorovna, the Danish princess who married the future Aleksandr III of Russia in 1866, is the latest episode in a long-standing effort to cultivate the idea of restoring the monarchy in Russia.
The idea gained currency under President Boris Yeltsin in 1997, when his close circle, alarmed by the Russian president's ailing health, started to think about a possible successor. Some of them turned their attention to the living descendents of the Romanov dynasty. That same year, renovation work began at the Kremlin to restore the coronation hall and the tsar's throne. In 1998, Yeltsin attended a state ceremony to bury the remains of the last Russian emperor, Nicolas II, and his family, who were killed by the Bolsheviks in 1918....


...Putin-Era Monarchism
But under Russian President Vladimir Putin interest in Russia's imperial and monarchical past grew legs once again. In 2000, the Russian Orthodox Church canonized Nicolas II and his family. Since that time, Russia has seen a boom in the number of monarchist organizations...

...A Coordinated Campaign?
The amount of television coverage certainly suggests the Kremlin's involvement in -- or, at the least, tacit approval -- of monarchist revivalism. And the state's hand has been revealed in other places. In 2005, a book called "Project Russia," by unnamed authors, appeared on the website of a state security veterans organization in St. Petersburg. The book argues that Russia was a monarchy for 1,000 years and, even after 1917, it became a republic only nominally.
The book harshly criticizes Western-style electoral systems and advocates the gradual revival of Russia's monarchy between 2008 and 2016...

...The idea of monarchy is intrinsically tied up with the notion of succession, which makes it of special interest to Russia's current political elite, for whom that issue is a perpetual problem. Many Putin supporters would relish the idea of an anointed successor rather than have to bother with a presidential election.

 

[Toledo]

Even though the article puts into question which Romanov is the one viewed as the candidate to restore, all we have to do is check out who was standing next to the Danish Royalty as their Russian counterpart and equal, none other than Grand Duchess Maria Vladivirovna. If Putin is the one behind all this then Grand Duchess Maria and /or her son could be the ones the Kremlin has an eye on as the most appropiate candidates for a restoration.
The Grand Duchess has worked hard not only to keep the idea of the restoration of monarchy alive, but to change the negative views about the Romanov family and move on toward the future. Her cousins, from what I've read so far, have spent more energy attacking her than helping eliminate that negativity that placed the Romanovs as a modern version of the French Bourbon King Louis XVI and his family.

 

[Katya]

Ugh! I sincerely hope that if their is a restoration of the monarchy in Russia they will choose someone other than Maria Vladimirovna. I find her to be very arrogant and unappealing, and I do not see anything in her of the majestic air that the Romanov rulers had. There has to be someone else in the Romanov family, maybe from a younger generation, with a good head on their shoulders and who worries more about the good of Russia and less about whose rank is legitimate under the old dynastic laws.

 

[Benjamin]

Maria doesn't worry about anything of that sort, Katya. Only her commoner cousins focus on that whole issue.

And on what basis do you claim that she is "very arrogant and unappealing"? Have you met the Grand Duchess?

 

[RubyPrincess168]

I think Grand Duke Kyril's betrayal of the monarchy should be enough to exclude him and his branch (ie "Grand Duchess" Maria and her son "Grand Duke" Georgi) from the succession. Then there's the fact that his wife and mother did not convert to Orthodox before their marriages, and that Grand Duke Kyril married in defience of Tsar Nicholas. On both of these points he violates the laws of succession that were in place at the time thereby excluding himself and his heirs from the line of succession.

Regardless, I think the fighting between the GD Maria and the Head of the Romonav Family is such that a true heir will never be decided on.

 

[Toledo]

Ugh! I sincerely hope that if their is a restoration of the monarchy in Russia they will choose someone other than Maria Vladimirovna. I find her to be very arrogant and unappealing, and I do not see anything in her of the majestic air that the Romanov rulers had. There has to be someone else in the Romanov family, maybe from a younger generation, with a good head on their shoulders and who worries more about the good of Russia and less about whose rank is legitimate under the old dynastic laws.

I get a very different impresion from the pictures and articles I've seen and read (many posted in this forum) about her. She has a matronly appeal and the way she has taken care of her elderly mother and protected her son shows, at least to me, than she can think of other people besides herself. She might have the charisma needed to become a very popular figure, and that is always a winning card when you place on a person the responsibility of representing a nation.
If there is to be a restoration the candidate has to be something more than a statuesque royal that looks good on a stamp. You need a communicator, a mediator than can help heal all the bad feelings associated with the previous Romanovs and turn them into a positive.
And what better way to start anew than a restoration which will allow the first born, male or female, to take over as head of the family. She is the only female pretender I can think of. That's why I pointed out in the previous Grand Duchess thread that had she been a male some of the criticisms toward her would have been different.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

And what better way to start anew than a restoration which will allow the first born, male or female, to take over as head of the family. She is the only female pretender I can think of. That's why I pointed out in the previous Grand Duchess thread that had she been a male some of the criticisms toward her would have been different.

Had been GD Marie been born a male, I'm sure the issue of pretender to the throne wouldn't be as big a deal. But the laws of succession in place at the time the monarchy ended clearly stated that the heir is to be male as long as there are males to inherit the throne. Grand Duke Kryil disqualified himself and his descendants by the reasons I stated above. Once the monarchy is restored to the rightful heir, I am all in favor to ammended the laws, if possible, to let females inherit over males, if they are the first born.

 

[Katya]

I know that her being a female creates an even bigger issue with the succession question but at the same time if she had been born a man there would still be problems. The descendents of Kyril Vladimirovich are always going to claim that they are the true heirs of the dynasty, while others are going to say that that it is impossible. It is a very frustrating issue because no matter what the Pauline laws say, each side tries to twist them to fit their own personal agenda.
And no I have not met Maria but I find anyone who will say that their relatives are not "true Romanovs" because their parents did not marry other royals to be extremely arrogant. I agree that she has a matronly quality, i.e. she lacks the style that the Romanov rules of the past had.

 

[Katya]

Ruby Princess, thanks for bringing up the issue of Kyril's betrayal of the monarchy. Had he not already been banned from the succession by the Pauline laws, this would surely remove him as a candidate, at least in my eyes. Kyril Vladimirovich's mother, Maria Pavlovna, was not a member of the Orthodox church at the time of his birth, thus he and his siblings would not have been able to inherit the throne. Maria Pavlovna (the elder) only became Orthodox when she thought there might be a chance for one of her sons to become Tsar (after the death of Grand Duke Georgi Nikolaievich and before the birth of Aleksei).

 

[branchg]

The Emperor approved the marriage of Victoria to Grand Duke Cyril and declared their daughter a princess of the imperial blood with the rank of Highness. He acted harshly at first because The Empress was furious at Victoria for divorcing her brother, Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse.

Regardless of politics, Cyril was the rightful Head of the House under the Pauline Law after the death of Grand Duke Michael. His son, Vladimir, was the rightful Head of the House after the death of his father.

Maria's position is controversial because her mother, Princess Leonida Bagration, was not royal under the Pauline Law as a noble subject of The Tsar in Imperial Russia. There is no question this marriage would not have been considered equal under Imperial rule, however, Grand Duke Vladimir was the dejure Emperor and ruled it was.

She certainly has the strongest claim to the throne, despite the question of her mother's status, and is arguably the rightful Head of the House.

 

[Katya]

I am not talking about Kyril's marriage to Victoria Melita, I am talking about his father's marriage to Maria Pavlovna. She was not Orthodox at the time of their marriage, thus making any offspring of hers (including Kyril) ineligible to inherit the throne. Thus from the time of his birth, no matter what he or anyone else said, was legally unable to inherit the throne of Russia.

 

[Benjamin]

Vladimir and Maria's children were Grand Dukes and a Grand Duchess with full succession rights. There isn't any information to the contrary.

Article 185 of Russia's Fundamental Laws required that only the heir apparent or heir presumptive of the Emperor needed to marry an Orthodox bride. Therefore Maria Pavlovna's Lutheranism wasn't an issue because when she married Vladimir he wasn't either of those things.

 

[lord_rankin]

Thank you Benjamin I was gonna post that as well. People try to make that an issue (Cyril's mother) all the time in this forum and it just doesn't hold up.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

Article 185 of Russia's Fundamental Laws required that only the heir apparent or heir presumptive of the Emperor needed to marry an Orthodox bride. Therefore Maria Pavlovna's Lutheranism wasn't an issue because when she married Vladimir he wasn't either of those things.

But wouldn't it then be an issue when he did become heir apparent?

 

[Benjamin]

No, because the law only refers to marrying an Orthodox bride, not having an Orthodox wife. It's sort of a loophole, I suppose.

 

[branchg]

I am not talking about Kyril's marriage to Victoria Melita, I am talking about his father's marriage to Maria Pavlovna. She was not Orthodox at the time of their marriage, thus making any offspring of hers (including Kyril) ineligible to inherit the throne. Thus from the time of his birth, no matter what he or anyone else said, was legally unable to inherit the throne of Russia.

Maria Pavlovna converted to Orthodoxy in 1908 and was recognized as "Orthodox Grand Duchess" officially by The Emperor. Given that point, there was nothing under the Pauline Law disbarring Cyril from succeeding to the throne.

 

[branchg]

No, because the law only refers to marrying an Orthodox bride, not having an Orthodox wife. It's sort of a loophole, I suppose.

The Tsarevitch and Grand Duke Michael both stood before Cyril in line to the throne in 1908 when Maria Pavlovna converted. Given that Grand Duke Michael had married morganatically, it stood to reason Cyril was next in the event the Tsarevitch didn't survive.

 

[Toledo]

although this links relates to the other thread about the Reburial, the article has a focus on Grand Duchess Maria Vladivirovna and her Romanov Family leadership status discussed here:

Russia buries a tsaritsa with love and grandeur
By Tony Halpin in St Petersburg

quote:

...The split within the Romanov dynasty over the Tsar’s true heir was evident, however. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna was placed in the centre section of the cathedral next to Prince Michael, former King Constantine of Greece and Denmark’s Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary, while Prince Nicholas Romanov and the majority of family members, who dispute her claim to be the titular Empress of Russia, stood at the side...