Charlene and her African Heritage

[Nadine]

People need to realize that you can't use African to describe her heritage.
Even though Benoni is a craphole, she still had a better life than 90% of other Africans as a white South African. Her life experiences are completely different than most Africans.

As a South African she also grew up watching American soaps and television, eating hamburgers and KFC. Her family probably had a maid and gardener.

Somebody like Chelsea Davy, white with a lot of money, they live in a complete bubble. They might be born on the African continent but their lives are nothing like the Africans who don't have the resources they have.

The nationality law of SA states that a person holding dual citizenship has to use their South African passport to enter and leave the country. South Africans need visas to travel making the South African passport completely useless. Much easier for her to stick to her new nationality.

I find your post ignorant in regards to nationality, as Charlene is a native of South Africa, born & raised. Her great-grandfather emigrated there from Germany long before she was born.

Do some reseach and you shall see that this is true, and that she has every right to call herself a South African:

nationality - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

Translation result for http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlene_Wittstock


Now regards "ethnicity", that's another matter all together, as South Africa is made up of 11 different official languages, and is ethnically diverse, with the first Europeans arriving in 1487: South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As for the other stuff, lol, there are poor, rich, middle-class in 99% of the countries out there, that's a fact of life, South Africa is not unique in this regard.

 

[Renata4711]

Ashelen - Charlene's family and forebears are from the north of what is now Germany. I don't think they have a connection with the Netherlands.

 

[SandwichSheik]

Thanks for the interesting information, SandwichSheik.

So, do you think there should not be a thread named "Charlene and her African heritage" ?

I don't have any issue with the thread title at all but I do think people need to realize that just because she was born on the African continent, it doesn't give her the same outlook and experiences as most Africans.

Her heritage is South African, being white her heritage is much different even than her fellow black South Africans. Her upbringing and life experiences are much different than a black South African woman of a similar age.

I find your post ignorant in regards to nationality, as Charlene is a native of South Africa, born & raised. Her great-grandfather emigrated there from Germany long before she was born.

Do some reseach and you shall see that this is true, and that she has every right to call herself a South African:

nationality - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education

Translation result for http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlene_Wittstock


Now regards "ethnicity", that's another matter all together, as South Africa is made up of 11 different official languages, and is ethnically diverse, with the first Europeans arriving in 1487: South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As for the other stuff, lol, there are poor, rich, middle-class in 99% of the countries out there, that's a fact of life, South Africa is not unique in this regard.

I am the same age as Charlene was born in South Africa and left South Africa a couple of years before she did. I think I'm well qualified to comment on her heritage and African connection.

You are right on the mark. She is African, as her birth shows. Those who want to, narrowly, define people, because of race have no concept of place of birth. I am an American and am white, but Americans come in all colors, we are all the same.

Go up to a Mexican immigrant or a black or native American and tell them that you are just like them and see how well it goes over.

I'm an American citizen now and my life is not at all comparable to yours. A piece of paper does not a person make.

Just to clear up, I'm not trying to say that Charlene isn't South African or has an African Heritage. I'm merely trying to give insight on how different South Africans have different influences and life experiences. I wouldn't dare compare my life to a black South African my age because white South Africans like Charlene and I grew up in very different circumstances.

As far as being German or Dutch, my parents are from Dutch and German descent. I don't know any white SA's who think of themselves as European though. You're either English(how my mother was raised) or Afrikaans(my father).

I wonder what language Charlene was raised in? Her accent to me is very heavy South African which is funny seeing as how long she's been outside of South Africa. Most SA's I've come across in Europe and the US who've been out of the country as long as she's been, their accents have definately changed. The fact that Charlene's accent is still so heavy and that she's not fluent or even comfortable in speaking French means she's either got a terrible ear for languages or she's not very bright. Pity all around.

 

[FanofMonaco]

SandwichSheik. I think you are confusing citizenship with race and class level. If she is a citizen of South Africa, she is S. African. Every country has different races and material class levels. Oprah Winfrey is a minority, no more or less a citizen than anyone else and definitely considered upper class now; despite her humble beginnings.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

In the US...anyone with a lot of money is considered "upper class"...which is ridiculous imo, but hey...I don't decide these things!

 

[SandwichSheik]

SandwichSheik. I think you are confusing citizenship with race and class level. If she is a citizen of South Africa, she is S. African. Every country has different races and material class levels. Oprah Winfrey is a minority, no more or less a citizen than anyone else and definitely considered upper class now; despite her humble beginnings.

Not at all. I'm not denying that she's South African of course she is. I'm merely trying to point out that people are painting in awefully broad strokes by refering to her African heritage. Being born on the continent doesn't give you some unique insight into somebody from Nigeria if you're South African especially if you're a white South African. The only thing you have in common is being born on the same continent. There's no shared sensibility.

Charlene is South African for sure but she also grew up during the apartheid years in an all white neighborhood attending an all white school when blacks were second class citizens. That right there gives her a different perspective on life than the majority of South Africans.

In the US...anyone with a lot of money is considered "upper class"...which is ridiculous imo, but hey...I don't decide these things!

lol true especially when you consider how some make their millions by releasing their sextapes and reality tv ala the Kardashians. No class there.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Not at all. I'm not denying that she's South African of course she is. I'm merely trying to point out that people are painting in awefully broad strokes by refering to her African heritage. Being born on the continent doesn't give you some unique insight into somebody from Nigeria if you're South African especially if you're a white South African. The only thing you have in common is being born on the same continent. There's no shared sensibility.

Charlene is South African for sure but she also grew up during the apartheid years in an all white neighborhood attending an all white school when blacks were second class citizens. That right there gives her a different perspective on life than the majority of South Africans.

This post makes EXCELLENT sense, and I agree completely.

Anyone who believes the experiences of a White South African-particularly one who lived under apartheid- are in any way similar to someone who is from Nigeria or Ivory Coast has either never visited the place(African Continent) or doesn't read much, IMO...it is simply beyond absurd.

Point well taken about those awful Kardashians. YIKES.

 

[FanofMonaco]

SS. Your 2nd paragraph describes the USA in the South from pre-revolution thru the 1960s. I'm white and my family has lived here since the 1700s. Are you saying I can't claim to have an American heritage. We all have different experiences, but it's still our American heritage; good or bad.

 

[COUNTESS]

It is all nonsense. If you didn't suffer, you can't be that. She is South African. Her opinions and outlook on her life may be very different that a black South African, but they are both South African. Yes, Americans of different bckground have different perceptions of ife. Try asking German Jews if they were German's when the Nazi's took over and denied their citzenship, murdered them and said they weren't Germans.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

COUNTESS...that is true to a point. Asian Americans, Black Americans, Mexican Americans and White Americans are all Americans with a common history to share as Americans.

But what we have individually absorbed and been subject to as part of the American Experience is not often the same at all.

I don't know why this is difficult for some to accept, but it doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Tosca]

Not at all. I'm not denying that she's South African of course she is. I'm merely trying to point out that people are painting in awefully broad strokes by refering to her African heritage. Being born on the continent doesn't give you some unique insight into somebody from Nigeria if you're South African especially if you're a white South African. The only thing you have in common is being born on the same continent. There's no shared sensibility.

Charlene is South African for sure but she also grew up during the apartheid years in an all white neighborhood attending an all white school when blacks were second class citizens. That right there gives her a different perspective on life than the majority of South Africans.



lol true especially when you consider how some make their millions by releasing their sextapes and reality tv ala the Kardashians. No class there.

I couldn't agree more with you SandwichSheik! I've never been to South Africa, but my husband did several times for work, besides two cousins of his emigrated to South Africa and came back home three decades ago.
One of them married a black lady from Soweto, but they had to get married here in Italy because of apartheid.

Charlene grew up like any other girl in the western emisphere. She's very little to share with the people from Soweto or other places like that.
If you watched the 2010 World Cup taking place in South Africa, you'd have probably noticed that whilst the stadium terraces were packed up with black people, the white went to watch the Rugby World Championship. So I guess
Charlene has lived in a bubble, like you said.

BTW my cousin not only learned Italian in a few months, but also the local dialect, whilst as far as I can see Charlene still can't speak French fluently despite her 4 year long stay in Monaco.

 

[Renata4711]

Well, very soon, Charlene won't have any excuse left not to improve her French, let alone the local dialect(s).

 

[Bahamagirl]

Sandwich I agree with you 100 %. (...) Continue to speak the truth.

 

[Renata4711]

But, surely, now that we have a South African almost-Royal, we are bound to be talking about apartheid and similar topics ?

When I started this thread, it was because of the opportunity to find out more about South Africa as a country, and the South Africans who live there, especially one particular South African

 

[Victoria's Secret]

Charlene was born in the former Rhodesia, grew up and spent most of her life in South Africa. Therefore she holds full claim to an African heritage -- irrespective of her experience as a white person. Just because she might not have the "insight" and a "different perspective" (to underprivileged black people), as pointed out by SandwichSheik, doesn't make her any less African. As a matter of fact, her African heritage is something she is clearly very proud of.

 

[smdouglas]

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion as to whether Charlene is a "true" African or not is superfluous.

I'm a white guy that has lived in middle class America all my life. The discussion is trying to make the point that just because a black woman who has lived on welfare most of her life and I don't have the same experiences one of us is not American. That's silly!

 

[Victoria's Secret]

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion as to whether Charlene is a "true" African or not is superfluous.

I'm a white guy that has lived in middle class America all my life. The discussion is trying to make the point that just because a black woman who has lived on welfare most of her life and I don't have the same experiences one of us is not American. That's silly!

Totally agree. That's the point I tried to make too.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion as to whether Charlene is a "true" African or not is superfluous.

I'm a white guy that has lived in middle class America all my life. The discussion is trying to make the point that just because a black woman who has lived on welfare most of her life and I don't have the same experiences one of us is not American. That's silly!

I don't think that was what Sheik was saying at all.

Even a White woman who has lived most of HER life on welfare in Appalachia or Missisippi will have a different American experience than a Black woman who has lived most of her life in New York on welfare...but it doesn't make either woman less American.

The only thing that they really have in common though besides that is their sex..AND their low socio-economic status.

BTW...I am certain that you meant no bias by the example you used, but Black women are not the only people in this country who benefit or have benefited from welfare.

I am not even sure that the majority of the people in this country on public assistance are Black.

 

[Renata4711]

Of course, Charlene will have had plenty of encounters with black people in France and Monaco and Italy.

 

[COUNTESS]

You are right, but people are people and many of the same "background" , will percieve things, idfferently, too.

 

[smdouglas]

I don't think that was what Sheik was saying at all.

Even a White woman who has lived most of HER life on welfare in Appalachia or Missisippi will have a different American experience than a Black woman who has lived most of her life in New York on welfare...but it doesn't make either woman less American.

The only thing that they really have in common though besides that is their sex..AND their low socio-economic status.

BTW...I am certain that you meant no bias by the example you used, but Black women are not the only people in this country who benefit or have benefited from welfare.

I am not even sure that the majority of the people in this country on public assistance are Black.

You take me too literally. Every single one of us has different experiences. Part of life is exploring those. The point of my comments is that in any group (South African, left handed mechanics, or purple cross-eyed taxi drivers) is made up of people with different experiences. I think part of what we are discussing are those differences.

I'm intrigued by the info provided by several of us in this thread. Although the palace has provided some biographical info on the Princely Wedding Site (Biographical details for Ms. Charlene Lynette Wittstock), the details provided by others is even more interesting to me.

 

[Renata4711]

When I started this thread, I did initially look for information about what it must have been like to have to move from Zimbabwe to Benoni. Now, the journey has broadened out, and new challenges are in the offing.

CW will experience many more people and places than she may have expected.

 

[madrid]

You take me too literally. Every single one of us has different experiences. Part of life is exploring those. The point of my comments is that in any group (South African, left handed mechanics, or purple cross-eyed taxi drivers) is made up of people with different experiences. I think part of what we are discussing are those differences.

I'm intrigued by the info provided by several of us in this thread. Although the palace has provided some biographical info on the Princely Wedding Site (Biographical details for Ms. Charlene Lynette Wittstock), the details provided by others is even more interesting to me.

I didn't find anywhere informations about her education. Which university did Charlene attend in South Africa? What is her degree?

 

[Zonk]

Please note that posts regarding Charlene's education have been moved to http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ks-education-and-swimming-career-28328-3.html .

All off topic posts regarding racism have been deleted.

Zonk
Monaco Forums Moderator

 

[Renata4711]

Madrid, I think we have established that she did not attend university.

We might have to give her the benefit of the doubt, and to hope that she will improve herself, with the endless interesting opportunities she will have.

It's worth pointing out that a university degree is not mandatory. There are other chances to broaden one's knowledge of people, literature etc.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

I'll second that, Renata. But, there are some areas that do require it. I don't think a prerequisite for a Princess is a university degree.

 

[Renata4711]

Well, it would help .... but it's not essential, IMO.

Charlene could acquire knowledge about the various disabilities of Special Olympics competitors.

She could take tailor-made courses in Sport Science. There are universities with such programmes, short/medium/long.....

She could learn to counsel athletes.....

 

[Kasumi]

Future Princess of Monaco is a descendant of pirates

Article in French
English translation

 

[KittyAtlanta]

WOW!!! Even more to like about Charlene!

 

[Renata4711]

Jason Hartman is a singer from South Africa, and he will be singing before the Eagles Concert.