The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 01-23-2021, 11:23 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Did Virginia Rebecca legally change her name to Victoria Romanova? Or is it only a religious name that she will use in the Russian context? So, what is stated in her Italian passport?
I can not imagine the Italian Republic changing it from Vittoria Bettarini into Victoria Romanova by authority of the Russian-Orthodox Church. There is not even a legal union between the two, only a private choice of Vittoria to join another Christian denomination.

It wil be the same as a Miss Jane Doe becoming Sister Mary-Benedict or so upon entering religious state. Legally the new Nun remains Miss Jane Doe for the State.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 01-23-2021, 12:21 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 5,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I can not imagine the Italian Republic changing it from Vittoria Bettarini into Victoria Romanova by authority of the Russian-Orthodox Church. There is not even a legal union between the two, only a private choice of Vittoria to join another Christian denomination.

It wil be the same as a Miss Jane Doe becoming Sister Mary-Benedict or so upon entering religious state. Legally the new Nun remains Miss Jane Doe for the State.
It could be that Virginia Rebecca (not Vittoria ) requested the change herself; I wonder whether that is expected (same with Ned when he converted to Islam to be allowed to marry his princess-fiance - I assume his legal name hasn't changed but I'm not sure what would happen if he would request Jordanian citizenship; wouldn't they use his 'Islamic' name?). I agree that the Italian Republic wouldn't act upon the Russian-Orthodox Church's instructions.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 01-24-2021, 06:41 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Same for Carl Christian and his brother Rudolf being incorporated in the Belgian nobility in the early 80s - but with a much lower style (serene highness).
And recognition and registration in an EU memberstate means it is acknowledged by all 27 EU memberstates plus the three EEA countries (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) which accept each other titles and surnames.

In Austria Carl Christian would be Herr Habsburg (not even a von).
With his Belgian Passport he is prins/prince de Habsbourg Lorraine no matter how Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, France or Italy handle former titles. He can identify with this document, he can register as such, he can buy properties or request notarial or juridical acts, their descendants can pass name and titles and I can understand this is important for them.

By my understanding the only legal royal title registered somewhere for the happy fianc is Georg Prinz von Preuen. Whatever happens with his pretensions in Russia, he is and remains a prince of the former Royal House of Prussia. And if he has a German ID, he is registered as Prinz von Preuen. I can not imagine any EU country, let us assume Spain, registering him as Jorge Mijilovich prncipe de Prusia y Romanova, gran-prncipe de Rusia.

For Spanish authorities his father is prncipe de Prusia based on his German passport. But his mother is nowhere a gran-principesa de Rusia. I assume, when she lived in Spain, his mother was registered as Doa Mara Vladmirovna Romanova y Bagratin, without any title.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 01-29-2021, 02:31 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Wouldn't she be Ihre Knigliche Hoheit die Prinzessin Georg von Preuen anyway, as wife of George (who is in reality the son of a Prince of Prussia and titles pass via legal male agnatic descendance)?
Legal titles in Germany, which in reality are surnames, are eligible to pass via legal male or female descendance. The daughter of Iris Princess of Saxony is Xenia Princess of Saxony.

However, whereas Prince of Prussia may be legally registered as a surname in Germany, my understanding is that Royal Highness cannot be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
If Georg, as son of a German father, registers himself in Germany he can use the republican style Georg Prinz von Preuen and as his legally wedded wife she can be Viktoria Prinzessin von Preuen in all legal documents of an EU memberstate. Absolute legality versus titles of pretension as Princess Romanoff which is in no any Russian or Italian municipal registry.

With other words: Mrs Maria V. Romanova can issue a decret in which her daughter-in-law becomes Princess Romanoff but in essence that is the same as my parents making me Emperor of Atlantis. It is pure pretension.

(That is also why the current Duke of Parma and his siblings requested recognition and incorporation of their foreign title into the Nobility of an EU memberstate. Now they have official documents with their legally protected title and surname, no longer a ritle of pretension).
Hasn't he legally registered himself using the surname of his mother? If he is registered as Grofrst von Rusland or Romanoff, I don't think it is possible for him to be registered simultaneously as Prinz von Preuen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
And recognition and registration in an EU memberstate means it is acknowledged by all 27 EU memberstates plus the three EEA countries (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) which accept each other titles and surnames.

In Austria Carl Christian would be Herr Habsburg (not even a von).
With his Belgian Passport he is prins/prince de Habsbourg Lorraine no matter how Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, France or Italy handle former titles. He can identify with this document, he can register as such, he can buy properties or request notarial or juridical acts, their descendants can pass name and titles and I can understand this is important for them.
No, at least some of the EU countries apply their own regulations to their own citizens irrespective of their dual citizenships. The UK for instance refuses registration of even legal foreign titles held by UK citizens.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 01-30-2021, 07:54 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,190
See here for the first section of their wedding ceremony: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2368657



Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Grofrst Georgi und Ihre Hoheit die Frstin Victoria von Ruland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
More correctly "Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Grofrst Georgi von Ruland und Ihre Durchlaucht die Frstin Victoria Romanoff" since Victoria, as per her future mother-in-law's decision, will be a Serene Highness and carry the title of Princess Romanoff.
According to the engagement announcement, she will carry the surname of Romanoff and use the title of Princess (not Princess Romanoff), as well as the predicate of Serene Highness.

Russian Imperial House - 2021-01-20 Announcement of the Upcoming Wedding of His Imperial Highness The Heir, Tsesarevich, and Grand Duke George of Russia and Nob. Victoria Romanovna Bettarini
We deem it proper that VICTORIA ROMANOVNA should, from the moment of her marriage with Our son, have the right to use the dynastic surname Romanoff with the title of Princess and the predicate of Serene Highness.

In reality, the title of Grand Prince (translated into English as Grand Duke) never had any such territorial designation as "of Russia". One may note that, in the Russian version of the announcement, George is not styled "of Russia".

*оссийский Императорский Дом - 2021-01-20 Объявление о предстоящей свадьбе Его Императорского Высочества Государя Наследника Цесаревича и

I suppose the territorial designation is used outside of Russia as an indicator of which royal house the Grand Prince is a member of.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Usually a Frst is a reigning Prince and a Frstin his wife.

But what in the English speaking world is translated as Grand-Duke and Grand-Duchess is in German Groherzog and Groherzogin. (Used for Luxembourg).

In German the Russian title is translated as Grofrst and Grofrstin. The Russian title in Dutch translation: Grootvorst and Grootvorstin. It is more correct because the Latin Magnum Princeps translates in English as Grand-Prince and not as that lousy Grand-Duke.
The English-speaking translations certainly are inconsistent. Velikiy Knyaz is translated as Grand Duke, yet Knyaz is translated as Prince.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
She took the name Victoria Romanova when she converted to Russian Orthodoxy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Her name since birth is Rebecca Virginia (Bettarini) but her 'new name upon conversion to the Russian Orthodox church' (in August last year) is Victoria Romanova.
Just a small correction: As indicated in the engagement announcement, the name she took upon conversion was the patronymic Romanovna, rather than the surname Romanova.

The surname will be taken upon marriage, and in the announcement it appears that outside of Russia she will be using the masculine version of the family name, i.e., Romanoff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
But if he elevated her doesn't he basically admit that he's not the undisputed head of the house? [...] Once he raises her and/or their children to "Imperial" status he has to acknowledge all the other unequal marriages as legitimate for dynasts.
The heads of the former imperial house of Austria did not have to. Despite elevating unequal wives in the junior lines of the family to "imperial" status, they have refused to acknowledge the senior morganatic line of Hohenberg as legitimate dynasts, which would have had the effect of raising the Hohenbergs to the headship.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
King George I (1845-1913) and Grand Duchess Olga Constantinovna of Russia (1851-1926) Marengo Greek Royal History 85 12-02-2020 03:58 AM
Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia and Grand Duchess Kira Kirillovna of Russia - 1938 Marengo Historical Royal Weddings 12 10-30-2018 08:51 PM
Prince Nicholas of Greece & Denmark and Grand Duchess Elena of Russia - 1902 Marengo Historical Royal Weddings 21 10-27-2018 07:48 PM
Princess Marie (1876-1940), later Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna of Russia George Greek Royal History 23 10-22-2016 08:56 PM
Prince Wilhelm of Sweden and Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia - 1908 Marengo Historical Royal Weddings 8 11-26-2014 09:23 PM




Popular Tags
abdication abu dhabi american history anastasia anastasia once upon a time ancestry baby names baptism biography british royal family brownbitcoinqueen buckingham palace countess of snowdon cpr doge of venice dubai duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex elizabeth ii facts family life family tree fashion and style games george vi gradenigo history hochberg hypothetical monarchs imperial household intro italian royal family jacobite japan jewellery kids movie list of rulers luxembourg mountbatten names nepalese royal jewels plantinum jubilee pless prince constantijn prince dimitri prince harry princess alexia (2005 -) princess catharina-amalia princess chulabhorn walailak princess eugenie princess ribha queen louise queen mathilde queen maxima random facts resusci anne royal dress-ups royal jewels royal marriage royal re-enactments. royalty of taiwan royal wedding royal wedding gown serbian royal family snowdon thai royal family uae customs videos wittelsbach


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:27 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×