Possible Dukedom for Harry and Meghan

[principessa]

Sorry if I might go off-topic now: But how clear was the dukedom of William before his marriage for you? And is it now comparable to the possible dukedom of Harry?

 

[Gawin]

Cambridge, Sussex, and Clarence were bandied about in the media for Willliam.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...-and-Kate-Middletons-new-titles-revealed.html

Cambridge was an excellent choice because it had many associations with the BRF, especially Queen Mary. She was the granddaughter of Adolphus Frederick, Duke of Cambridge, and the sister of Prince Adolphus of Teck who (during WWI) took Cambridge as his surname and was created Marquess of Cambridge. His son George the 2nd and last Marquess died in 1981.

 

[Jacknch]

Indeed, the title suggestions for William were no clearer back then than they are for Harry now.

There seems to be a slight shift here on TRF recently from Sussex to Clarence - if it is a choice between the two, then my preference would be for Clarence but I have a feeling it will be Sussex!

 

[wyevale]

Sussex is a widely known, and rather beautiful County, whereas Clare [from which Clarence derives] is a highly obscure place , a village, or [at a pinch] small town, unknown to pretty much everyone here [let alone abroad]..

 

[Stefan]

Cambridge was alo rumoured for Prince Edward before his Wedding if i remember it right. and what he got in the End was a surprise because everysone expetced him to become a Duke.

 

[Mbruno]

Cambridge was alo rumoured for Prince Edward before his Wedding if i remember it right. and what he got in the End was a surprose because everysone expetced him to become a Duke.

Maybe Harry will also get only an earldom and surprise everyone.

 

[Somebody]

An important difference is that Harry's title is for life and expected to be passed down to the next generation(s) while William's title is temporary.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Sussex is a widely known, and rather beautiful County, whereas Clare [from which Clarence derives] is a highly obscure place , a village, or [at a pinch] small town, unknown to pretty much everyone here [let alone abroad]..

Is that of any importance? What were the bonds of Prince Philippos Andreas of Greece and Denmark with the beautiful city of Edinburgh? What was (if there was any) the relation between William and Cambridge that "delivered" him that Dukedom? I doubt the beauty or obscurity of a place had any relecance in handing out dukedoms.

 

[wyevale]

^ Edinburgh and Cambridge are RENOWNED the World over...'Clare' *not so much*..

 

[Stefan]

Maybe Harry will also get only an earldom and surprise everyone.

I think Edward was a special case because it was the wish of his parents that he will once get Edinbrugh which was not possible to give him om his Wedding Day because of the special circumsdances.

 

[Stefan]

An important difference is that Harry's title is for life and expected to be passed down to the next generation(s) while William's title is temporary.

I also think Cambridge was a good choice for William but on the other hand it would have deserved not to used as termporary title but one who wile remain and passed down like Kent and Gloucester. But perhaps William will once give it to Louis in around 30 years.

 

[jacqui24]

Maybe Harry will also get only an earldom and surprise everyone.

And why would that be? I think Edward is the first in long history of royal princes not to get a dukedom, and that was clearly explained why. I don’t see how that would be the case for Harry.

 

[Pranter]

I think Harry will get a dukedom.


LaRae

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I would pick it too if it were available, but, unfortunately, as we have beeen discussing for the past two pages, it is not.

Personally, I think Parliament should impose a "statute of limitations" on claims under the Titles Deprivation Act. Never mind whether the Saxe-Coburg descendants are legitimate or not under British law; if a claim in a specific context like that has not been made in 100 years or so, the right to petition should expire.

Plus they are Germans and Germany does not recognize titles, not even foreign ones as a means to make a difference to "normal" citizens. So why should anyone apply to get a title they have no use of, because AFAIK Britain does not recognize noble titles when the holder is not British. Or do they?

The legitimacy and claims of the German Saxe-Coburgs were also discussed in the thread Line of Succession to the British Throne. In brief, it's possible that Albany could be legally available, as the legitimacy of the Duke of Albany's descendants under British law is conditional on their ancestors' marriages, which appear to have been void under the Royal Marriages Act, having been retroactively validated via the Succession to the Crown Act. The requirements for validation were

(5)A void marriage under that Act is to be treated as never having been void if—

(a)neither party to the marriage was one of the 6 persons next in the line of succession to the Crown at the time of the marriage,

(b)no consent was sought under section 1 of that Act, or notice given under section 2 of that Act, in respect of the marriage,

(c)in all the circumstances it was reasonable for the person concerned not to have been aware at the time of the marriage that the Act applied to it, and

(d)no person acted, before the coming into force of this section, on the basis that the marriage was void.

Succession to the Crown Act 2013

In my opinion, it is debatable if requirement (c) covers the marriages of Charles Edward's descendants.

I think Edward is the first in long history of royal princes not to get a dukedom, and that was clearly explained why.

The court never explained why Edward was not given a dukedom at his wedding (he could have been created duke of Cambridge on his wedding day and received the dukedom of Edinburgh when it became available). There were reports that Edward requested the title Earl of Wessex due to liking the sound of it, including this https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...am-asks-the-Queen-not-to-make-him-a-duke.html

Likewise I suspect that Sussex will be chosen over Clarence as most people seem to think that it sounds better.

 

[Somebody]

I also think Cambridge was a good choice for William but on the other hand it would have deserved not to used as termporary title but one who wile remain and passed down like Kent and Gloucester. But perhaps William will once give it to Louis in around 30 years.

That seems a very likely option. A bit like Edward becoming the duke of Edinburgh at some point in the future.

 

[Curryong]

Surely, if William is King and Andrew has passed Louis will be given the dukedom of York as second son.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Surely, if William is King and Andrew has passed Louis will be given the dukedom of York as second son.

If Louis is married in 30-35 years Andrew could be 88-93 years old, possible considering much of his family's longevity.
And if the York title only became recently vacant when Louis marries I doubt it would be given to Louis out of respect.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Surely, if William is King and Andrew has passed Louis will be given the dukedom of York as second son.

Not if he has already been given a dukedom.

 

[Countessmeout]

Prince Andrew is only 58. Considering the longevity of lives in this family, a lot to think he would be dead when Louis married (when he is made duke). If he is like his father, Andrew may not even be 90 yet.

Giving a title just recently vacated by death may be considered a bit morbid or lacking thought. Especially since there will still be Beatrice and Eugenie of York.

It seems far more likely that the next time the Duke of York will be given, will be to a second son of George.

Or one could hope, maybe a second child despite gender. But that's hoping for too much I fear.

The court never explained why Edward was not given a dukedom at his wedding (he could have been created duke of Cambridge on his wedding day and received the dukedom of Edinburgh when it became available). There were reports that Edward requested the title Earl of Wessex due to liking the sound of it, including this

Simple matter that a double dukedom had not been done in 1890 for Albert Victor. Even before him, a double dukedom was not common. It made sense they made him an Earl, and when Charles is king, he will gain his dukedom then.

Besides it wouldn't be Duke of Cambridge and Edinburgh. It would be HRH Duke of Cambridge, Duke of Edinburgh. They would be separate peerages, not a double territory dukedom like Clarence.

 

[Stefan]

That seems a very likely option. A bit like Edward becoming the duke of Edinburgh at some point in the future.

And the same as when in 1920 King George V. gave his former Dukedom of York to his second son Albert

 

[Gawin]

Yes, and George V also gave Albert the same subsidiary titles he had used - Earl of Inverness and Baron Killarney. It was quite an honor for the Prince. It would also be an honor if William eventually gives Louis his own titles.

I think Countessmeout made some very good points & none of William's sons will likely be given the York title.

The Hanovers seemed to like double titles. All three younger sons of Frederick Prince of Wales received double dukedoms:

Edward Duke of York & Albany
William Duke of Gloucester & Edinburgh
Henry Duke of Cumberland & Strathearn

Of the six younger sons of George III, four received double dukedoms:

Frederick Duke of York & Albany
William Duke of Clarence & St. Andrews
Edward Duke of Kent & Strathearn
Ernest Augustus Duke of Cumberland & Teviotdale

Two received a single title:

Augustus Duke of Sussex
Adolphus Duke of Cambridge

Queen Victoria created only two double dukedoms:

Arthur Duke of Connaught & Strathearn (her third son)
Albert Victor Duke of Clarence & Avondale (her grandson)

No double titles have been created since then.

 

[Mbruno]

The legitimacy and claims of the German Saxe-Coburgs were also discussed in the thread Line of Succession to the British Throne. In brief, it's possible that Albany could be legally available, as the legitimacy of the Duke of Albany's descendants under British law is conditional on their ancestors' marriages, which appear to have been void under the Royal Marriages Act, having been retroactively validated via the Succession to the Crown Act. The requirements for validation were



Succession to the Crown Act 2013

In my opinion, it is debatable if requirement (c) covers the marriages of Charles Edward's descendants.

Would the burden of proof regarding requirement (c) fall on Charles Edward's descendants ?

A bold move would be to simply ignore the Germans and give Harry the Albany title. It is unlikely that the title would be challenged in the courts and, even if it were, the challenger may not succeed.

 

[wyevale]

Since Germany [and German citizens ] have NO legally recognised Titles, 'appealing' such a creation would be pointless for them..
However since the decision of the British Court is not ABSOLUTELY predictable, and the claimant may take it to the European Court of Human Rights, it seems better not to risk being involved in a potentially inflammable Court case [especially during this period of Brexit]...

 

[Andy T]

I can't imagine for one minute that the Windsors want to be bothered with unnecessary and easily avoidable disputes concerning the Cumberland and Albany titles, and will neatly sidestep the issues by coming up with a different dukedom.

Sussex -for me remains the most likely

Harry "Clarry" Clarence - the onomatopoeic choice

Ross - if there's a PR decision to focus on Scotland, which might be a consideration given that there may be a gap between the current "Duke of Edinburgh" and a future one.

....and if I had to go for a surprise/outsider, I'd pick
"Duke of Oxford(shire)", for its symmetry with William's title and to honour the other of the two leading university cities.

 

[alvinking]

I have been thinking about this for a while now.

The dukedom of York in the Peerage of England and the Dukedom of Albany in the Peerage of Scotland are traditionally reserved for the second so of monarch.

The randomness of history worked well for the Dukedom of York since its sixth creation.

If HRH Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale had lived to become PoW, and then King, the title of Duke of York would have been transmitted to HRH Prince Edward of York (Future King Edward VIII, and future Duke of Windsor). Even in this case nature would have played it role, since the Duke of Windsor did not have any issue, so the title would have merged with the crown at his death.

The randomness of history (ie the death of the Duke of Clarence and Avondale) made the Duke of York the heir, and he became HM king George V and the title was merge back to the crown.

Fast forward a couple of years for the seventh creation of the title Duke of York for HRH Prince Albert, Duke of York (Future George VI). had HM King Edward VIII never abdicated, HRH Prince Albert, Duke of York would have remained Duke of York, and here again the randomness of history played a role, since he did not have any male issue,but rather, only Princess Elizabeth, and Princess Margaret Rose. So at his Death; the title of Duke of York would still have merged back to the crown. In reality he became King and the title merged back.

Eighth Creation HRH Prince Andrew, Duke of York, here again the randomness of history plays it role, since Prince Andrew does not have any male issue, but rather, Princess Beatrice, and Princess Eugenie. At this time, Andrew is 58 and is unlikely that he will have a male descendant, so the title of York will merge back to the crown at his death.

But it is entirely possible that in the future will have a string of title holders and male heirs (for instance, the actual Earl Spencer is the 8th, and his son will be the 9th). If and when this happens, the title of Duke of York, will cease to be a royal dukedom associated with second son of the monarch.

To avoid this situation, the titles of Duke of York and Duke of Albany should be made like the titles of Duke of Cornwall, and Princess Royal, this way they will be forever associated with the monarch, and always available to be granted when vacant to the second son of the monarch.

 

[alvinking]

many hope, for Harry

Duke of Clarence, Earl of Ross, for the barony i have no idea

But i would also be happy with Duke of Sussex, Earl of Ross.

Would it be nice if Harry is Duke of Clarence, and if sometime in the future his Official London Residence is Clarence House, it would be neat.

 

[Gawin]

I really like Ross too. It sounds nice, it would honor Scotland, and because the press seems to think Sussex will be chosen it would be a nice surprise. Just like the Cambridges surprised us with Louis.

 

[Ista]

The press seems to be making a lot of assumptions, as usual. I think it would be amusing if not only was the name not Sussex, but if it was an earldom rather than a dukedom. Somehow, nothing would surprise me.

 

[principessa]

If Harry had the possibility to "wish" a dukedom? I am sure that Harry and Meghan already know how their future title!

 

[Denville]

The press seems to be making a lot of assumptions, as usual. I think it would be amusing if not only was the name not Sussex, but if it was an earldom rather than a dukedom. Somehow, nothing would surprise me.

I can't imagine why it woud not be a dukedom. Edward only got an earldom because at the time the RF was not very popular.. and they were tryng to "downsize" on te wedding and the titles.. and there was the idea that he would get Philip's Dukedom later on....