Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Lady Reem]

Formally joining a church, in many mainstream denominations, requires being baptized. One cannot fully participate in church services, for example take communion, without being baptized first.

Denville's point is correct then. If Meghan had had an interest in being a full member of a mainstream Christian church before, she would have been already baptized. When she expressed a desire to become a member of the CoE, she was told to be baptized and confirmed.

Oh really, were you there with her when she was told and if not how can you know that for certain when that hasn’t been reported anywhere? If it has then please provide a link. Who is to say she didn’t decide of her own accord to go the whole hog re joining the CoE?

@Osipi ...well put, succinct and factual. Thank you. Additionally, Princess Michael of Kent was/is also a princess of the UK when she married the Prince and still maintains her Catholic root long before the rules about Catholicism and the British throne were changed. The world hasn’t spun off its axis, as yet.

“Denville's point is correct then. If Meghan had had an interest in being a full member of a mainstream Christian church before, she would have been already baptized”

“To be clear, I am not questioning Meghan's sincerity. I am just saying that, whether she genuinely wanted to join the CoE or not, she would probably have to do it anyway as Prince Harry's wife.”

And yes you are questioning Meghan’s sincerity in spite of your denial in post #876

 

[MARG]

Since no one here can see and read Meghan's hear no one knows what she feels. Yes for the Marriage she had to join the church but that doesn't mean anything it takes some people a while to find a religion they are comfortable with .

I am bemused by the repeated statements that Meghan had to join the CoE. That is straight out untrue. Any public services that the BRF attend such as Commonwealth Day, various Memorial services, etc. do not include Holy Communion.

Even on Christmas Day, the family goes down to the Church for Holy Communion at the early service and late morning returns in all their finery for a family service.

In short, throughout the year the majority of the BRF attend church regularly and privately so there was no need, let alone requirement unless Meghan felt it was for herself. I understand she attended less formal churches with friends in Toronto and am aware that many do not have a requirement for Confirmation, etc. It makes them no lesser places of worship nor their parishioners those seeking God's grace.

There is something unwholesome about the alacrity with which some are suggesting Meghan's choice to formally join the CofE is a giant con. I can only wonder what makes it so important that Meghan's formalising her faith should be belittled, smeared and rubbished. Does it pose a threat?

 

[Rudolph]

Why be the odd person out. There is a state religion and the The Queen is it’s leader
There is all kinds of upside to joining, so why not do it, as she is.

 

[Osipi]

Kind of reminds me of my mother always saying to me "if everyone jumped off the Empire State Building, is that a reason for you to do it too?"

Maybe I am the odd one out because when it comes to church, worship and spiritual beliefs and practice, I believe its something that's totally personal and not like joining in the Starbuck's flavor of the month club with a membership card and all. 10 punches on your church card gets your foot in the Pearly Gates and a bottle of wing softener.

I choose to believe that Meghan's actions in being baptized and confirmed in the CoE stems solely because it was something she honestly felt she wanted to do and not because its a "state" religion.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Although technically not required, I believe it would be naive to assume that Meghan could marry into the BRF without joining the CoE. The CoE is still a state church and princesses of the Royal House are accordingly expected to be members thereof. Similarly, it was expected that Henrik, Mary and Marie would join the Lutheran Church of Denmark.

Maxima didn't join the Dutch Reformed church (or rather its successor, the PKN), but the situation is different in the Netherlands in the sense that, although the Orange-Nassaus are personally identified with the Dutch Reformed religion, it is not an established state church like in England or Denmark. Even so, it must have taken a lot of personal conviction for Maxima not to convert, and I commend her for that.

Princess Michael of Kent didn't convert from Roman Catholicism when she married into the CoE - no one expected her to do so and she became a Princess on her marriage.

I can find no mention of whether The Duchess of Gloucester ever become CoE or whether she remained Lutheran.

Princess Marina of Greece had both a CoE and Greek Orthodox wedding suggesting that she remained Orthodox - at least at the time of her wedding.

Then there is the Duchess of Kent who converted away from CoE - and is still a Princess of the UK.

There is no requirement ... the most recent law on this matter, 2015, even says that the religion or denomination of the spouse no longer affects the rights of the born royal so that Prince Michael of Kent was restored to the line of succession.

 

[Rudolph]

Of course no requirements when you’re in the double digits of succession but closer to the throne and eyebrows would be raised. Not that Harry’s children would ever be on the throne but his (catholic) children would be in communion with a different church than his granny. I think that would garner comment.

 

[Osipi]

In addition. all canons of the CoE have to be ratified by the UK parliament. People may not like the term “state church” and choose to use the more benign designation “ established church”, but a church that is regulated by the State legislature and whose supreme governor is the Head of State is a state church.

The more I think about it, I remember how, when and why the Church of England was established and I think having the monarch as Supreme Governor and its being regulated by Parliament was directed more towards keeping the Roman Catholics out than anything else.

When it comes to the royal family, the main concern is that in order to wear the Crown as monarch, one has to be adherent to the established Church of England. As it stands now, spouses can be whatever floats their boat when it comes to their religious leanings.

 

[M. Payton]

Kind of reminds me of my mother always saying to me "if everyone jumped off the Empire State Building, is that a reason for you to do it too?"

Maybe I am the odd one out because when it comes to church, worship and spiritual beliefs and practice, I believe its something that's totally personal and not like joining in the Starbuck's flavor of the month club with a membership card and all. 10 punches on your church card gets your foot in the Pearly Gates and a bottle of wing softener.

I choose to believe that Meghan's actions in being baptized and confirmed in the CoE stems solely because it was something she honestly felt she wanted to do and not because its a "state" religion.

I just thought after reading this thread and I have to say I agree with my sister's comment above, just why in the heck is it anybody's darn business what Meghan does in regards to her personal/private choice of religion? It is NOT OUR BUSINESS who she or anyone else's worships or joins what church. It is nobody's business here, everyone here what church you belong to or not and don't give me that she is now going to be a member of the BRF and that makes it okay to meddle in her affairs....it sure in the heck does not! Religion is entirely a personal and private matter with each person and their choice of creator, it is not up to anyone here to say what she should do or not.......I grew up in the Lutheran, went to sunday schools, all church events and then taught Sunday school when older, today I believe strongly that my creator and I have our own personal relationship that is NOBODY'S business and the same goes for Meghan.

She has enough on her plate at the moment and lots of stress to go with it, to be concerned about religion .......she I believe is one very strong intelligent and can deal with what ever is thrown at her.....so give her a break for you might not like it if this was thrown at you the way it is thrown at her........

 

[jacqui24]

I just thought after reading this thread and I have to say I agree with my sister's comment above, just why in the heck is it anybody's darn business what Meghan does in regards to her personal/private choice of religion? It is NOT OUR BUSINESS who she or anyone else's worships or joins what church. It is nobody's business here, everyone here what church you belong to or not and don't give me that she is now going to be a member of the BRF and that makes it okay to meddle in her affairs....it sure in the heck does not! Religion is entirely a personal and private matter with each person and their choice of creator, it is not up to anyone here to say what she should do or not.......I grew up in the Lutheran, went to sunday schools, all church events and then taught Sunday school when older, today I believe strongly that my creator and I have our own personal relationship that is NOBODY'S business and the same goes for Meghan.

She has enough on her plate at the moment and lots of stress to go with it, to be concerned about religion .......she I believe is one very strong intelligent and can deal with what ever is thrown at her.....so give her a break for you might not like it if this was thrown at you the way it is thrown at her........

I’ll co-sign and make that three. It’s quite uncomfortable to question someone’s religion, especially someone we don’t personally know. It’s all fun and amusement to gossip about some supposed rumors, but even the tabloids haven’t gone that far.

I know people will say this is fair game because the monarch is the head of Church of England, I disagree. The law is very clear on this. Harry keeps his place in line to the throne regardless of his wife’s religion. If they thought it was that important the senior royals only be married to someone in the Anglican Church, they would’ve made that into law when they changed the law. They thought of keeping the first six in line to require the Queen’s permission to marry, they could require the same for religion or someone would be out of line of succession. Clearly, they didn’t find it necessary.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Meghan has for sure bitten off a lot culturally, and we even think we are 'the same'. We aren't as all this demonstrates. It's a lot on her. Thankfully it is a love match and appears solid (though if one goes on-line elsewhere the naysayers are harrowing). She's on an express train. Sending her good juju!

 

[ACO]

There is something unwholesome about the alacrity with which some are suggesting Meghan's choice to formally join the CofE is a giant con. I can only wonder what makes it so important that Meghan's formalising her faith should be belittled, smeared and rubbished. Does it pose a threat?

Yeah I find some of these comments very interesting as well.

 

[jacqui24]

I just want to add again that if the Archbishop of Canterbury, who clearly spent a good deal of time with Meghan on this, didn't find her faith to be questionable enough to baptize and confirm her himself. Who are we to question her faith without having had one discussion with her about it?

 

[Pranter]

We shouldn't be. We should accept that in good faith she is converting for the right reasons and leave it in the hands of the clergy involved who know 99 percent MORE info than we do.


LaRae

 

[AdmirerUS]

I just thought after reading this thread and I have to say I agree with my sister's comment above, just why in the heck is it anybody's darn business what Meghan does in regards to her personal/private choice of religion?

Well, it is not my business as I am American.

But as I read many UK forum members, the National Religion thing counts.

 

[M. Payton]

No it does not count for a persons religious beliefs are personal for that person only, this is not the *inquisition* for goodness sake. To ask someone how they worship, whom the believe in, or anything to do with religion is down right rude, insulting and borders on the low mentality of the human race, well the human race already is at it's lowest level in history from all I see and read. This is not just a British issue, it is a personal issue for Meghan and nobody's darn business......would you like it if someone ask all of this of you or anyone here? I do not think so, I equate it to asking anyone here something like.....oh, what color of underwear are we wearing today, ....personal questions need to be left for knowing people on a very personal level and in private.....not on a forum with thousands of humans beings who want to put their nose where it does not belong.

As someone said to me recently in a PM, *Oh of the human race I do despair*.............How very true in reading this thread and a few others on Harry and Meghan....

I do apologize for sounding a bit tough on that subject yet I firmly believe even though we follow and discuss subjects on royal families that some subjects are not and should not be brought forth and torn apart the way they have been on Harry and Meghan. Each of these royals as with us, have a private personal life that includes things that are just that..*personal and private* as it should be.

What Meghan does or doesn't do is up to her only and Harry, yet remember she is an individual with great common sense and strong character, she will do fine, yet it is some here that I feel are not doing so fine with such strong criticism and negative comments.

And the BRF is not going to fall apart over what religion Meghan chooses for they will continue to carry on as always.

 

[Mbruno]

Any news on Meghan’s naturalization process in the UK and/or about her renouncing her US citizenship ?

 

[Lady Nimue]

Any news on Meghan’s naturalization process in the UK and/or about her renouncing her US citizenship ?

My understanding is Meghan is going to go through the 'normal process' which is why her children, likely born during that 5 year waiting period starting upon her marriage in May, will de dual citizens of the UK/US. Kinda cool methinks.

 

[MARG]

Any news on Meghan’s naturalization process in the UK and/or about her renouncing her US citizenship ?

My understanding is Meghan is going to go through the 'normal process' which is why her children, likely born during that 5 year waiting period starting upon her marriage in May, will de dual citizens of the UK/US. Kinda cool methinks.

There has been no announcement about Meghan being fast-tracked because the powers that be felt many people would find that unfair, bad optics, etc. However, with so many things going on and the fact that the government has plans for the junior royals and that Catherine is going to be out of action they may rethink.

It is very difficult to send a royal couple out to represent the UK when one of them is not a citizen in so far as it muddies the water. Some government person even floated the idea that they should visit the US. Can't you just see it, 'Ladies and gentlemen, HRH Prince Harry and his wife Megan . . . erm Prince Harry, what's your wife's new surname?

I shall wait and see what happens next.

 

[jacqui24]

There has been no announcement about Meghan being fast-tracked because the powers that be felt many people would find that unfair, bad optics, etc. However, with so many things going on and the fact that the government has plans for the junior royals and that Catherine is going to be out of action they may rethink.

It is very difficult to send a royal couple out to represent the UK when one of them is not a citizen in so far as it muddies the water. Some government person even floated the idea that they should visit the US. Can't you just see it, 'Ladies and gentlemen, HRH Prince Harry and his wife Megan . . . erm Prince Harry, what's your wife's new surname?

I shall wait and see what happens next.

Her citizenship has no effect on her being HRH Duchess of X if Harry is given a title on his wedding day. She was going to be a working royal when they made that decision. US doesn’t recognize titles anyways, the royals are addressed by their titles as curtesy.

 

[Pranter]

Which is surprising considering that the Pope was recently in Sweden with the president of the World Lutheran Federation and the primate of the Church of Sweden to mark 500 years of the Reformation.

Not really ...just because they are Lutheran doesn't mean they would agree with that decision.


LaRae

 

[Osipi]

So there we have it. As far as Meghan joining the Church of England, she not only has the approval of the Supreme Governor of the Church of England (which is the Queen) but also the Archbishop of Canterbury who is the senior bishop and principal leader of the Church of England, the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican Communion and the diocesan bishop of the Diocese of Canterbury.

I don't think it can get more official than that.

 

[Jacknch]

A number of off-topic posts taking the thread off-track have been deleted. This thread is specifically about Meghan's citizenship and religious conversation, not about anyone else's. Since Meghan has now officially become a member of the Church of England, it seems there is no longer a need to debate or speculate upon her religious beliefs.

 

[MARG]

I have read several articles in reputable US publications pondering on Meghan's tax returns to the IRS where they seemed sure that she would have to disclose the monetary value of not just income, but the value of any gifts and, more importantly, loans such as jewellery. Even the tiara for the wedding.

In point of fact they would require more specific details of royal finances than the British government does

Perhaps the government would be prudent to gift Meghan her citizenship as a wedding present.

 

[Pranter]

Yes if you win prizes at a game show, lottery, gifts over a certain dollar amount etc those have to be reported as income.

I think she'll be a Brit citizen by the end of this year.


LaRae

 

[Terri Terri]

I've been reading those articles too....I would think that the royal family's lawyers and accountants should be advising Meghan on these issues. I have read about the fact that Meghan can file under the status of 'married filing separately'. There will be less tax concessions but then again, she will no longer be earning the kind of income she was receiving as a full time actress. Her own income for year 2018 would be from royalties, residuals or whatever investments she had in the US.

 

[Pranter]

Yeah I'm sure they have this being handled by accountant attys.

This isn't the first American woman with her own money to marry over there...some of it is probably very routine for them.


LaRae

 

[Roslyn]

I've been reading those articles too....I would think that the royal family's lawyers and accountants should be advising Meghan on these issues. I have read about the fact that Meghan can file under the status of 'married filing separately'. There will be less tax concessions but then again, she will no longer be earning the kind of income she was receiving as a full time actress. Her own income for year 2018 would be from royalties, residuals or whatever investments she had in the US.

Yes, I am sure their lawyers and accountants will be advising her, and that it will be dealt with discreetly and appropriately.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I have read several articles in reputable US publications pondering on Meghan's tax returns to the IRS where they seemed sure that she would have to disclose the monetary value of not just income, but the value of any gifts and, more importantly, loans such as jewellery. Even the tiara for the wedding.

In point of fact they would require more specific details of royal finances than the British government does

Perhaps the government would be prudent to gift Meghan her citizenship as a wedding present.

That would be a great idea! Wonder if they do it? It would solve a lot of ambiguities, like children being dual citizens.

 

[MARG]

I was astounded that they said even the value of the home they live in and pay rent or a mortgage on would be required. Since it is part and parcel of Kensington Palace I don't think anyone would actually know and if they did they would be more than a little reluctant to provide it.

The biggest puzzler for me was the requirement to provide a value for any jewellery loans, long or short, gifts I could understand even if I think they have no right to anything in that realm. I really imagine that the value of such things are unknown especially if they were auctioned. With their provenance, the price would be through the roof.

Since neither of these categories can be considered income, why do they need to know?

 

[jacqui24]

I was astounded that they said even the value of the home they live in and pay rent or a mortgage on would be required. Since it is part and parcel of Kensington Palace I don't think anyone would actually know and if they did they would be more than a little reluctant to provide it.

The biggest puzzler for me was the requirement to provide a value for any jewellery loans, long or short, gifts I could understand even if I think they have no right to anything in that realm. I really imagine that the value of such things are unknown especially if they were auctioned. With their provenance, the price would be through the roof.

Since neither of these categories can be considered income, why do they need to know?

The law isn't created with Meghan Markle marrying Prince Harry in mind. And KP does have rented out apartments, so they could do an appraisal. A lot of the disclosure laws are designed to prevent tax evasion and money laundering. I don't think they took into account that historic jewels from the vault of the BRF might be loaned to a US citizen. One potential way to get around the jewels is the fact that it's not being loaned for her benefit, but rather as part of an unpaid job they are asking her to do. BTW, even some of these experts wouldn't be able to say for sure what kind of treatment is acceptable to IRS since there isn't a known precedent. The lawyers would likely apply for a private letter ruling for any position they take to be safe prior to actually filing the returns or disclosure forms.