Marie Pavlovna "The Elder" (Grand Duchess Vladimir) (1854-1920) - Page 4

**Marengo** · #61 05-18-2008, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexi4

It isn't in Romanov Autumn. I just checked. It talks about how hurt Marie was when Ella decided to convert.
Lexi

A bit late, but I finally found it in Romanov autumn. In the chapter ' A House Devided' it is said that Miechen converted in 1908, mainly out of ambition for her sons future. I do not know where Zeepvat gets the information from though, as she does not use footnotes.

Cumberland · #62 06-09-2008, 08:42 PM

That is intereting, one would have thought she would have converted long before. I believe there was some tension or dislike if you call it from the Dowager Empress, and there was a story about the Marinsky Theatre, which I believe was not the first time Marie Pavlovna found herself at adds with the ruler, his consort or his Mother.

JPhinala · #63 06-10-2008, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cumberland

That is intereting, one would have thought she would have converted long before. I believe there was some tension or dislike if you call it from the Dowager Empress, and there was a story about the Marinsky Theatre, which I believe was not the first time Marie Pavlovna found herself at adds with the ruler, his consort or his Mother.

Ah. The Mariinsky Theater story is one of my favorites. For those of you who don't know it, I'll paraphrase it here.

The Dowager Empress used to have two tables set up with refreshments and invited the most prestigious people in the theater to dine with her. Sometimes the Empress Marie would go to reserve the space and the Grand Duchess would have already reserved it. As retaliation the Empress booked it the same evening as the Grand Duchess and the Grand Duchess, utterly embaressed in front of her guests, was forced to give up her table. The Grand Duchess, to her credit, bowed out and never tried to rival the Empress at the Mariinsky again. :)

Grace Angel · #64 03-13-2009, 08:16 PM

I think it's interesting how so many of the Russian people at the court etc considered Alexandra Feodorovna the wife of the last Tsar a snob, when she was just shy. But Marie Pavlovna and Elena were the real thing.

**Marengo** · #65 03-13-2009, 08:53 PM

I suppose if you are an HIRH it isn't called snobism though, as it stands for sans nobilité, something both women can not be accused of

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branchg · #66 03-14-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexi4

Who got the money from the sale?

Grand Duke Boris. Marie Pavlovna died in Switzerland after escaping Russia in 1920.

snowflower · #67 03-10-2010, 07:36 PM

I believe that Marie Pavlova and Marie Feodorovna didn't really have a bad relationship, in the sence that they didn't detest each other. To me , they seems to be more social rivals and to be competing for the first place in St. Petersburg's society. Who Marie Pavlova really detested was Alix, because she felt that she couldn't live up to the Romanov's expectations. She often commented about her absence from society: " One needs to know how to do his job". And we must admitt that she was probably ideal on that. That's how she earned her title " the Grandest of the Grand Duchesses"

Russophile · #68 03-10-2010, 07:53 PM

Though because of her grandness and the spoiling of Elena, they had a bit of a difficult time finding her a husband.
Though I must say I would have love to have met her. Can you imagine?? The cuts would be deep, the slights done with flair, the magnanimous gestures truely head spinning!

snowflower · #69 03-10-2010, 08:04 PM

Well, Elena prospects of marrigae was a bitter, bitter subject. She was first engaged to Max of Baden but the engagement was borken off and Marie felt so angry and humiliated. Then she pulled her pieces together and decided taht she should try for Albert of Belgium. She insisted that the Imperial couple should invite him for a state visit and made her daughter write a letter to Alix, imploring her to invite him and stating that " her whole future depended on that" But then , the invitation never came and Albert announced his engagement to Elisabeth of Bavaria.... Marie Pavlova even said that Nicholas deliberately didn't help in order to destroy Elena's futrure. Then she decided that maybe a rich Thurn und Taxis prince would be ok enough. But since she managed nothing and after turning down Nicholas of Greece's proposals for two years , she finally let them marry. And the irony is that he was by far the better match any of her children made after all

CarolinaLandgrave · #70 03-11-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowflower

I believe that Marie Pavlova and Marie Feodorovna didn't really have a bad relationship, in the sence that they didn't detest each other. To me , they seems to be more social rivals and to be competing for the first place in St. Petersburg's society. Who Marie Pavlova really detested was Alix, because she felt that she couldn't live up to the Romanov's expectations. She often commented about her absence from society: " One needs to know how to do his job". And we must admitt that she was probably ideal on that. That's how she earned her title " the Grandest of the Grand Duchesses"

Were not Vladimir and Michen instrumental in getting Alix to accept Nicky?? In Caterine Clay's King, Kaiser, Tsar", Nicholas writes that he and Alix had "their talk" after her return from a visit with Aunt Michen...

Russophile · #71 03-11-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

Were not Vladimir and Michen instrumental in getting Alix to accept Nicky?? In Caterine Clay's King, Kaiser, Tsar", Nicholas writes that he and Alix had "their talk" after her return from a visit with Aunt Michen...

That would be interesting because didn't Michen NOT convert from Luthernism until later? After Nicky and Alix were married??

EmpressRouge · #72 03-11-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

Were not Vladimir and Michen instrumental in getting Alix to accept Nicky?? In Caterine Clay's King, Kaiser, Tsar", Nicholas writes that he and Alix had "their talk" after her return from a visit with Aunt Michen...

I've always read that it was Ella (and Wilhelm for dynastic reasons wanted a German relative on the Russian throne) who convinced Alix to convert, being her sister and having gone through the exact same thing (only Ella was not required to convert and only did so after the marriage).

CarolinaLandgrave · #73 03-11-2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

I've always read that it was Ella (and Wilhelm for dynastic reasons wanted a German relative on the Russian throne) who convinced Alix to convert, being her sister and having gone through the exact same thing (only Ella was not required to convert and only did so after the marriage).

As I had always heard as well.... but in Clay's book, page 162:

"A wonderful, unforgettable day in my life - the day of my betrothal to my dear, beloved Alix. She came to Aunt Michen after 10 o'clock and after they had a talk, she and I had our discussion. God, what a mountain has fallen from my shoulders....Wilhelm sat in the next room with the uncles and aunts and waited the outcome of our talk" Nicholas wrote on 20 Apr 1894...

It sounds like Alix went to Aunt Michen with the specific purpose to chat about the religion question (and it seems odd to me seeing that neither she nor Ella converted until much later after their marriage)

Vasillisos Markos · #74 03-12-2010, 07:13 AM

Nicholas' diary entry lacks specifics on the conversation between Michen and Alix. Perhaps the two women merely chatted or perhaps Alix questioned Michen about life in the Russia and how her marriage was affected by her religious beliefs.

CarolinaLandgrave · #75 03-12-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Nicholas' diary entry lacks specifics on the conversation between Michen and Alix. Perhaps the two women merely chatted or perhaps Alix questioned Michen about life in the Russia and how her marriage was affected by her religious beliefs.

This is true.... from the way it reads, this was the topic. As neither of know of will ever know... I guess we have to assume, as you said, it could have been about anything from religion to what was for dinner.... that's the great thing about the unknowns of history... we came interpret it or make it conform to anything. Correct?

Martha · #76 03-12-2010, 07:37 PM

I read that Grand Duchess Vladimir was a difficult woman. She wanted special treatment.

Russophile · #77 03-12-2010, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

It sounds like Alix went to Aunt Michen with the specific purpose to chat about the religion question (and it seems odd to me seeing that neither she nor Ella converted until much later after their marriage)

According to Christopher Warwick (Ella: Pincess, Saint, & Martyr) Ella converted at her marriage to Grand Duke Serge which distressed her father terribly.
Though that is an interesting point, CL, that Alix went specifically to Michen for something. I wish I was a fly on the wall at that meeting. . .

EmpressRouge · #78 03-12-2010, 08:33 PM

So we all know about what a formidable woman, but I don't know anything about Grand Duke Vladimir's character. What was he like? Marie broke off a previous engagement to marry him. Must have been an interesting character himself married to such a woman.

CarolinaLandgrave · #79 03-12-2010, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile

According to Christopher Warwick (Ella: Pincess, Saint, & Martyr) Ella converted at her marriage to Grand Duke Serge which distressed her father terribly.
Though that is an interesting point, CL, that Alix went specifically to Michen for something. I wish I was a fly on the wall at that meeting. . .

ME TOO, Russo - that would have been worth all the gold in the Imperial coffers!
Just to know what Alix and Aunt Michen talked about

CarolinaLandgrave · #80 03-12-2010, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

So we all know about what a formidable woman, but I don't know anything about Grand Duke Vladimir's character. What was he like? Marie broke off a previous engagement to marry him. Must have been an interesting character himself married to such a woman.

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!