Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[texankitcat]

That’s true but it’s more about the royal family. It seems like anyone who marries into a royal family converts regardless of personal conviction. I think that’s where the rub is. To marry into the royal family, she’s getting baptized and confirmed before the wedding. Just like Kate had her confirmation before her wedding.

I think people are missing the fact that the Queen is head of the Church of England and Harry is the grandson of the Queen, son of the next King and brother of a future King who will also be the heads of the Church of England. It would seem that religious conversion by the bride would be a matter of importance.

 

[Juliette2]

I kind of feel the same way even though I am never comfortable discussing the spirituality of someone I do not know.

I just hope she isn't converting just to have the pageantry of a Church wedding, or just because she has to.

And the same goes for Harry and anyone else, by the way. If you are not a believer that's okay...just have some integrity and forego the bells and whistles of a Christian religious wedding. If you are one of the many who claim "I am just spiritual and don't believe in organized religion" then the world is full of New Age gurus who will gladly conduct your wedding. No problem.

Sorry but it's something that I feel extremely strongly about.

It's a serious thing to take vows in a church IMO.

ETA: Autumn Phillips couldn't have been more wrong in her statement about the differences between the Anglican and Catholic Church. The fact that she believes there is no real difference only confirms for me that she was one of the millions of very poorly catechized Catholics in the world.

It's good that she is no longer Catholic imo.

Very eloquently said. Thank you Moonmaiden23. I had forgotten about Autumn Phillips' statements...

I think people are missing the fact that she DOESN'T have to convert to have a religious wedding in church.

Exactly. But the fact that she has decided to convert now, and so quickly makes you doubt the sincerity of her conversion.

Then why aren't people upset with the royal family, but they are upset at her and saying how she's getting a pass? Honestly, the feeling I got from the interview yesterday is that Meghan REALLY wants to embrace her new role, family, and country. It seems to me that she has done her homework on what the royal family does. So I really didn't detect that she's hesitant or being strong armed into anything.

And really, one thing that Meghan has consistently talked about yesterday was what is important to her. His mom being part of it, meeting his family including on his mom's side, understanding the institution and working to support it, and so on. So I would say it's entirely plausible that she wants to do this.

Well, I am upset with the Royal Family, too, in fact! It's all very hypocritical. I think she's getting a pass from the media, not from the Royal Family.

Also, I think she is a very enthusiastic person, energetic, etc. And yes, she is embracing her new role and family but I feel (and again, sorry, it's just my personal opinion) she is rushing through things.

 

[jacqui24]

Exactly. But the fact that she has decided to convert now, and so quickly makes you doubt the sincerity of her conversion.

I believe it was confirmed that she identified as Protestant. How is that different to switch over to Anglican. From what's been explained to me here is that it's basically a different branch, the fundamental beliefs are very similar right? Is she expected to worship in another Protestant church if she wishes to go to church in the future? Are there a lot of other Protestant churches in England? I'd say Autumn's conversion from Roman Catholicism was a bigger change. Or was that not sincere either? Or does it only apply to Meghan?

Well, I am upset with the Royal Family, too, in fact! It's all very hypocritical. I think she's getting a pass from the media, not from the Royal Family.

I'm not certain how she's getting a pass as she isn't the first one to convert that's married into this family, and there weren't huge outcries over this type of thing previously.

 

[Grandma828]

Well, I am upset with the Royal Family, too, in fact! It's all very hypocritical. I think she's getting a pass from the media, not from the Royal Family.

Also, I think she is a very enthusiastic person, energetic, etc. And yes, she is embracing her new role and family but I feel (and again, sorry, it's just my personal opinion) she is rushing through things.

How so? She could of been studying for the whole last year, You don't know.

 

[Frelinghighness]

Meghan was never baptized? That must be a first for a Royal fiancee marrying into a European House. To be married in the CoE one must be both baptized and Confirmed, just like in the Catholic faith since marriage is considered a Sacrament.

Anyway, I am thrilled that it will be a St. George's as I always knew it would. I have a sentimental weak spot for the jewel of a church.

But didn’t Megan go to catholic school for years before college?

 

[Somebody]

Exactly. But the fact that she has decided to convert now, and so quickly makes you doubt the sincerity of her conversion.

Same with Catherine... I do hope they receive(d) good catechism classes so they at least know what they profess to believe. In general, I prefer people to forgo a church wedding if they don't truly believe in the One they are asking to bless their marriage and make their vows before. If people choose to have a church wedding (which I would highly encourage), I hope they do so wholeheartedly and not just because they like that ceremony better or out of tradition.

Regarding Autumn's statement: I personally think that going from non-believing to Anglican is a bigger step than from Catholic to Anglican. The Anglican church also has an Anglo-Catholic movement that is very close to Catholicism... Some clergy, for example, would say there are 7 sacraments while the Anglican church, along with other protestant churches, officially only recognizes 2.

If in this specific case, the issue is that Harry's grandmother is the Head of the Church of England, than maybe that is the root of the problem...

In general, I am all in favor of couples deciding to join one church and not remain members of different churches as that is one of the aspects that are so fundamental that you should (try to) find a common ground. So, someone deciding to join a church because they get married makes sense to me - but in this case it is not just switching denominations but becoming a church member at all (although Meghan of course grew up learning about Christianity in the form of Catholicism at her school).

 

[AdmirerUS]

Exactly. But the fact that she has decided to convert now, and so quickly makes you doubt the sincerity of her conversion.

Is it so quick? Anyone I have seriously dated, I've considered religion from the moment I got serious. For these two, it was after about a month and in Botswana that they decided to lean in. So a month or two short of a year and a half for them. That's a while.

I think if you have discussed having children (they have, we saw it), you have also likely discussed religion, health issues, aging parent care, favorite vacation spots, what you like in a home, Christmas expectations, etc.

If you have seen the engagement interview it is more than a bit obvious that they are well beyond discussing favorite beers and a definition of love (whatever that is).

 

[Juliette2]

I'd say Autumn's conversion from Roman Catholicism was a bigger change. Or was that not sincere either? Or does it only apply to Meghan?

No, of course it doesn't apply only to Miss Markle. Queen Letizia, Princess Charlene of Monaco, etc. they all had a quick crash catechism course in the months leading to their wedding. And yes, I doubt their sincerity, too.

Exactly because the world is so "modern" now, there shouldn't be an issue with people saying: "look we're in love, we'll get married in Church but I am a non practicing believer and I won't convert." What bothers me is exactly this: that they make it seem like it's an item that needs to be crossed off a list of wedding preparations. It's slightly insulting to those believers who have maybe struggled with their faith and/or conversion.

I know I shouldn't presume to know the spiritual beliefs of someone I do not know personally and I may be completely wrong so I will end my comments on the topic here. But I did feel I had the right to express (I hope respectfully) my doubts. They may be a couple in love but I've detected a layer (to use a word Miss Markle seems partial to!) of superficiality (and not just concerning religion) that I personally find discouraging.

 

[jacqui24]

How so? She could of been studying for the whole last year, You don't know.

Exactly. Given how much we've found out today and yesterday about the couple, it's clear that they are so much more prepared for a life together than we anticipated or ever thought. It's time to realize perhaps we shouldn't assume the worst and worry too much.

 

[Juliette2]

it's clear that they are so much more prepared for a life together than we anticipated or ever thought. .

Honestly I'm not so sure. But, time will tell!

 

[Somebody]

But didn’t Megan go to catholic school for years before college?

Yes, but it was most likely known as a good private school where many non-Catholic students attended. So, I am sure she heard many bible stories and most likely went to some services but was never baptized nor confirmed neither in the Catholic church nor in the Episcopal church.

 

[Somebody]

No, of course it doesn't apply only to Miss Markle. Queen Letizia, Princess Charlene of Monaco, etc. they all had a quick crash catechism course in the months leading to their wedding. And yes, I doubt their sincerity, too.

Exactly because the world is so "modern" now, there shouldn't be an issue with people saying: "look we're in love, we'll get married in Church but I am a non practicing believer and I won't convert." What bothers me is exactly this: that they make it seem like it's an item that needs to be crossed off a list of wedding preparations. It's slightly insulting to those believers who have maybe struggled with their faith and/or conversion.

I know I shouldn't presume to know the spiritual beliefs of someone I do not know personally and I may be completely wrong so I will end my comments on the topic here. But I did feel I had the right to express (I hope respectfully) my doubts. They may be a couple in love but I've detected a layer (to use a word Miss Markle seems partial to!) of superficiality (and not just concerning religion) that I personally find discouraging.

I would say the churches that marry them are as much to blame (as I am afraid that your assessment of the superficiality on this aspect is quite accurate); and apparently it isn't a deal breaker for their respective partners, so that is also telling.

Being a member of a certain church doesn't mean that they truly adhere to (at least the core) beliefs of that church nor that they live by that. If I am not mistaken the Anglican Church still teaches the sanctity of marriage and living together before marriage might be common practice but is not according to the church's teaching; Albert having extra-marital children wasn't an objection for him to get married in the Roman Catholic Church.

And would you mind explaining what other superficialities you noticed? It is always good to hear different perspectives.

 

[Lady Nimue]

ETA: Autumn Phillips couldn't have been more wrong in her statement about the differences between the Anglican and Catholic Church. The fact that she believes there is no real difference only confirms for me that she was one of the millions of very poorly catechized Catholics in the world.

It's good that she is no longer Catholic imo.

The two religions are extremely close which is why ecumenically the joining of the two churches is always seen as very likely at some point. There are no real doctrinal differences, except for the papal infallibility issue and that is a recent addition (from 1800's) and can easily be amended (as every good Jesuit knows. ) I agree with Autumn Phillips and I do not consider myself 'one of the millions of very poorly catechized Catholics in the world'. Just saying.

I strongly suspect, given Meghan's actions and words in her life, that she is a Christian. It is unlikely that anything in the Anglican Church is antithetical to the essential Christianity of her upbringing by her parents. 'By their works you shall know them.'

 

[jacqui24]

But didn’t Megan go to catholic school for years before college?

Anyone can go to Catholic school. It's not required that students convert. In most areas with not so great public school systems, that's one of the options.

 

[jacqui24]

I strongly suspect, given Meghan's actions and words in her life, that she is a Christian. It is unlikely that anything in the Anglican Church is antithetical to the essential Christianity of her upbringing by her parents. 'By their works you shall know them.'

Just to add to this, I just remember that one of the charities Meghan was heavily involved with was World Vision. They are a Christian charity and it's part of their organizational identity if you will.

 

[caethi]

Exactly. But the fact that she has decided to convert now, and so quickly makes you doubt the sincerity of her conversion.

We don't know when she decided to convert. We don't know her spiritual path. Even if she has never been baptized, she may have been interested in finding a spiritual home in a Christian church. Perhaps she is showing her commitment to her future husband and marriage by sharing his faith. We have no basis on which to doubt her sincerity.

The two religions are extremely close which is why ecumenically the joining of the two churches is always seen as very likely at some point. There are no real doctrinal differences, except for the papal infallibility issue and that is a recent addition (from 1800's) and can easily be amended (as every good Jesuit knows. ) I agree with Autumn Phillips and I do not consider myself 'one of the millions of very poorly catechized Catholics in the world'. Just saying.

I strongly suspect, given Meghan's actions and words in her life, that she is a Christian. It is unlikely that anything in the Anglican Church is antithetical to the essential Christianity of her upbringing by her parents. 'By their works you shall know them.'

Well said.

 

[Somebody]

I strongly suspect, given Meghan's actions and words in her life, that she is a Christian. It is unlikely that anything in the Anglican Church is antithetical to the essential Christianity of her upbringing by her parents. 'By their works you shall know them.'

As I've never heard her utter a word about Jesus, who is at the core of Christianity, I cannot say that she most likely is a Christian (if she were, she would have been baptized previously, as Jesus quite clearly instructs his followers to get baptized and sharing the gospel is also part of being a Christian). Humanistic seems more applicable, which indeed on many levels is not antithetical but nor is it the same as being a Christian. Her involvement with World Vision as others pointed out indeed shows that she has been fine with representing a Christian organization and they even require that their ambassadors agree with their beliefs to a certain extent. So no, I don't think it is a big step from Meghan's perspective.

World Vision promotes the following core values as part of its faith statement. As a volunteer with World Vision, we would expect you to be comfortable with and adhere to these core values as part of your role in representing World Vision and children we serve.
We are Christian
We are committed
We value people
We are stewards
We are partners
We are responsive

However, we might be getting a little off-topic with this discussion about Meghan's religious background and her plans to convert before she marries Harry.

 

[Alliec76]

Just to jump in a bit on the whole nationality discussion. There seems to be some conflicting reporting, but from what I've read the part that seems clear is that Meghan wishes very much to follow the normal process to attaining her UK citizenship. I believe the press official who spoke from Harry's office even said that it can take a couple of years. Nothing I've read suggests they intend to cut corners or try and "jump the line". Which I think is the right tone to take. The immigration issue is a very hot topic on both sides of the pond.

As such if Meghan will be pursuing a normal pathway to British citizen, she actually has no choice but to retain her US citizenship for the time being. I poked around on the uk immigration site and you are not allowed to be "stateless" or claim no nationality in the UK, unless you're seeking asylum or something. So if Meghan does follow the normal route to British citizenship that's at least 3 years, and in those years she will technically still be an American citizen. Those are just the rules and they are following the rules. Which is also why I think the official said no decision had been made about her US citizenship after she obtains her UK citizenship because it's down the road. If they felt it was important to declare outright that she would give up her US citizenship eventually, they would have. Look, she probably will do so eventually, if for no other reason than the tax issues, but for now it is kind of a moot point. She's an American citizen until further notice. Unless theyes change course and go back on what they said and done fast track her (which I think would provide poor optics) there is no other choice. Anyway, this is just the technicality/legalities of the situation.

 

[Lady Nimue]

As I've never heard her utter a word about Jesus, who is at the core of Christianity, I cannot say that she most likely is a Christian (if she were, she would have been baptized previously, as Jesus quite clearly instructs his followers to get baptized and sharing the gospel is also part of being a Christian).

At the core of Christianity is the Christos, Love. One does not have to utter the name of the teacher/rabbi Jesus. That is materialistic. Physical baptism is merely the indication of the baptism of the spirit. No 'church' governs that (and never has). I feel compelled to say this (even though it will be deleted) because more un-christian (unloving) uncharitable and hurtful behavior (and thinking) is fomented under the guise of 'being christian' (and the worst is the denominational splitting of doctrinal 'hairs') that the essence of 'the message' of love is well and good lost.

One saw Meghan's shining christianity in the way she answered the question regarding racism. Meghan is living christianity every day of her life as she meets the hating around her with loving affirmation and lives to the highest ideals of the spirit in love (Christos). JMO. 'By their works you shall know them.'

 

[Missjersey]

Lovely post Lady Nimue

 

[Anna Catherine]

I think its oversimplifying Christianity to argue that all the various denominations are essentially the same. Christians of all denominations would not agree with that assessment. I agree that it’s hypocritical of every all involved but it’s been going on for centuries and no church has tried to change it. Meghan has decided to join so I’m just going to hope and assume it’s sincere. If her conversion is not, well, that’s between her and God.

 

[Countessmeout]

Converting Is she Jewish, budhist or some other religion I am not aware of

She isn't converting. Converting means she is a member of another faith and is changing churches. She is simply being baptized.

You don't need to be baptized to be Christian. As we know both of her parents are protestant, and it seems that they are different branches. We know her father is Episcopalian. If her parents are non-practicing, or even 'holiday church goers', they may not have seen the need to baptize her. There would have been the question of which church to baptize her in. I grew up in a home with an United mother and Roman Catholic father. My sister and I were only baptized due to pressure from our grandparents (the catholic ones). A priest refused to baptize my sister as my mother was not catholic, and my parents only went on holidays. Fortunately the priest who married them was willing to baptize her (I was baptized in my grandparent's church by their personal priest). My sister and I never had communion, confession, confirmation, any of that. We only went to church when we visited our grandparents. I have become an active church attendee in my adult life and have taken the sacraments as an adult.

We do know that she grew up in Christian homes with holidays like Christmas and easter. We know she knows prayers and Jesus, because she went to Catholic school. Even if you aren't Catholic you can attend the school but you are required to take religious classes and take part in things. So she isn't going blindly into being baptized.

Hopefully she will be spending the next months, when she isn't traveling with Harry, to take courses. As part of baptism and confirmation that is required. It will give her a better understanding of what she is entering. At least she has a leg up, not like converting from a non Christian religion. And if she attended Episcopalian church at all with dad, even on holidays, she will have some sense as the Episcopal church is the American branch of the Anglican church.

 

[Osipi]

Y'know, in all this discussion, its occurred to me that perhaps the only thing of importance when it comes to the baptism, confirmation and whatever is the One that just is happy that Meghan is a child of His and their relationship, however that may be, is what truly matters and is personal.

 

[Anna Catherine]

Converting Is she Jewish, budhist or some other religion I am not aware of

She isn't converting. Converting means she is a member of another faith and is changing churches. She is simply being baptized.

You don't need to be baptized to be Christian.

That’s not necessarily accurate and highly dependent on who you’re talking to and their personal beliefs. The most of the various churches and denominations do not hold those opinions. I don’t want the thread to veer off anymore than it has and get into religious discussions.

 

[Countessmeout]

That’s not necessarily accurate and highly dependent on who you’re talking to and their personal beliefs. The most of the various churches and denominations do not hold those opinions. I don’t want the thread to veer off anymore than it has and get into religious discussions.

I have attended services in Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, United and Alliance churches. Never once was I asked for my baptism card, or if I was even a member of their church. Yes, they encourage baptism, an official welcome into the church. In the Catholic church you are required to be baptized and go through the sacraments to say take communion, but not to attend. But perhaps you have come across some very close minded branches who only welcome baptized people. Happy I haven't had that experience in churches.

I don't recall anything in the bible where Jesus said, 'you have to be baptized to eat with me, believe in me, or hear me speak'. Yes he encouraged it, but didn't require it.

The definition of being Christian is a belief in Christ. To judge Meghan as being not a good enough Christian, is pretty un-christianly. We have no idea how deep her beliefs are. What we do know is she has CHOSEN to be baptized end enter into the faith of her husband's family. It isn't required, as long as her kids are raised in the COE they will be in line.

 

[Anna Catherine]

I have attended services in Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, United and Alliance churches. Never once was I asked for my baptism card, or if I was even a member of their church. Yes, they encourage baptism, an official welcome into the church. In the Catholic church you are required to be baptized and go through the sacraments to say take communion, but not to attend. But perhaps you have come across some very close minded branches who only welcome baptized people. Happy I haven't had that experience in churches.

I don't recall anything in the bible where Jesus said, 'you have to be baptized to eat with me, believe in me, or hear me speak'. Yes he encouraged it, but didn't require it.

The definition of being Christian is a belief in Christ. To judge Meghan as being not a good enough Christian, is pretty un-christianly. We have no idea how deep her beliefs are. What we do know is she has CHOSEN to be baptized end enter into the faith of her husband's family. It isn't required, as long as her kids are raised in the COE they will be in line.

Where did I say anything about a ‘baptism card’?! Really? Of course, you can attend services but joining a church is different. I’m not judging anyone. I was stating a fact about various denominations. If that’s what you got out of my posts, you having been really reading them. Anyway, this thread isn’t about Christianity or Christian belief or religion. I think we should move on.

 

[rmay286]

At the core of Christianity is the Christos, Love. One does not have to utter the name of the teacher/rabbi Jesus. That is materialistic. Physical baptism is merely the indication of the baptism of the spirit. No 'church' governs that (and never has).

I work for a Christian organization that has about 40 evangelical Christian denominations affiliated with it, along with more than 60 Christian organizations, including World Vision Canada. I'm not aware that any of those denominations or organizations would describe Christianity this way, and I'd be very surprised if any of them did. To be a Christian means to be a follower of Jesus Christ, who commanded his followers to baptize those in all nations. So yes, baptism, and the name of Jesus, are fundamental to Christianity.

(Mainline Christian denominations such as Anglican or the United Church, Methodist, etc. may have a different way of articulating Christianity...I'm not so familiar with what they believe.)

 

[Countessmeout]

Where did I say anything about a ‘baptism card’?! Really? Of course, you can attend services but joining a church is different. I’m not judging anyone. I was stating a fact about various denominations. If that’s what you got out of my posts, you having been really reading them. Anyway, this thread isn’t about Christianity or Christian belief or religion. I think we should move on.

We are discussing Meghan and if she is a Christian or not. I have read a number of posts calling her a hypocrite.

My point was you can be a Christian without being baptized. You can attend church, believe in Jesus, celebrate the Christian holidays without baptism. Yes to 'officially join a church' you would be baptized. Baptism is official entrance.

Just because Meghan is not baptized doesn't make her I don't know what people are accusing her of....pagan?atheist?agnostic?.

Simple point her Choosing to officially join the Church of England is not hypocritical, shallow or empty as posters have suggested. Or we don't know, as we have no idea Meghan's intentions in this.

I work for a Christian organization that has about 40 evangelical Christian denominations affiliated with it, along with more than 60 Christian organizations, including World Vision Canada. I'm not aware that any of those denominations or organizations would describe Christianity this way, and I'd be very surprised if any of them did. To be a Christian means to be a follower of Jesus Christ, who commanded his followers to baptize those in all nations. So yes, baptism, and the name of Jesus, are fundamental to Christianity.

That may be the issue. Evangelical. Evangelicals and their call to 'prosteltize and convert' people.

The Anglican, Catholic and other non-evangelical churches approach religion with a different approach. Meghan is joining the COE (Anglican), which has a different outlook on things.

 

[Anna Catherine]

We are discussing Meghan and if she is a Christian or not. I have read a number of posts calling her a hypocrite.

My point was you can be a Christian without being baptized. You can attend church, believe in Jesus, celebrate the Christian holidays without baptism. Yes to 'officially join a church' you would be baptized. Baptism is official entrance.

Just because Meghan is not baptized doesn't make her I don't know what people are accusing her of....pagan?atheist?agnostic?.

Simple point her Choosing to officially join the Church of England is not hypocritical, shallow or empty as posters have suggested. Or we don't know, as we have no idea Meghan's intentions in this.



That may be the issue. Evangelical. Evangelicals and their call to 'prosteltize and convert' people.

The Anglican, Catholic and other non-evangelical churches approach religion with a different approach. Meghan is joining the COE (Anglican), which has a different outlook on things.

The discussion is about Meghan being baptized and confirmed into the Church of England and various posters’ reactions to that decision. It has never been about whether Meghan is a Christian or not.

Evangelicals are a wide ranging group. The beliefs mentioned by the previous poster are held by the denominations you mentioned hence Meghan’s baptism and confirmation. It’s lovely that she desires to join the Church of England and is going through the sacraments.

 

[Countessmeout]

Actually a number of posters have suggested she needs to 'convert to christianity'. That would suggest she wasn't Christian.

Anglicans are not evangelical (there is a small branch of evangelical Anglicans). The whole focus on 'being born again' and conversion is not a guiding point to Anglicans and similar churches.