Future Titles of Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane's Spouses

[Marengo]

I do not believe that the religion was in any way involved in either matter, though perhaps in public perception it was.

Princess Irene married a pretender to a foreign throne. That is why the government did not want to support it.

In the case of Princess Christina: it was her own wish not to ask for permission.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The second and fourth daughter of Queen Juliana married without an Act of Consent. The third and fourth son of Princess Margriet as well the second son of Queen Beatrix went the same way. Technically the Constitution has no possibility for a successor to renounce his or her rights.

 

[lucien]

I do not believe that the religion was in any way involved in either matter, though perhaps in public perception it was.

Princess Irene married a pretender to a foreign throne. That is why the government did not want to support it.

In the case of Princess Christina: it was her own wish not to ask for permission.

True...allthough,in the 60's there still was a HUGE outcry by the then protestant churchgoers especially,a Princess of the protestant Dutch RF marrying a Roman Catholic?Really...it was a shocker of sorts to many of them.

And the Dutch saying: "Twee geloven op een kussen daar slaapt de duivel tussen " was heard more then once (sorry,I fail to translate at this point)..

Little did people know at the time that our RF,from Wilhelmina down,were not exactly so frugally tied up to a Faith,they had a broader,much broader mind then was known,or to be accepted,even at that time.

 

[lucien]

I hope Amalia will marry Prince Gabriel And who know, maybe Alexia will marry prince Christian ?

No-one really cares,and more...it's on nobodies mind,too far in the future.
All the Dutch care for is happiness for all so including any member of the RF!
And f they would come home with anyone they love then that is what counts,may that be a cute kid or a cute gall.This is NL so nothing is out of the ordinary nor a real shocker.Let all follow their heart.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

And if king Willem Alexander abdicate he and Máxima return to prince and princess of the Netherlands ?

It is even vested in Law:

Act of 30th May 2002 on the (membership of the) Royal House

Article 8, first part:

De vermoedelijke opvolger van de Koning en de Koning die afstand van het koningschap heeft gedaan dragen de titel Prins (Prinses) der Nederlanden.

The presumed successor of the King, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands.

Article 9, first part:

De Koning, diens vermoedelijke opvolger en de Koning die afstand van het koningschap heeft gedaan, dragen de titel Prins (Prinses) van Oranje-Nassau.

The King, his presumed successor, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau.

As far as I can tell, the Act on the Membership of the Royal House does not preclude the former monarch from continuing the title of King (Queen) on top of the titles Prince(ss) of the Netherlands and Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The heir also bears the last two titles in conjunction with the title Prince(ss) of Orange.

I hope Amalia will marry Prince Gabriel

It would be illegal in Belgium.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

It would be illegal in Belgium.

But it probably wouldn't be illegal in the Netherlands.

The point of that article is to list silly laws that are still on the books. I doubt that in this day and age Belgium hates the Netherlands the way it did in the early 19th century when the law was written and they could get rid of this law if need be.

 

[Countessmeout]

Not that I think we will ever see such a royal marriage, it is a Belgian law. Since Amalia is heir, they would marry in the Netherlands where that isn't the law. If the law was an issue, Gabe would simply have to renounce his place in thee Belgium royal family. As he would be joining thee DRF anyways, that would be little issue.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

As far as I can tell, the Act on the Membership of the Royal House does not preclude the former monarch from continuing the title of King (Queen) on top of the titles Prince(ss) of the Netherlands and Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The heir also bears the last two titles in conjunction with the title Prince(ss) of Orange.



It would be illegal in Belgium.

The Explanatory Memorandum and the Advice of the Council of State are always attached to a Bill. In the Memorandum can be read that the practice as developed since 1900 needed codification in the legislation.

In the Memorandum is explained that the King can not be Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands. The two titles bite each other. When in the Act is stated that the presumed successor of the King, as well the King who has abdicated the kingship bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, then this is clear.

Add to this the examples set by three consecutive predecessors of the current King, then King Willem-Alexander will revert to the style he had before being the King or the Heir. Like his mother Beatrix, his grandmother Juliana and his great-grandmother Wilhelmina: they form "the existing practice which needs codification in the legislation".

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Explanatory Memorandum attached to the Royal House Act made clear that the lawmaker sees the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands as "a functional title". The title can only be used by members of the Royal House (that is why Prince Friso lost it in 2004) together with the membership.

The Explanatory memorandum also made a difference in members which regularly exercise the royal function and members which never or only incidentally will do so. The Explanatory Memorandum explained that the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands is for life and should ideally only be used for members who indeed are so their life long. This group is largely covered by the Act Financial Statute Royal House: the present King, the former King, the future King and their spouses.

The Explanatory Memorandum sees the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau as a title of the royal dynasty. It is the recommendation of the lawmaker to keep the titles Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands and Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau more ore less on the same track. This title implies a close bond to the person of the Sovereign. That is why Prince Friso remained Prince of Orange-Nassau. He left the Royal House but of course remained a son of the Sovereign, a prince of the royal dynasty.

His daughters Luana and Zaria are no members of the Royal House and, like their cousins Eloïse, Claus-Casimir and Eleonore, and are -like them- not so close related to the Sovereign (Willem-Alexander is an uncle, Catharina-Amalia is a cousin). Therefore the wish to create another title for them: Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. That title is hereditary according the rules of the Netherlands nobility system.

Overseeing this: it is unlikely a spouse of Princess Alexia or Princess Ariane will become Prince of the Netherlands or Prince of Orange-Nassau. Pieter van Vollenhoven, Laurentien Brinkhorst, Marilène van den Broek and Annette Sekrève did not acquire any nobility or title due to their marriages to a member of the Royal House.

 

[Mbruno]

I hope Amalia will marry Prince Gabriel And who know, maybe Alexia will marry prince Christian ?

If I am not mistaken, members of the Belgian royal house were legally forbidden from marrying any member of the House of Orange-Nassau. I am not sure if that rule is still in force. Does anybody know ?

 

[Marengo]

It was in force from 1830 onwards. When Amalia was born the matter was given some publicity. In 2014 the law was still unchanged.

http://www.joop.nl/kijk-nou/prinses-amalia-mag-niet-met-belgische-prins-trouwen

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Explanatory Memorandum and the Advice of the Council of State are always attached to a Bill. In the Memorandum can be read that the practice as developed since 1900 needed codification in the legislation.

In the Memorandum is explained that the King can not be Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands. The two titles bite each other. When in the Act is stated that the presumed successor of the King, as well the King who has abdicated the kingship bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, then this is clear.

I stand corrected.

Do you have a link to the Explanatory Memorandum and the Advice of the Council of State?

If King Willem-Alexander wished to be addressed as King after his abdication, could he have it as a courtesy title just as Queen Máxima does?

 

[Koningin]

And what about titles of spouses of Zaria, Luana, Eloise, Claus-Casimir and Leonore ? I think wife of C-C will be Countess. Will Eloise, Leonore, Zaria and Luana renounce the title ?

 

[Lee-Z]

How can we possibly tell now what they will do in 10-20 years?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

And what about titles of spouses of Zaria, Luana, Eloise, Claus-Casimir and Leonore ? I think wife of C-C will be Countess. Will Eloise, Leonore, Zaria and Luana renounce the title ?

The daughters of Prince Friso and the children of Prince Constantijn are all have the surname Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg, the title Graaf (Gravin) van Oranje-Nassau and the noble predicate Jonkheer van Amsberg. As in Dutch name law it is not allowed to cumulate several titles in a surname, usually the highest title is used in combination with the surname: Graaf (Gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.

According the Nobility Act 1994, noble titles are hereditary via the male lineage. There were several attempts to make it hereditary in both the male and the female lineage. The Government has refused to do this. Argument: with the Nobility Act 1994 a sort of "glass dome" has been placed over "a historic institute". There are no new ennoblements (apart from members of the Royal House) and so the number of nobles will, generation by generation, become smaller. It is not the wish of the Government to modernize the nobility system because this would only lead to a revival of a historic institute, lead to more aristocrats, which was never the intention.

As the situation is as now, only Claus-Casimir is the one who can procreate the comital House Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. If he gets no sons, it will become extinct with himself or his eventual daughters.

 

[Marengo]

And what about titles of spouses of Zaria, Luana, Eloise, Claus-Casimir and Leonore ? I think wife of C-C will be Countess. Will Eloise, Leonore, Zaria and Luana renounce the title ?

There are no laws about losing noble titles in the Netherlands. There is a possibility to dismiss the title, but this only happened 7 times, 5 times on the request of the title holders.The last time was in 1984. Jhr. Pieter van beyma wanted to drop his title. The high counsil of the nobility refused his request. After this the jonkheer went to the socialist television station and in the end he was allowed to drop his title.

Since none of the countesses or count is a member of the royal house, none of their marriages will have to be approved by parlament.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]

Since none of the countesses or count is a member of the royal house, none of their marriages will have to be approved by parlament.

Countess Eloïse, Count Claus-Casimir and Countess Eleonore are still in the line of succession. If they wish to remain a successor, they still need an Act of Consent for their marriage. But: with Amalia, Alexia and Ariane in mind: it looks unlikely that the Countesses and the Count will request a formal consent.

Line of succession:
1. The Princess of Orange (1st daughter of the King)*
2. Princess Alexia (2nd daughter of the King)*
3. Princess Ariane (3rd daughter of the King)*
4. Prince Constantijn (brother of the King)*
-----------------------------------------------------
5. Countess Eloïse (niece of the King)
6. Count Claus-Casimir (nephew of the King)
7. Countess Eleonore (niece of the King)
8. Princess Margriet (aunt of the King)**

* = member of the Royal House by the Royal House Act 2002
** = member of the Royal House by special remainder in the Royal House Act 2002

 

[lucien]

And what about titles of spouses of Zaria, Luana, Eloise, Claus-Casimir and Leonore ? I think wife of C-C will be Countess. Will Eloise, Leonore, Zaria and Luana renounce the title ?

What happens if the sky falls down?Will we all be blue?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If Princess Alexia or Princess Ariane married a Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont, which of their titles is the highest: Princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont or Princess of Orange-Nassau?

 

[Mbruno]

Not that I think we will ever see such a royal marriage, it is a Belgian law. Since Amalia is heir, they would marry in the Netherlands where that isn't the law. If the law was an issue, Gabe would simply have to renounce his place in thee Belgium royal family. As he would be joining thee DRF anyways, that would be little issue.

I am not familiar with the exact wording of the Belgian law , but assuming the marriage would be invalid in Belgium, any issue would be illegitimate from the Belgian perspective and, therefore, excluded from the Belgian line of succession, which, incidentally, was the goal of the law in the first place, I.e. to prevent an Orange-Nassau from ever becoming King of the Belgians.

Prince Gabriel’s “ perfect match” IMHO would be the Princess of Asturias ( similar age, same religious denomination, etc.) .

If Princess Alexia or Princess Ariane married a Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont, which of their titles is the highest: Princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont or Princess of Orange-Nassau?

Their highest title would be Princess of the Netherlands, which they will keep as long as they are members of the Dutch Royal House.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If Princess Alexia or Princess Ariane married a Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont, which of their titles is the highest: Princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont or Princess of Orange-Nassau?

In times past, if HRH Princess Alexia of the Netherlands married HSH Prince XX of Waldeck and Pyrmont, she would have moved to Waldeck and Pyrmont and been known as HRH Princess XX of Waldeck and Pyrmont or HRH Princess Alexia of Waldeck and Pyrmont (I do not know if the wives of Princes of Waldeck and Pyrmont were known by their husbands' first names). She would remain a Princess of the Netherlands and a Princess of Orange-Nassau, but she would use the title of her husband.

I do not know what would happen today.

 

[Mbruno]

In times past, if HRH Princess Alexia of the Netherlands married HSH Prince XX of Waldeck and Pyrmont, she would have moved to Waldeck and Pyrmont and been known as HRH Princess XX of Waldeck and Pyrmont or HRH Princess Alexia of Waldeck and Pyrmont (I do not know if the wives of Princes of Waldeck and Pyrmont were known by their husbands' first names). She would remain a Princess of the Netherlands and a Princess of Orange-Nassau, but she would use the title of her husband.

I do not know what would happen today.

She would use her husband’s title , but the style of her Dutch title ( HRH) , which is higher in rank than Her husband’s HSH.

Exactly like BTW Sophie of Liechtenstein, who uses her Bavarian HRH even though her husband is only an HSH.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

She would use her husband’s title , but the style of her Dutch title ( HRH) , which is higher in rank than Her husband’s HSH.

Exactly like BTW Sophie is Liechtenstein, who uses her Bavarian HRH even though her husband is only an HSH.

But would Alexia follow the same tradition of using her husband's title if she married a prince from a non-reigning family and continued to live in the Netherlands? Was Princess Irene known as Princess Irene of the Netherlands while she was still married to Carlos Hugo, or was she known by one of her husband's titles of pretense?

 

[Mbruno]

But would Alexia follow the same tradition of using her husband's title if she married a prince from a non-reigning family and continued to live in the Netherlands? Was Princess Irene known as Princess Irene of the Netherlands while she was still married to Carlos Hugo, or was she known by one of her husband's titles of pretense?

Princess Astrid’s family uses their Austrian titles and styles even within Belgium itself as shown by Anna Astrid’s birth certificate, but. I don’t know what Alexia would do in a similar situation.

Irene’s chiildren’s Bourbon-Parme titles were, I think, legally incorporated by royal decree into the nobility of the Netherlands, and that is why her children use them in the Netherlands itself. Princess Irene herself doesn’t use a Bourbon-Parme title and the 2002 Act on Membership of the Royal House contains a special remainder that enables her to keep her title of Princess of the Netherlands even though she is no longer a member of the Dutch Royal House.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Princess Astrid’s family uses their Austrian titles and styles even within Belgium itself as shown by Anna Astrid’s birth certificate, but. I don’t know what Alexia would do in a similar situation.

Apologies if my meaning was unclear; I meant the title which they use for everyday purposes, as opposed to the full titles used on documents such as birth certificates. For illustration, while the Belgian monarchy has regarded Princess Astrid as both an HRH Princess of Belgium and an HI&RH Archduchess of Austria-Este since her marriage to Lorenz (and an HSH(?) Duchess of Saxony since 2015), the only titles and styles they regularly used to address her were "HI&RH Archduchess Lorenz/Astrid of Austria-Este" until 1991 and "HRH Princess Astrid of Belgium" after 1991.

Should Alexia follow the example of Astrid of Belgium after 1991, she would continue to use "HRH Princess Alexia of the Netherlands" regardless of her husband's title or style.

Irene’s chiildren’s Bourbon-Parme titles were, I think, legally incorporated by royal decree into the nobility of the Netherlands, and that is why her children use them in the Netherlands itself. Princess Irene herself doesn’t use a Bourbon-Parme title and the 2002 Act on Membership of the Royal House contains a special remainder that enables her to keep her title of Princess of the Netherlands even though she is no longer a member of the Dutch Royal House.

I wonder what title she used prior to her divorce from Carlos Hugo, when she and her husband lived abroad (Princess Irene and her husband were divorced long before her children's titles were incorporated into the nobility of the Netherlands).

 

[Somebody]

And what about titles of spouses of Zaria, Luana, Eloise, Claus-Casimir and Leonore ? I think wife of C-C will be Countess. Will Eloise, Leonore, Zaria and Luana renounce the title ?

They will keep the title they currently have. Legally their name nor title will change. They might decide to be either known by their maiden name or taken on their husbsnd's surname but legally thry will remain what thry are from birth (for example Mabel and Laurentien do use Van Oranje as a surname but legally their surnames are Brinkhorst and Wisse Smit, respectively (Mabel's surname did legally change at one point in her life from Los to Wisse Smit).

 

[Somebody]

I wonder what title she used prior to her divorce from Carlos Hugo, when she and her husband lived abroad (Princess Irene and her husband were divorced long before her children's titles were incorporated into the nobility of the Netherlands).

Great question. Although I don't think it will help us much to know what would be done 2 generations down the line.

Just FYI: princess Irene in practice doesn't use '(princess) of the Netherlands' but (princess) of Lippe-Biesterfeld.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In Ebenbürtige marriages the bride followed the style of her royal husband:

H.K.H. prinses Marianne van Pruisen, prinses der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau.

H.K.H. prinses Sophie, groothertogin van Saksen-Weimar-Eisenach, prinses der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau.

H.K.H. prinses Irene van Bourbon-Parma, prinses der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld.




The two brides whom married Ebenbürtig but would become Queen, kept their Dutch titles in front and just had their husband's style as an addition:

H.K.H. prinses Wilhelmina der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, hertogin van Mecklenburg

H.K.H. prinses Juliana der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, hertogin van Mecklenburg, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld




The three princesses whom did not marry Ebenbürtig kept their Dutch titles and just had their husband's surname as an addition:

H.K.H. prinses Beatrix der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld, mevrouw Van Amsberg.


H.K.H. prinses Margriet der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld, mevrouw Van Vollenhoven.

H.K.H. prinses Christina der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld, mevrouw Guillermo.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The three princesses whom did not marry Ebenbürtig kept their Dutch titles and just had their husband's surname as an addition:

H.K.H. prinses Beatrix der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld, mevrouw Van Amsberg.


H.K.H. prinses Margriet der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld, mevrouw Van Vollenhoven.

H.K.H. prinses Christina der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, prinses van Lippe-Biesterfeld, mevrouw Guillermo.

Did the princesses have "mevrouw Van Amsberg/Van Vollenhoven/Guillermo" in official documents, and if not, when were they styled with their husband's surname?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, Mevrouw van Amsberg is used in official communiqués:

https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2002-41.html


In the Benelux, the wife of a jonkheer is a mevrouw.
The daughter of a jonkheer however is a jonkvrouw.


In the French there is no real translation for the predicate jonkheer / jonkvrouw.

In official correspondence often is used: Messire (instead of Monsieur), Dame (instead of Madame) and Demoiselle (instead of Mademoiselle) to differentiate them.

A jonkheer / jonkvrouw belongs to the nobility without having a title.


Example: https://books.google.nl/books?id=OK...#v=onepage&q=messire patrick d'udekem&f=false