Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[Ish]

I'm pretty sure the French are doing it too.

[RoyalHighness 2002]

First of all, Rostislav is not even the head of the Romanov Family Association, so I don't see how he is the head of the house. And I'm pretty sure the only people that support the RFA's line is the RFA and a small band of supporters. Maria has the support of the Russian Orthodox Church, most likely the Russian government and other royal families.


Other royal families fighting over succession include the Georgians, French, as aforementioned, Italians, Spanish(Carlists, more one-sided), Bourbon-Sicilians, and Brazilians.

[AristoCat]

I've always wondered why so many people want the headship of the House of Romanov; I'm surprised really at how much infighting these dethroned families are engaged in. It's unreal.

[Furienna]

Well, there would be a lot of prestige to gain from becoming an emperor or empress. Even within a constitutional monarchy. So I don't blame them.

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I'd take anyone but Maria. As long as she's still around I say no to restoration.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi

I'd take anyone but Maria. As long as she's still around I say no to restoration.

This might be a stupid question, but what is so bad about Maria?

[Frozen Royalist]

Honestly I'd say forget about Grand Duchess Maria right now because she isn't really the biggest obstacle when it comes to the possibility of restoration, right now the two biggest obstacles are Vladimir Putin and the Russians that still adhere to the old Soviet/Republican ideology who are decreasing in numbers now but still.

-Frozen Royalist

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Furienna

This might be a stupid question, but what is so bad about Maria?

Oh,oh no,not a stupid question at all...Oh well,neither one of us here at the forum has time of life enough to explain that...

And,NO restoration with the lady from Madrid NOR her son.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by lucien

Oh,oh no,not a stupid question at all...Oh well,neither one of us here at the forum has time of life enough to explain that...

And,NO restoration with the lady from Madrid NOR her son.

Is there any alternative for Maria Vladimirovna?

[Frozen Royalist]

What about Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen or Prince Andrew Andreyevich Romanov? I understand they're aren't exactly popular but they are part of the line of succession to the former Russian Throne.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. I'm not saying I'm a supporter of those two, I'm a supporter of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna despite what impression my previous comment may have given, but I am addressing those two because of what Duc_et_Pair said.

[Al_bina]

I doubt that Russians would like to have a foreigner as a Tsar. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and her son are disliked by large public.

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

Honestly I'd say forget about Grand Duchess Maria right now because she isn't really the biggest obstacle when it comes to the possibility of restoration, right now the two biggest obstacles are Vladimir Putin and the Russians that still adhere to the old Soviet/Republican ideology who are decreasing in numbers now but still ... [snipped]

Unlike the Romanovs, the Soviet Republicans in question did do amazing things for people. They did build the Empire the Romanovs wanted to have.

[Frozen Royalist]

Okay so maybe a new dynasty deemed appropriate by the Russian Orthodox Church then, considering how hard it'd be its looking increasingly like the monarchist's only option if they ever want to see a Tsar in Russia again.

-Frozen Royalist

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

[...]

Unlike the Romanovs, the Soviet Republicans in question did do amazing things for people. They did build the Empire the Romanovs wanted to have.

Funny. I have a total opposite view. The Soviets actually destroyed the gigantic Empire the Romanovs build... Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, name them all, were part of the Tsarist Empire.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

What about Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen or Prince Andrew Andreyevich Romanov? I understand they're aren't exactly popular but they are part of the line of succession to the former Russian Throne.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. I'm not saying I'm a supporter of those two, I'm a supporter of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna despite what impression my previous comment may have given, but I am addressing those two because of what Duc_et_Pair said.

I can not see how Prince Karl Emich zu Leiningen can have a better claim as Maria Vladimirovna (he and she share the same grandfather) is the most senior agnate, and let that precizely be the way the succession works (with due respect for additional rules). The claim of Prince Karl Emich is soleley based on the fact that he does not accept Maria Vladimirovna Romanova or the late Nicholas Romanovich Romanov as dynasts.

These claims are based on the fact that Maria Vladimirovna's father married a partner whom did not meet the requirements (Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Mukhraneli)

The same about the father of Nicholas Romanovich who married a partner whom did not mee the requirements either (Countess Praskovia Dmitrievna Sheremeteva).

It is only funny that Prince Karl Emich, the junior agnate, himself has hardly any foot to stand on since his marriage to Frau Gabriele Homey (best known from her second marriage to the Aga Khan). After all Maria Vladmirovna herself married a Prince of Prussia and Nicholas himself married an Italian Countess.

[Gladaman]

I think the people of Russia have always been governed by totalitarian regimes, Imperial, Soviet OR Putin. I suspect their access to information is so tailored to the interests of the current regime to be responsible for almost ANY national consensus, validly held or feigned. What I'm saying is, that if Putin was in favour of a transfer of power to a Romanov restoration, then so would his people, at least publicly. I think he might very well follow a similar example as did Franco in 1970s Spain. Why not. There's no indication that he is likely to live more than a decade or two at the most. I don't think he maintains any loyalty to any ideology, beyond self interest than perhaps Pride in Russia's Imperial past.

I go even further.. who's to say Putin wouldn't like to marry his daughter or granddaughter to Grand Duke George? Seriously, I think Putin's sense of personal worth might actually seem to justify such a legacy for himself. The rules of succession or dynastic inclusion rules are entirely within the discretion of any official actions that involve restoration, Romanov, Leiningen, Rurik OR, for that matter, Kent.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I can not see how Prince Karl Emich zu Leiningen can have a better claim as Maria Vladimirovna (he and she share the same grandfather) is the most senior agnate, and let that precizely be the way the succession works (with due respect for additional rules). The claim of Prince Karl Emich is soleley based on the fact that he does not accept Maria Vladimirovna Romanova or the late Nicholas Romanovich Romanov as dynasts.

These claims are based on the fact that Maria Vladimirovna's father married a partner whom did not meet the requirements (Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Mukhraneli)

The same about the father of Nicholas Romanovich who married a partner whom did not mee the requirements either (Countess Praskovia Dmitrievna Sheremeteva).

It is only funny that Prince Karl Emich, the junior agnate, himself has hardly any foot to stand on since his marriage to Frau Gabriele Homey (best known from her second marriage to the Aga Khan). After all Maria Vladmirovna herself married a Prince of Prussia and Nicholas himself married an Italian Countess.

I agree that Maria & her son George are definitely dynasts in the most senior line BUT don't understand how she was calculated as top ranked, all males being disqualified, while senior representatives of the Leiningen, Serbian & Greek dynasties seem, to me, to have qualified, as do some of their descendents.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Gladaman

I agree that Maria & her son George are definitely dynasts in the most senior line BUT don't understand how she was calculated as top ranked, all males being disqualified, while senior representatives of the Leiningen, Serbian & Greek dynasties seem, to me, to have qualified, as do some of their descendents.

The Leiningen, Serbian and Greek descendants are lower in the pecking order of the male-preferred agnatic succession.

[LadyRohan]

https://www.aftenposten.no/verden/i/...t-endte-darlig


A Norwegian newspaper reported the stunt that H.I.H Grand Duchess Maria and her son staged when they traveled to Crimea in a Lada Largus while being filmed live on Russian TV as something that was ridiculed by most Russians, including those supporting the monarchy and the idea of a royal restoration in parliament.
A survey that was published last year show the most recent numbers and views on the monarchy, and the results can be seen as both good and bad, with the perspective being chances of restoration. Russians have answered these questions on 3 separate occasions, in 2006, 2013 and 2017. Here are some of the key stats, translated:


'I'm for a Russian monarchy, but cannot name a potential czar'
19% (2006) 24% (2013) 22 (2017)
'I'm for a Russian monarchy, and can name a potential czar'
3% (2006) 4% (2013) 6% (2017)
'I'm against Russia restoring the monarchy'
66% (2006) 67% (2013) 68% (2017)


In 2017, 28% are open to the idea of restoring the monarchy, while only 6% can name a candidate to the throne. In my view, that opens a large room for a well-organized and visible PR-campaign to raise awareness of the potential of the Russian Royal Family. Having support from 1/3rd of such a vast nation without almost all of them being able to name or point out a potential sovereign, is a very good starting point for a monarchical campaign. That being said ..


Novaya Gazeta https://www.novayagazeta.ru/articles...mama-monarhiya, one of the largest and most politically critical newspapers in Russia, called the Grand Duchess and her son 'comical figures' that have claimed no aspirations to either restore the monarchy or even be moral leaders in Russian society, and in large parts of the country, the Romanov family is today seen as foreign, as most of its members were born, raised and live abroad.

The lack of unity within the Russian Royal Family is an obstacle to any restoration process, and the Grand Duchess could do with better advisors, but it seems that the ground is still there, within the large realm in the East, to re-plant the monarchy, if a slow and focused process of information, visibility and good work is undertaken by those who claim to represent the dynasty, both historically and into the future.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Heavs

The problem with she herself just declaring them invalid means that she goes back on what she had her father have been saying for decades. That they are the only true dynasts of the House because they married equally and thus the heirs. If she says they don't matter any more then there are several other branches of the family she has to say are ahead of her or that her claim is more disputed.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

The problem hasn't dissuaded many other heads of ex-royal families from doing exactly that. For instance, the Hohenberg branch from Archduke Franz Ferdinand could claim to be the true dynasts of the House of Austria if one consistently applies the changes the junior branch made to the house laws.

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

The difference with the Habsburg’s is that there are many branches with many sons to continue the successions. Plus the Hohenbergs can’t actually claim themselves as Head of the house of Habsburg because the marriage ofArchduke Franz Ferdinand was officially declared morganatic. The issue with the Romanovs right now is that there aren’t many males left or anyone who has seriously taken the Pauline laws.

Not sure what the number of branches with sons has to do with the dynastic-marriage debate, unless you are stating that the arguments over dynastic marriages are merely an excuse to undermine a female claimant.

The marriages of the various other Romanov sons were also "officially" declared morganatic or dynastically invalid by the senior-line pretenders under the Pauline laws.

[SirGyamfi1]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Not sure what the number of branches with sons has to do with the dynastic-marriage debate, unless you are stating that the arguments over dynastic marriages are merely an excuse to undermine a female claimant.

The marriages of the various other Romanov sons were also "officially" declared morganatic or dynastically invalid by the senior-line pretenders under the Pauline laws.

But Maria’s claims have fallen by the wayside the moment her son married Rebecca Bettarini and none of the morganatic descendants claim the non-existent throne or want it anyways. Maria’s claims are disputed because there are claims that her ancestress Grand Duchess Pavlovna the Elder didn’t convert to Orthodoxy, also her father’s marriage to a member of the non ruling branch of the Bagration family of Georgia who was divorced.
I‘m sorry but you don’t have a point on the Habsburgs because the Hohenbergs might be senior descendants but they were legally declared morganatic descendants during the time of the monarchy so they can’t claim to be Head of the family and the late Crown Prince Otto von Habsburg relaxed the house laws. Also I was simply stating the difference in the situation of the claims in the respective Houses

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

But Maria’s claims have fallen by the wayside the moment her son married Rebecca Bettarini

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

and the late Crown Prince Otto von Habsburg relaxed the house laws. Also I was simply stating the difference in the situation of the claims in the respective Houses

And the point I was stating is that following the same logic regarding a head of the house relaxing the marriage rules in virtue of which they claimed the headship, Otto's claims likewise fell by the wayside the moment his son married Francesca Thyssen.

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

I‘m sorry but you don’t have a point on the Habsburgs because the Hohenbergs might be senior descendants but they were legally declared morganatic descendants during the time of the monarchy so they can’t claim to be Head of the family

But what difference does it make - as far as the argument about claims to headships of dethroned houses or their nonexistent thrones is concerned - whether the morganatic marriage occurred during the time of the monarchy or afterwards?

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

and none of the morganatic descendants claim the non-existent throne or want it anyways.

Do they not? Elsewhere in your comment you referred to Maria's claims being disputed.

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

Maria’s claims are disputed because there are claims that her ancestress Grand Duchess Pavlovna the Elder didn’t convert to Orthodoxy, also her father’s marriage to a member of the non ruling branch of the Bagration family of Georgia who was divorced.

I realize there are other arguments at play in the Romanov disputes, but we were discussing the argument on marital standards.