Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania


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Duc_et_Pair said:
From the outlook it looks like Nicholas Medforth-Mills was "sent away" for having shady contacts or something but these were nothing, compared with the unclear and shady actions by uncle Radu.
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This statement seems a bit strange. Your reaction to the expulsion of Nicholas claimed that such a thing (i.e. being stripped of his rights) was surely welcome to the prince as now he could be free to do whatever he wanted (even though he had never given any indication during his years in Romania that he desired to do anything but serve the people of that country). You held that the decision was surely taken by Nicholas himself. Further, you stated that Princess Margarita and Prince Radu had done a fine job of helping Nicholas fit into his role (which they clearly did not--assuming the allegations are true). Are you now changing your tune and blaming the ill-advised action towards Nicholas on the éminence grise that is his uncle?
 
Benjamin said:
This statement seems a bit strange. Your reaction to the expulsion of Nicholas claimed that such a thing (i.e. being stripped of his rights) was surely welcome to the prince as now he could be free to do whatever he wanted (even though he had never given any indication during his years in Romania that he desired to do anything but serve the people of that country). You held that the decision was surely taken by Nicholas himself. Further, you stated that Princess Margarita and Prince Radu had done a fine job of helping Nicholas fit into his role (which they clearly did not--assuming the allegations are true). Are you now changing your tune and blaming the ill-advised action towards Nicholas on the éminence grise that is his uncle?
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This post clearly shows the inconsistencies in previous posts, and how difficult it is to discuss the cause, separated from personal views about people. A further lack of consistency is the seeming interest in reducing the value of certain members of the Royal Family, while simultaneously claiming they have no standing in the family, or the country, no chance of returning to the throne or to any position of influence.

If they don't play a role, and won't in a future you lay out, why the need to talk about them at all? I suppose it could be taken as evidence that those who oppose the Royal Family, are worried that they have more support than is wanted, and that there is an urgent need to talk them down.
 
I have no any doubt that Nicholas is relieved now he is lost from that burden of being a "Heir" to a defunct throne. This Swiss-born British gentleman maybe feel happy to be free from Ruritania eh... Romania I mean.

With my previous post I did not had Nicholas' viewpoint in my mind but that of "the Royal House" which apparently -if we have to believe the rumours- shove Nicholas away because of his "shady contacts" (amongst others with the former President whom insulted and ridiculed King Michael). If thát (the "shady contacts") was the reason, then it is weird that what was apparently blamed on Nicholas, was not blamed on his uncle Radu, with so many more shady contacts and aspects in his past.

That was more what I wanted to say.
 
For the royalists now there is a big challenge: how to remain united and promote the Monarchy even if they have different views about Succession.

The interview with Princess Margareta and her husband at TVR was not broadcasted Tuesday evening. The reason for being postponed is probably the huge rally in Bucharest.
 
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In the last two days there were huge rallies in the main cities that brought to the dismissal of the government. It is obvious that the people want more than just a political change because nobody wants a corrupted system anymore. There were royalists with the Royal flags among those who attend the rallies but it is really hard to know if there is in this confusing moment an increasing popularity of the Monarchy. Two things are clear: the politicians and the Orthodox patriarch are contested by a part of the population.
 
It is good to see the Romanian Royal Family being visible at important events and centrally placed in discussions in Romania. The Crown Princess travels throughout the country, meets people, lights candles and stands among grieving men and women, is firmly placed in the centre of reburials, investitures, is interviewed in tv and in the papers, holds investitures and raises the profile of Romania wherever she can.

To think that in the event of a restoration, the Romanian people would want their own Royal Family displaced because they're women, and because a long-since gone constitution said that a German Prince of Hohenzollern should be imported if there were no male heirs, is a view so out of date and step with the modern Romania we speak of, it beggars belief.
 
LadyRohan said:
[...]

To think that in the event of a restoration, the Romanian people would want their own Royal Family displaced because they're women, and because a long-since gone constitution said that a German Prince of Hohenzollern should be imported if there were no male heirs, is a view so out of date and step with the modern Romania we speak of, it beggars belief.
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- a restoration will never happen, period

- there is no question of "importing" Princes of Hohenzollern: Michael is a Prince of Hohenzollern himself, his daughters Margareta, Elena, Irina, Sophia and Maria are Princesses of Hohenzollern

- when you speak about importing "Germans", why don't you speak about importing a Swiss-born British (Nicholas Medforth-Mills), a British-born British (Karina Medforth-Mills) or a French-born Française (Elisabeth Biarneix)?

- what you call "views so out of date": this can include the whole concept of a monarchy an sich, of course

- note, that the youngest child of King Michael -was he a boy- still would have bypassed all his five elder sisters under the current "modern" rules anno 2007, so advocated by you...

- needless to say that when Michael had a son, we would never have seen this vaudeville, as he would have been sure about his succession...

:whistling:
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
- a restoration will never happen, period

- there is no question of "importing" Princes of Hohenzollern: Michael is a Prince of Hohenzollern himself, his daughters Margareta, Elena, Irina, Sophia and Maria are Princesses of Hohenzollern

- when you speak about importing "Germans", why don't you speak about importing a Swiss-born British (Nicholas Medforth-Mills), a British-born British (Karina Medforth-Mills) or a French-born Française (Elisabeth Biarneix)?

- what you call "views so out of date": this can include the whole concept of a monarchy an sich, of course

- note, that the youngest child of King Michael -was he a boy- still would have bypassed all his five elder sisters under the current "modern" rules anno 2007, so advocated by you...

- needless to say that when Michael had a son, we would never have seen this vaudeville, as he would have been sure about his succession...

:whistling:
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Several monarchies choose to still use male-preferred primogeniture. It's not my favourite model, but that's life. Your idea that a monarchy will never be restored, and that monarchies are out of date per se, makes it difficult to debate a locked position.

Mine are not locked. I'm not a member of Parliament in Romania, nor do I live within the Royal Family. I do not presume to know what will happen tomorrow, and Romania is a society in rapid progress. I believe in the cause of the monarchy, the virtue of an unelected and representative head of state that cannot be corrupted, and controlled, as easily as a president is. I've laid out how I believe a restoration will take place. That you don't believe in a restoration at all, makes it rather hard to logically have a debate about merits. Anything I say, and put down a case for, will be dismissed out of hand anyway, so what's the point?

The Romanian Royal Family has raised their profile considerably in Romania since their return, and in the past few years, people are starting to see monarchy as a real option to the failed republic they've had since the fall of communism.

I cannot see a scenario underwhich they will be displaced in a regal future of Romania. That they were born in exile, their grandchildren born in exile, does not negate them being the Romanian Royal Family.

I am sure, however, that some will argue for a different solution.
It would just be so refreshing to see an argument in favour of it, and it would be nice if the person(s) making them actually believed in the monarchy and its place as a governing system at all.
 
But the point is that a monarchy is about tradition, about the principle of hereditary succession, about maintaining the Constitution and about defending the rights of the citizens. But it is you, a royalist supporter, which used the word "outdated" for the succession according Salic Law, however a very monarchist principle anyway. It is you who apparently see no problem in a private person fabricating a private document and with this "overruling" the royal Constitution.

I am not against Princess Margareta being Michael's Heir, as that is what the democratic Parliament of the new Kingdom of Romania wants and has approved. I am against Princess Margareta being made Michael's Heir purely because he prefer to change the rules in favour of his own daughter than to respect these (and then the headship goes to the Fürst von Hohenzollern), while anyone can see that beyond Margareta it will be a cul-de-sac and the end of the Royal House.

What King Michael did is exactly what Don Ferdinand VII de Borbón y Borbón-Parma did with his Pragmática Sanción of 1830. Confronted with only two daughters and with the Salic Law which is observed in all Bourbon Houses, the King decided to overrule it in favour of his minor daughter (who would soon become Queen). This did split Spain to the bone, as his brother Infante Don Carlos has always been the Heir until the King's palace-coup. It has led to three bloody Carlist Wars.

What King Michael did is essentially the same. Luckily he is an old man somewhere in Switzerland, playing in this tragicomic operetta. God beware he has fabricated this vaudeville during an actual reign.
 
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In an actual reign, the constitution would be updated by politicians, and with the input of the monarch if sought. Whether or not the salic law provisions are antiquated, it is my view that they are, and most Western monarchies operate under equal or male-preferred primogeniture these days.

To equate things happening today with things happening centuries ago, just strikes me as arbitrary, to make a point, false or factual as it might be. A monarchy in itself is absolutely an ancient institution, but no institution survives without adapting to the times it exist in. The King has acted to ensure the Royal Family continues after him, and yes, if he had sons, this debate would not need to be taken until an actual restoration takes place. Right now, he has ensured his family succeeds him in being custodians of the Crown, and what happens later, is up to the people and politicians.
 
Now it is important to see what real changes the people are asking in the streets.

In Cluj Thursday evening many people on the streets were asking for the return of Monarchy.
 
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Duc_et_Pair said:
But the point is that a monarchy is about tradition, about the principle of hereditary succession, about maintaining the Constitution and about defending the rights of the citizens. But it is you, a royalist supporter, which used the word "outdated" for the succession according Salic Law, however a very monarchist principle anyway. It is you who apparently see no problem in a private person fabricating a private document and with this "overruling" the royal Constitution.

I am not against Princess Margareta being Michael's Heir, as that is what the democratic Parliament of the new Kingdom of Romania wants and has approved. I am against Princess Margareta being made Michael's Heir purely because he prefer to change the rules in favour of his own daughter than to respect these (and then the headship goes to the Fürst von Hohenzollern), while anyone can see that beyond Margareta it will be a cul-de-sac and the end of the Royal House.

What King Michael did is exactly what Don Ferdinand VII de Borbón y Borbón-Parma did with his Pragmática Sanción of 1830. Confronted with only two daughters and with the Salic Law which is observed in all Bourbon Houses, the King decided to overrule it in favour of his minor daughter (who would soon become Queen). This did split Spain to the bone, as his brother Infante Don Carlos has always been the Heir until the King's palace-coup. It has led to three bloody Carlist Wars.

What King Michael did is essentially the same. Luckily he is an old man somewhere in Switzerland, playing in this tragicomic operetta. God beware he has fabricated this vaudeville during an actual reign.
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With all due respect for your position, I'm not sure your parallels can hold, here. King Michael has not tried to change any state's constitution, he has merely proposed a set of rules regarding the succession for consideration IF a new constitution establishing a Constitutional Monarchy in Romania is adopted. This is quite clear in his fundamental house rules. Neither has he ever implied that he would not accept a decision by the Romanians to go down a different route.

Salic law is one of several systems regarding succession, not an absolute monarchist principle: The Queens/Empresses regnant in England, Scotland, (the UK), Russia and Austria-Hungary are testament to the existence of other systems. The conflicts arising from the pragmatic sanction in Spain (or indeed Portugal) around 200 years ago, when a Monarch's role was considerably different to what it has become, can be contrasted with the painless changes effected in the Netherlands and Luxembourg over a century ago. Romania in the 21st Century is not Spain at the beginning of the 19th century and you can't seriously be implying that there is a risk of a bloody civil war between supporters of the German Hohenzollerns and those of the King's daughter.

The bottom line is that in the highly unlikely event of a restoration, the Romanian people will decide who to invite to assume the throne and what principles underpin the succession to the throne.
 
In these moments in is important to see how in which direction the society is going. There are rallies every day and it is the beginning of a sort of revolution.

President Iohannis wants to speak in these moments with those representing the civil society. The royalists of ANRM asked to be received too at these meetings.
 
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Andy T said:
With all due respect for your position, I'm not sure your parallels can hold, here. King Michael has not tried to change any state's constitution, he has merely proposed a set of rules regarding the succession for consideration IF a new constitution establishing a Constitutional Monarchy in Romania is adopted. This is quite clear in his fundamental house rules. Neither has he ever implied that he would not accept a decision by the Romanians to go down a different route.

Salic law is one of several systems regarding succession, not an absolute monarchist principle: The Queens/Empresses regnant in England, Scotland, (the UK), Russia and Austria-Hungary are testament to the existence of other systems. The conflicts arising from the pragmatic sanction in Spain (or indeed Portugal) around 200 years ago, when a Monarch's role was considerably different to what it has become, can be contrasted with the painless changes effected in the Netherlands and Luxembourg over a century ago. Romania in the 21st Century is not Spain at the beginning of the 19th century and you can't seriously be implying that there is a risk of a bloody civil war between supporters of the German Hohenzollerns and those of the King's daughter.

The bottom line is that in the highly unlikely event of a restoration, the Romanian people will decide who to invite to assume the throne and what principles underpin the succession to the throne.
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Thanks for this, it is how I have always imagined the situation. Any restoration of the monarchy would likely be based upon a brand new constitution that takes into account modern day requirements rather than an abolished one that hasn't seen the light of day in decades.
 
The royalists were not invited at Cotroceni Palace at the dialogue of president Iohannis with those representing the civil society.
 
Invited and interviewed by Romanian national television, the Crown Princess has declared to be ready to serve her country [as Queen] if the Romanians wanted so. Prince Radu also said that the country was now ready to accept the return of the Monarchy but said that should be a common project for all including the political parties, not something coming only from the Romanian Crown.

https://monarhiasalveazaromania.wor...solut-pregatita-pentru-restaurarea-monarhiei/

Well, no one can say they're not interested in a restoration, by I'm sure the Poster from Rome will say the daughter of the King and the husband of Princess Margareta want to keep the status quo, because they managed to strip the son of Princess Elena from the succession and Princesses Elena and Sofia never go to Romania.
 
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Cris M said:
Invited and interviewed by Romanian national television, the Crown Princess has declared to be ready to serve her country [as Queen] if the Romanians wanted so. Prince Radu also said that the country was now ready to accept the return of the Monarchy but said that should be a common project for all including the political parties, not something coming only from the Romanian Crown.

https://monarhiasalveazaromania.wor...solut-pregatita-pentru-restaurarea-monarhiei/

Well, no one can say they're not interested in a restoration, by I'm sure the Poster from Rome will say the daughter of the King and the husband of Princess Margareta want to keep the status quo, because the managed to strip the son of Princess Elena from the succession and Princesses Elena and Sofia never go to Romania.
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An eloquent and very clear statement about the future of the monarchy in Romania, and how the process should involve proper information and options put to the people, and how the Royal Family is ready to serve, if the people wish it.

It could not be put clearer, from the Crown Princess, and as she respects the will of the people as the ultimate decider, we should respect her clear statements and her desire to let this process come from the people, and not from the Royal Family.
 
It seems the official website of the Royal Family announced that King Michael will speak tomorrow to Romania
 
Exactly that. A very clear statement from the Crown Princess on the future of the monarchy. That must do. And of course very clever the statement that the people will decide on anything. Let's see tomorrow what the King said.
 
I'm curious to hear what the King will say. :flowers:

The restoration of the monarchy in Romania is likely?
 
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Many royalists including the well known journalist Marilena Rotaru, the Coposu sisters and many other personalities left the ANRM considering the royalist association was not going in the right direction :

Marilena Rotaru, Lucia Hossu Longin, surorile Coposu, Doina Cornea se retrag din ANRM | DC News | De ce se intampla

SCANDAL CU OAMENII SERVICIILOR SECRETE LA MONARHIȘTI: Surorile Coposu și Marilena Rotaru și-au anunțat RETRAGEREA/ UPDATE: Și fostul consilier al Principesei Margareta, Mihai Ricci, și-a anunțat retragerea

The divisions among the Romanian royalists seem to be very strong at the beginning of 2016. There are at least three groups: those that support unconditionally Elisabeta Palace (those that remained in ANRM), those that support the King but not support unconditinially Elisabeta Palace and those that support the Succession of the Hohenzollerns.
 
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With misguided steps taken during the past year the King that was something I really expected.

LadyRohan said:
At the risk of opening a can of worms again, could you provide a link to any group, or any formalized material, that actively support the restoration of the Romanian monarchy under a Hohenzollern? I don't doubt there are individuals who think that route is the best, but is there a group or organization that does? It would be interesting to read.

In all fairness, there are different factions in most former monarchies, and in some contemporary ones, like Spain, with the Carlists. In the end, the interesting thing from a restoration perspective, is what is realistic and not, and the Kings action last August, needs to find a resolution, so Nicholas can return to Romania and strengthen the monarchical cause.

That's the only realistic route I see at this point in time.
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Agree . You must return the Nicolae and already through his messages in Facebook shows that he wishes that.
But the division as Cory say between the Royalists is nothing positive but expected.

What I believe is that without Nicolae or Hohenzollerns(?) not optimistic things for the monarchy in Romania. Of course you never know what happens with this family.
 
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Cory said:
The divisions among the Romanian royalists seem to be very strong at the beginning of 2016. There are at least three groups: those that support unconditionally Elisabeta Palace (those that remained in ANRM), those that support the King but not support unconditinially Elisabeta Palace and those that support the Succession of the Hohenzollerns.
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At the risk of opening a can of worms again, could you provide a link to any group, or any formalized material, that actively support the restoration of the Romanian monarchy under a Hohenzollern? I don't doubt there are individuals who think that route is the best, but is there a group or organization that does? It would be interesting to read.

In all fairness, there are different factions in most former monarchies, and in some contemporary ones, like Spain, with the Carlists. In the end, the interesting thing from a restoration perspective, is what is realistic and not, and the Kings action last August, needs to find a resolution, so Nicholas can return to Romania and strengthen the monarchical cause.

That's the only realistic route I see at this point in time.
 
There is no official site of the supporters of the Hohenzollerns.
 
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LadyRohan said:
At the risk of opening a can of worms again, could you provide a link to any group, or any formalized material, that actively support the restoration of the Romanian monarchy under a Hohenzollern? I don't doubt there are individuals who think that route is the best, but is there a group or organization that does? It would be interesting to read.

In all fairness, there are different factions in most former monarchies, and in some contemporary ones, like Spain, with the Carlists. In the end, the interesting thing from a restoration perspective, is what is realistic and not, and the Kings action last August, needs to find a resolution, so Nicholas can return to Romania and strengthen the monarchical cause.

That's the only realistic route I see at this point in time.
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There is no realistic route. Only a theoretic one. Du moment the former King, who was already no head of state of Romania anymore when Queen Elizabeth II started her long, long Reign (thát long is it ago...) the monarchist case will implode. Then the daughter of a man who was a King almost 70 years ago, without direct Heirs, should start a new monarchy or so? Well... it is never forbidden to dream....

:flowers:
 
It is a rather difficult moment for the supporters of Monarchy in Romania. Unless the Hohenzollerns will be interested in the Succession there is no real possibilities for a restoration.
 
eya said:
What I believe is that without Nicolae or Hohenzollerns(?) not optimistic things for the monarchy in Romania. Of course you never know what happens with this family.
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You are very right.
 
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eya said:
Agree . You must return the Nicolae and already through his messages in Facebook shows that he wishes that.
But the division as Cory say between the Royalists is nothing positive but expected.
Click to expand...
What Facebook message?
 
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:previous: You must go to the thread for Nicolae.

The chance to restore the monarchy if nothing changes soon is something very distant. This could have understood and royalists in the country for this this perhaps divided between them. Cory there something new from the Royalists who left ANRM?

Thanks. It will be interesting to see when create this new group their views and mostly who to support.

Of course they support the King there is no doubt about it. I meant more their views on the continuation of the dynasty but is perhaps still early for that.
 
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