Engagement of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia & Nob. Rebecca Bettarini

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Did Virginia Rebecca legally change her name to Victoria Romanova? Or is it only a religious name that she will use in the Russian context? So, what is stated in her Italian passport?

I can not imagine the Italian Republic changing it from Vittoria Bettarini into Victoria Romanova by authority of the Russian-Orthodox Church. There is not even a legal union between the two, only a private choice of Vittoria to join another Christian denomination.

It wil be the same as a Miss Jane Doe becoming Sister Mary-Benedict or so upon entering religious state. Legally the new Nun remains Miss Jane Doe for the State.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I can not imagine the Italian Republic changing it from Vittoria Bettarini into Victoria Romanova by authority of the Russian-Orthodox Church. There is not even a legal union between the two, only a private choice of Vittoria to join another Christian denomination.

It wil be the same as a Miss Jane Doe becoming Sister Mary-Benedict or so upon entering religious state. Legally the new Nun remains Miss Jane Doe for the State.

It could be that Virginia Rebecca (not Vittoria ) requested the change herself; I wonder whether that is expected (same with Ned when he converted to Islam to be allowed to marry his princess-fiancée - I assume his legal name hasn't changed but I'm not sure what would happen if he would request Jordanian citizenship; wouldn't they use his 'Islamic' name?). I agree that the Italian Republic wouldn't act upon the Russian-Orthodox Church's instructions.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Same for Carl Christian and his brother Rudolf being incorporated in the Belgian nobility in the early 80s - but with a much lower style (serene highness).

And recognition and registration in an EU memberstate means it is acknowledged by all 27 EU memberstates plus the three EEA countries (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) which accept each other titles and surnames.

In Austria Carl Christian would be Herr Habsburg (not even a von).
With his Belgian Passport he is prins/prince de Habsbourg Lorraine no matter how Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, France or Italy handle former titles. He can identify with this document, he can register as such, he can buy properties or request notarial or juridical acts, their descendants can pass name and titles and I can understand this is important for them.

By my understanding the only legal royal title registered somewhere for the happy fiancé is Georg Prinz von Preußen. Whatever happens with his pretensions in Russia, he is and remains a prince of the former Royal House of Prussia. And if he has a German ID, he is registered as Prinz von Preußen. I can not imagine any EU country, let us assume Spain, registering him as Jorge Mijáilovich príncipe de Prusia y Romanova, gran-príncipe de Rusia.

For Spanish authorities his father is príncipe de Prusia based on his German passport. But his mother is nowhere a gran-principesa de Rusia. I assume, when she lived in Spain, his mother was registered as Doña María Vladímirovna Romanova y Bagratión, without any title.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Wouldn't she be Ihre Königliche Hoheit die Prinzessin Georg von Preußen anyway, as wife of George (who is in reality the son of a Prince of Prussia and titles pass via legal male agnatic descendance)?

Legal titles in Germany, which in reality are surnames, are eligible to pass via legal male or female descendance. The daughter of Iris Princess of Saxony is Xenia Princess of Saxony.

However, whereas Prince of Prussia may be legally registered as a surname in Germany, my understanding is that Royal Highness cannot be.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

If Georg, as son of a German father, registers himself in Germany he can use the republican style Georg Prinz von Preußen and as his legally wedded wife she can be Viktoria Prinzessin von Preußen in all legal documents of an EU memberstate. Absolute legality versus titles of pretension as Princess Romanoff which is in no any Russian or Italian municipal registry.

With other words: Mrs Maria V. Romanova can issue a decret in which her daughter-in-law becomes Princess Romanoff but in essence that is the same as my parents making me Emperor of Atlantis. It is pure pretension.

(That is also why the current Duke of Parma and his siblings requested recognition and incorporation of their foreign title into the Nobility of an EU memberstate. Now they have official documents with their legally protected title and surname, no longer a ritle of pretension).

Hasn't he legally registered himself using the surname of his mother? If he is registered as Großfürst von Rusland or Romanoff, I don't think it is possible for him to be registered simultaneously as Prinz von Preußen.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

And recognition and registration in an EU memberstate means it is acknowledged by all 27 EU memberstates plus the three EEA countries (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) which accept each other titles and surnames.

In Austria Carl Christian would be Herr Habsburg (not even a von).
With his Belgian Passport he is prins/prince de Habsbourg Lorraine no matter how Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, France or Italy handle former titles. He can identify with this document, he can register as such, he can buy properties or request notarial or juridical acts, their descendants can pass name and titles and I can understand this is important for them.

No, at least some of the EU countries apply their own regulations to their own citizens irrespective of their dual citizenships. The UK for instance refuses registration of even legal foreign titles held by UK citizens.

[Tatiana Maria]

See here for the first section of their wedding ceremony: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2368657

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi und Ihre Hoheit die Fürstin Victoria von Rußland.

Originally Posted by JR76

More correctly "Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi von Rußland und Ihre Durchlaucht die Fürstin Victoria Romanoff" since Victoria, as per her future mother-in-law's decision, will be a Serene Highness and carry the title of Princess Romanoff.

According to the engagement announcement, she will carry the surname of Romanoff and use the title of Princess (not Princess Romanoff), as well as the predicate of Serene Highness.

Russian Imperial House - 2021-01-20 Announcement of the Upcoming Wedding of His Imperial Highness The Heir, Tsesarevich, and Grand Duke George of Russia and Nob. Victoria Romanovna Bettarini

We deem it proper that VICTORIA ROMANOVNA should, from the moment of her marriage with Our son, have the right to use the dynastic surname Romanoff with the title of Princess and the predicate of Serene Highness.

In reality, the title of Grand Prince (translated into English as Grand Duke) never had any such territorial designation as "of Russia". One may note that, in the Russian version of the announcement, George is not styled "of Russia".

Ð*оÑ�Ñ�ийÑ�кий ИмператорÑ�кий Дом - 2021-01-20 ОбъÑ�вление о предÑ�тоÑ�щей Ñ�вадьбе Его ИмператорÑ�кого Ð’Ñ‹Ñ�очеÑ�тва ГоÑ�ударÑ� Ð�аÑ�ледника ЦеÑ�аревича и Ð

I suppose the territorial designation is used outside of Russia as an indicator of which royal house the Grand Prince is a member of.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Usually a Fürst is a reigning Prince and a Fürstin his wife.

But what in the English speaking world is translated as Grand-Duke and Grand-Duchess is in German Großherzog and Großherzogin. (Used for Luxembourg).

In German the Russian title is translated as Großfürst and Großfürstin. The Russian title in Dutch translation: Grootvorst and Grootvorstin. It is more correct because the Latin Magnum Princeps translates in English as Grand-Prince and not as that lousy Grand-Duke.

The English-speaking translations certainly are inconsistent. Velikiy Knyaz is translated as Grand Duke, yet Knyaz is translated as Prince.

Originally Posted by Heavs

She took the name Victoria Romanova when she converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

Originally Posted by Somebody

Her name since birth is Rebecca Virginia (Bettarini) but her 'new name upon conversion to the Russian Orthodox church' (in August last year) is Victoria Romanova.

Just a small correction: As indicated in the engagement announcement, the name she took upon conversion was the patronymic Romanovna, rather than the surname Romanova.

The surname will be taken upon marriage, and in the announcement it appears that outside of Russia she will be using the masculine version of the family name, i.e., Romanoff.

Originally Posted by Heavs

But if he elevated her doesn't he basically admit that he's not the undisputed head of the house? [...] Once he raises her and/or their children to "Imperial" status he has to acknowledge all the other unequal marriages as legitimate for dynasts.

The heads of the former imperial house of Austria did not have to. Despite elevating unequal wives in the junior lines of the family to "imperial" status, they have refused to acknowledge the senior morganatic line of Hohenberg as legitimate dynasts, which would have had the effect of raising the Hohenbergs to the headship.