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  #161  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:38 PM
csw csw is offline
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What would happen in terms of Harry and Meghan's children's titles if Her Majesty outlives Charles and William is her successor. Because they would never have been the grandchildren of a monarch would they not become HRH or would it still be automatic? Thank you for any clarification you can give.
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  #162  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:46 PM
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What would happen in terms of Harry and Meghan's children's titles if Her Majesty outlives Charles and William is her successor. Because they would never have been the grandchildren of a monarch would they not become HRH or would it still be automatic? Thank you for any clarification you can give.
I guess that would be up to king William then. There is a precedent though for the sisters of an earl who inherited directly from their grandfather - they become known as Ladies by courtesy as the sisters of an earl. It's not so, though, if the brother is created the first earl of his family. Then they remain mere Misses.
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  #163  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:57 PM
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What would happen in terms of Harry and Meghan's children's titles if Her Majesty outlives Charles and William is her successor. Because they would never have been the grandchildren of a monarch would they not become HRH or would it still be automatic? Thank you for any clarification you can give.
They would still be entitled to the style they are entitled to right now: that is that of children of a duke. Their eldest son would use Harry's secondary title, any other sons would be Lord X Mountbatten-Windsor and daughters Lady Y Mountbatten-Windsor.

The only way for this to change would be for the monarch to decide something differently (but I don't see a reason to do so).
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  #164  
Old 07-21-2018, 02:59 PM
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I guess that would be up to king William then. There is a precedent though for the sisters of an earl who inherited directly from their grandfather - they become known as Ladies by courtesy as the sisters of an earl. It's not so, though, if the brother is created the first earl of his family. Then they remain mere Misses.
That's a totally different situation. Any children they may have are children of a duke, so that's what their styles depend upon unless something supersedes that (such as being the grandchild of a monarch).
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  #165  
Old 07-21-2018, 04:42 PM
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What would happen in terms of Harry and Meghan's children's titles if Her Majesty outlives Charles and William is her successor.

They would never become HRHs in that scenario, unless King William V issued special letters patent creating them princes/princesses of the United Kingdom.


All things being equal, their styles would still be Earl of Dumbarton for Harry and Meghan's eldest son (if any) and Lord/Lady [xxx] Mountbatten-Windsor for their other children, including all of their daughters.
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  #166  
Old 07-21-2018, 04:45 PM
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That's a totally different situation. Any children they may have are children of a duke, so that's what their styles depend upon unless something supersedes that (such as being the grandchild of a monarch).

Of course any children would in that scenario be children of a (normal) duke. But Harry would still be a "Royal" duke who (under "normal" circumstances) would be the son of the king. So his kids would be in the same situation as the granddaughters of an earl, whose father died before he became earl himself. In that case their courtesy title is as if their father inherited, not their brother.
In Harry's case that would mean his children are treated as if Charles had inherited, not William. In case the same rules applied. You never know with Royals....
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  #167  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:14 PM
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. So his kids would be in the same situation as the granddaughters of an earl, whose father died before he became earl himself. ..

Don't granddaughters of an earl need a special authorization from the Queen to use the courtesy style of Lady when their father is outlived by their grandfather and their brother inherits the earldom directly ? Please clarify.


I am almost sure that, based on the wording of the LPs, the style, rank and titular dignity of prince/princess would not be automatic for Harry's children if the present Queen outlived Prince Charles.
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  #168  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:21 PM
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Of course any children would in that scenario be children of a (normal) duke. But Harry would still be a "Royal" duke who (under "normal" circumstances) would be the son of the king. So his kids would be in the same situation as the granddaughters of an earl, whose father died before he became earl himself. In that case their courtesy title is as if their father inherited, not their brother.
In Harry's case that would mean his children are treated as if Charles had inherited, not William. In case the same rules applied. You never know with Royals....
Im not sure what you're saying. if Charles were to predecease his mother, and never become King.. it would be up to William to give the HRH to his brother's children, if he wished to do so...
of course as H is a royale duke, his son would be already Lord Dumbarton (or whatever his secondary title is) and any daughters would be Lady Mary Mountbatten Windsor...
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  #169  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:23 PM
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The Letters Patent of 1917 don’t allow for Harry’s children to be HRH if the Queen outlives Charles.
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  #170  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:54 PM
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The Letters Patent of 1917 don’t allow for Harry’s children to be HRH if the Queen outlives Charles.
yes we know but William could issue new ones.
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  #171  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:52 PM
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Put it this way. *Any* monarch has the will and the pleasure to issue letters patent deeming who carries the titular dignity of titles that denote the closeness to the monarch.

On a whim or even just because he's temporarily lost his marbles for a while, Charles could, in all respect, deem Mr. Thomas Markle, Sr. as the official court jester with the title "Esteemed Clown to the King" if he wanted to.

That's what the will and pleasure of the monarch entails. Its solely up to them what they want to do. Titles of peers though go through governmental approval.
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  #172  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:40 PM
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yes we know this but the trend has been over the past 100 years to cut down on titles. Instead of the prince title descending in perpetuity, it was restricted to the grandsons of the Monarch in the male line. Even Edward was only given an Earldom and his children are only known by the titles of Viscount and Lady....

Hereditary peerages haven't been given now for a long time.. If the queen does not given H's children the HRH, they wotn have it automatically. If Charles does not want to do it, Harry will have to wait and hope his brother will give it to any children he has...
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  #173  
Old 07-21-2018, 09:11 PM
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If the queen does not given H's children the HRH, they wotn have it automatically. If Charles does not want to do it, Harry will have to wait and hope his brother will give it to any children he has...
No, I think your statement is incorrect--Harry's children will automatically be HRH once Charles becomes King unless letters patent are issued to exclude that from happening-as in the case of the Earl of Wessex's children. Only if Charles never becomes King would William need to issue letters patent for Harry 's children to be HRH.
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  #174  
Old 07-21-2018, 09:39 PM
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yes we know this but the trend has been over the past 100 years to cut down on titles. Instead of the prince title descending in perpetuity, it was restricted to the grandsons of the Monarch in the male line. Even Edward was only given an Earldom and his children are only known by the titles of Viscount and .
Edward given an earldom isn’t part of slimming down the monarchy. It’s so the Duke of Edinburgh title would be given to one of the Queen and Prince Philip’s children after it merges with the Crown.
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  #175  
Old 07-21-2018, 09:41 PM
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No, I think your statement is incorrect--Harry's children will automatically be HRH once Charles becomes King unless letters patent are issued to exclude that from happening-as in the case of the Earl of Wessex's children. Only if Charles never becomes King would William need to issue letters patent for Harry 's children to be HRH.
That’s correct. Unless Charles does something to make it known they won’t be HRHs, either through his will or LP, they’ll automatically be HRHs when Charles becomes king.
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  #176  
Old 07-21-2018, 09:42 PM
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Im not sure what you're saying. if Charles were to predecease his mother, and never become King.. it would be up to William to give the HRH to his brother's children, if he wished to do so...
of course as H is a royale duke, his son would be already Lord Dumbarton (or whatever his secondary title is) and any daughters would be Lady Mary Mountbatten Windsor...
Earl of Dumbarton.
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  #177  
Old 07-21-2018, 10:01 PM
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Goodness! They have only been married for 2 months! Let's wait until there is an actual pregnancy/birth and then we will all know what happens!
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  #178  
Old 07-21-2018, 10:25 PM
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Earl of Dumbarton.

Any marquess, earl, viscount or baron may be called alternatively "Lord [Title Designation]". Normally, the full title is used in written citations or in correspondence (on envelopes for example) whereas "Lord [Title]" is preferred in conversation or oral address.


For example:


The Rt Hon The Earl of Airlie / Lord Airlie

In courtesy titles, as used by the eldest son of a peer, one omits, however, styles (e.g. The Most Hon or The Rt Hon ) and the article "the" before the title. In other words, one would write/say simply:


Earl of Dumbarton / Lord Dumbarton
Viscount Linley / Lord Linley


Alternatively, it is possible to use the name and family name followed by the courtesy title, e.g.


James Mountbatten-Windsor, Viscount Severn
Charles Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley
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