King Louis XVI (1754-1793) and Marie Antoinette of Austria (1755-1793)

[margotantoinette]

At least as far as historical locations are concerned, the film seems like it will be fairly accurate, or as much as it can be in this day and age. They were filming in Versailles and around Paris (the Louvre etc) while I was studying abroad last spring. I got the impression that the French were more or less content with the way most of the historical locations were being portrayed, as well they should be, Versailles was closed off several days a week for filming if my memory serves.

 

[Vanesa]

I don't remember which said it, but during the Revolution when an aristocrat was being taken away to prison to await his execution, he said: "Make sure that after you cut my head off that you hold it up long enough for the crowd to see. It's worth looking at."

Hi, Alicky:

It was an aristocrat who said that, but a "simple commoner" whose name was ...Georges-Jacques Dantom. However, his sentence was...yes creepy-hilarious.

When Marie-Antoinette herself must go over the scalfold, she accidentally walked over the executioner's feet, so she said very politely: "I beg you to forgive me".

Vanesa.

 

[Margrethe II]

When Marie-Antoinette herself must go over the scalfold, she accidentally walked over the executioner's feet, so she said very politely: "I beg you to forgive me".

Vanesa.

Actually, although this statemnt has been under circulation for many, many years,"they" are actually unsure as to whether or not MA did infact step on her executioner's foot and beg his pardon. There is a 50/50 chance that this did or did not happen.

"MII"

 

[Dona Cayetana]

Antonia Fraser Biography

I do not profess to be an expert on Marie Antoinette, but read the Fraser biography last summer while in Paris, (the surroundings added to my motivation to read about this Queen). During the "Terror" nobility suffered greatly along with the Boubons. Reading about the imprisonment of the royal family was pitiful and quite sad, alas a fait suffered by royality repeatedly in history (recently in Nepal in the form of cold blooded murder). Josephine de Beauharnais (wife number 1 of Napoleon Bonaparte) was imprisoned during this time as well.

The Fraser biography treats the circumstances of Maria Antonia's life with a realistic and level hand. Considering court ettiquette in France, and the fact that the Dauphine/Queen was from an Imperial Family (Habsburgs, reinging longer than the Boubons) , she reached adulthood in the trappings of the French Court, away from her family and those close to her. Would it not be realistic for her to be quite aware of her position, or unwisely bestow favors until she got her footing?

Despite her frivolity, she may have been more intellegent than she has been credited for. However, the mid-late 18th century was a time full of intrigue, debauchery, and dissipation. One cannot overlook Casanova (d. 1798), or the Marquis de Sade (d. 1814) for their contributions in this arena.

Another film capturing the essence of the reign of Louis XVI is "Ridicule." French, released in the mid 1990s.

There is also a Gerald Diepardieu film called "Danton," worth watching for historical accuracy. A great portrayal of the terror, revolutionary machinery and Robespierre (guillotined in 1794, Marie Antoinette in 1793, and Danton in 1794).

 

[Margrethe II]

The brutality the royal family and their companions encountered during the revolution is quite gut wrenching...Marie Thérèse Louise de Savoie-Carignan, Princesse de Lamballe not only met her end by the guillotine's blade, but after her death her body was dismembered, her breats cut off & her genitalia mutilated & paraded at Marie Antoinette's window at the Temple..

"MII"

 

[Avalon]

That's one of the worst (imo) things that happened during he revolution. Princess de Lamballe was basically harmless, she only stayed in France (though had the chance to flee to England along with many other aristocrats) to be with her Queen and friend.
Another sad, I would say brutal, story concerns the women of Noailles, sister (22 years old), mother (the Duchess de’Ayen, 45 yeas old) and grandmother (89 years old) of Adrianne La Fayette, wife of Marquis de La Fayette. They were all executed, though they weren't even accused of anything. The only given reason was "prisons full to burst". Marquise de La Fayette escaped the prison only due to personal request of the American ambassador (he couldn't let it happen, given that Marquis de La Fayette was the hero of American revolution).

 

[semisquare]

.

Marie Thérèse Louise de Savoie-Carignan, Princesse de Lamballe not only met her end by the guillotine's blade, but after her death her body was dismembered, her breats cut off & her genitalia mutilated & paraded at Marie Antoinette's window at the Temple..

i didnt know that, for the longest time i thought princesses do lamballe was kill by a mob which dismembered her body and then paraded though the street of paris.

 

[Margrethe II]

It was (and is) also suggested that the princess was the victim of numerous accounts gang rape (the mob), however, these reports have been unsubstantiated in their claims thus far. Some say it is also questionable that she was even mutilated, but much of the critique says otherwise.

I believe that the Princess' entrails were shown to the Queen, not only as a sign of pure contempt & scorn towards the "Austrian Bitch", knowing the effection she held for Lambelle as a confidante & devoted friend, but, as a crude & unforgivable insult relating to the vicious rumours circulating France and much of Europe regarding the platonic nature of their relationship!

 

[semisquare]

i feel so bad for marie antoinette, if only she was given the proper education i would like to think things would have been different for her and her family

 

[Margrethe II]

Marie Antoinette was a smart woman, contrary to what some have written. Her education was equal to her position, that of an 18th century Imperial Archduchess...remember, it was always assumed that Marie would one day be Queen Consort of France. She was groomed for that role since childhood & as a result possessed all the "right" qualities (definitly different to todays standards of education).

During the revolution, she became known as a woman of dignity & honour...even her foes stated that she had the courage and persona of a man (The Comte de Mirabeau for one).

She was an astute woman, just like her Maman. A woman who took in her surroundings and those who inhabited them with precise detail &
Imperceptible interest. She was however, a little naive at times as I am sure we all know.


What could have happend? Well, there's certainly no way of knowing that, but like you semisquare, I have thought once or twice about what things could have been like, had they survived the madness of France.



"MII"

 

[ysbel]

I majored in French and did a paper on Marie Antoinette for my last thesis.

The French were quite concerned with Maria Antonia's education in the year prior to her going to France. A court official wrote at the time that she was naturally intelligent but she was hampered by the fact that up to the age of 9 or so she had never been required to develop the discipline of study. Her French was in the opinion of the royal court not up to par and the first year she was in France she had forgotten so much of her German that she really had trouble communicating in any language.

Another sore spot for the French was her handwriting which was atrocious. They had seen the exercises she had done in Austria and saw a marvelous hand. It came out that her tutor had written the exercises in fine pencil and the young archduchess had merely traced over them in ink.

But her lack of education didn't hinder her so much as it was the lack of disclipine in her early years. In my opinion, even the lack of discipline could have been overcome if her husband had been able to consummate the marriage which he couldn't for several years.

Women around her were having families at that age and I think without the stabilizing influence of a growing family and normal marital relations, the young dauphine's inability to discipline herself put her and her reputation in danger.

She did gain an amazing strength and maturity after the King had the operation and she could have children but by then it was too late.

 

[RussianHistoryBuff]

Question

Did Marie really shout, "let them eat cake"? I heard that that was just a historic bit of trickery. So, I am confused. Someone please tell me.

 

[margotantoinette]

No she didn't. This is a common historical fable, but nothing that actually took place. However, despite this episode having never occured, it is still indicative of the massive divide that existed between the monarchy and the people and how little Marie Antoinette actually knew about the lives of the people at the time. While it wasn't common or even expected that the royals would know about the conditions of the peasants, France at the time of the revolution had perhaps an even greater economic and social divide than many other countries in Europe combined with a King who was ill-prepared for being at the head of an absolute monarchy, and well, the conditions seem to have been inevitable.

 

[Furienna]

I for one also absolutely think, that both Louis and Marie would have been better off, if they had been allowed to wait some more years before they married. There have been some early marriages among royals, Scandinavian queen Margareth was no more than ten years old, when she was married, and her sucessor Philippa of England was no more than thirteen years old. But to force a marriage between a fifteen-year-old and a fourteen-year-old still sounds ridiculous. They could very well have waited four or five more years.

And also, the "Let them have cake!" quote is real, but it wasn't from Marie Antoinette, but from a 17th century princess, I have forgotten her name.

 

[Harry's polo shirt]

They don't seem to me, to have be very patient in those days. Everything then was NOW NOW NOW. They didn't care about others, just the monarchy.

 

[EmpressRouge]

And also, the "Let them have cake!" quote is real, but it wasn't from Marie Antoinette, but from a 17th century princess, I have forgotten her name.

It was Anne of Austria (Queen to Louis XIII) who said it.

 

[Avalon]

It was Anne of Austria (Queen to Louis XIII) who said it.

I know she is thought to have said that, just as Marie Antoinette, but as long as I know it's not a fact, is it?
If she did say that, it must be during the days of Fronde.

 

[Furienna]

They don't seem to me, to have be very patient in those days. Everything then was NOW NOW NOW. They didn't care about others, just the monarchy.

Excactly! It just seems like they wanted to get the wedding over with. I still think it would have been a good idea to let them wait a few more years. Our Swedish king Gustav III and his Danish wife queen Sophie Madeleine were always supposed to marry each other, but they were allowed to wait until they were twenty to actually marry, and that only happened a few years before Louis and Marie were pushed into marriage. Okay, Gustav and Sophie maybe didn't turn out to get a happy marriage anyway, but it still would have been the decent thing to do with Louis and Marie as well. Fourteen-fifteen-year-olds are not quite ready yet to get married.

 

[Furienna]

It was Anne of Austria (Queen to Louis XIII) who said it.

No, it wasn't a queen, that I was thinking of. I was more thinking of a princess born in France.

 

[Harry's polo shirt]

recently someone said that Marie Therese, wife of France's Louis XIV said it 100 years before Marie Antoinette was born. There are many theories, but it is safe to say that it is a fact that Marie Antoinette did not say it. The line was attributed to her, by radical agitators who were trying to turn the public against her.

 

[ysbel]

Victoria Holt's book is pretty good for fiction. She used a lot of the letters that Marie Antoinette wrote to her mother, Empress Maria Theresa of Austria for background on her first years in France.

The Stephan Zweig book though gives a better overview of the entire French court and the jealousies and rivalries that existed there. He also explained a bit about the differences between the Austrian court and the French court. The royal protocol in Vienna was relatively relaxed but the Empress Maria Theresa was very strict when it came to the morals of the court. In France, it was just the opposite, the royal protocol was very strict but the morals were questionable at bet. You could see how dangerous a place it was for the young Dauphine.

I noticed an interesting coincidence when I was posting some info on another French queen, Isabeau of Bavaria, queen of Charles VI in the 1300s.

The most humiliating part of Marie Antoinette's entry into France was her meeting of the French ladies, where she had to take all her clothes and jewelry off and be outfitted with all French clothes. She was so traumatized she broke down and cried in the arms of her new lady-in-waiting. The general reason given for this is that in doing so, she became totally French.

The French in the 1300s also required Isabeau of Bavaria to go through a similar process but for a different reason. Apparently, the French ladies were to inspect the new Queen in the nude to see if she was well formed for childbearing. Her father objected strenously and I don't know if she every went through it.

However, I don't know for sure if it was the same custom but if it was I find it interesting to think that the same custom may have lasted several centuries and just the reasons for it changed.

 

[Lady Night Stalker]

Poor Marie Antioinette. I think the main problems with her are the ones everyone has already mentioned. She was the yougnest daughter of Maria Therese which meant she was most likely the most spoiled. She was forced into a marriage at 14 when she was far too young and naive to deal with the intrigues of the French Court. The problem with Marie Antoinette is that she was trained in everything else expected of a young lady but not how to rule a country. That was the main problem Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI simply did not know how to rule. They never had any experience with actually ruling because Versaille was too firvolous and flighty. The nobles there were there to be in with the royalty. Maybe if she had been older and not just rushed into that marriage and actually learned how to rule France's monarchy might have lasted. I think one of the biggest mistakes in history is that most princesses were not really taught how to rule. Most of these woman would go on to be rulers but nothing more was expected of them beyond a poltical pawn and a trophy wife.

 

[Kastalia]

I like your point of view.I never thought of her that way but i guess you're right.I always like to read and learn for her,i have visited four times the Versaille and i was always trying to imagine her life there

 

[Furienna]

I think so too. They were so stupid making them get married at such a young age! And yeah, the girls could have been taught how to rule a country too.

 

[Vanesa]

There are very good books on Marie-Antoinette, and most of them are accurate and easy to read at the same time.

One of my favorites is "The Fatal Freindship", by Stanley Loomis. The book covers all Marie-Antoinette's life, but is mainly focused in her especial relationship with Count Fersen. It includes a lot about Count Fersen, even after Marie-Antoinette's death.

"Queen of France; A biography of Marie-Antoinette", by André Castelot is an excellent book to go on with.

"Marie-Antoinette and the Count of Fersen", by Evelyn Farr is good to read too, but Stanley Loomis book is better that in.

"To the Scaffold;the life of Marie Antoinette" by Carolly Ericksson, could be reccommended as well.

The other stuff I know is mainly in French. As for Victoria Holt's work, I didn't read it, but I heard its good enough. I suppose I MUST read it.

Vanesa.

 

[bbb]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aN7mJuNikF9k
quotes from article *On June 26, Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres, minister of culture, inaugurated a ``Domaine de Marie-Antoinette'' around the Petit Trianon, the corner of the huge park where the queen relaxed whenever she could get away from the heavily regulated life at the chateau. Starting July 1, the ``Domaine'' will be open to the public.

*When Marie-Antoinette (1755-93) received the Petit Trianon as a gift, the taste in gardening had changed. Instead of Le Notre's classicist style with straight avenues and symmetrical fountains, romantic informality, inspired by the English countryside, was all the rage.
The ``Domaine'' is a perfect example of that new fashion -- an idealized landscape with grottos, waterfalls, ponds, pavilions and cute little temples

 

[Russian]

I very miserable this ill fated queen

It is very a pity to me this queen because she had very tragic destiny. To lose the husband, the son and the daughter... I think, it is impossible to wish it even the most malicious enemy.

 

[Sancia]

It is very a pity to me this queen because she had very tragic destiny. To lose the husband, the son and the daughter... I think, it is impossible to wish it even the most malicious enemy.

Thank you for the precision, we wondered what you meant exactly.

Danielane, French Royalty moderator.

 

[Vanesa]

Marie-Antoinette was very childish and frivolous when she came to France (she was childish...for she INDEED was a child back then! ), but little by little, she improved as a Queen and became a worth and very mature human being.

Some people couldn't simply understand that she arrived being a girl in France, and that she haven't any marital relationships with her husband until seven years after marriage. She wanted children, she was bored and she didn't know what exactly to do with her life. She only was allowed to dance, to play, and to disguise herself in shepherdess. She became quite stubborn and frivolous...until she had her first baby. After it, Marie-Antoinette changed a great deal, as if she was a different person.

Vanesa.

 

[Furienna]

Only one daughter would survive the revolution. Marie Antoinette and Louie XVI were executed, and their son died in prison, I believe. That was a terrible faith for the royal family, yes.