Costs, Income, Fortune and Expenditures of the Danish Royal Family

[Duke of Marmalade]

Thanks Muhler. I guess they pay for a lot more than other RF's hence get more money. Seems that in Denmark the situation is not as bad as in other countries where the amount is much less but 'hidden costs' are paid by the government.

 

[Muhler]

You are welcome.

Yes, you are probably right.

Apart from this, the expences by the DRF are public to a certain extent. I believe there are a number of posts in this thread dissecting that.

Of course the DRF, just like other royals, get favourable discounts in various forms and I can imagine that they rarely have to pay for admittance to anything but that's really peanuts viewed in the big picture.

Example: Mary wear a dress worth say 15.000 DKK in stores, to an official event of some sort. Okay, because businesses will be more than delighted to see Mary wear their products she can probably get a favorable discount. So let's say she pays 12.000 DKK. Vat is refundable, that's minus 25 %, so Mary ends up paying 9.000 DKK for the dress. - Thus Mary doesn't have to get such a dress for free and thereby end up being in some kind of debt.
I mention that because it is often suggested that Mary (and other royals) get their clothes almost habitually for free. It may indeed happen from time to time but I think that is the exception rather than the rule.

The main expences in the DRF go to simply running the whole show.

 

[Muhler]

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #39, 2013.

Where a Sandra Henriksen would like to know whether the DRF are allowed to own shares.

Jon Bloch Skipper replies that they sure are.

According to the accounts published in 2012 QMII have invested 12 million DKK of the allocated funds to the DRF in shares and other investments. The details are however confidential.

Apart from that a part of her private fortune is presumably also invested in shares.

 

[nwinther]

Example: Mary wear a dress worth say 15.000 DKK in stores, to an official event of some sort. Okay, because businesses will be more than delighted to see Mary wear their products she can probably get a favorable discount. So let's say she pays 12.000 DKK. Vat is refundable, that's minus 25 %, so Mary ends up paying 9.000 DKK for the dress. - Thus Mary doesn't have to get such a dress for free and thereby end up being in some kind of debt.
I mention that because it is often suggested that Mary (and other royals) get their clothes almost habitually for free. It may indeed happen from time to time but I think that is the exception rather than the rule.

Technically, it's minus 20% - but hey.

Besides - no matter what discount Mary et. al. recieves, it doens't matter on the budget. If they get a million they spend (or save) a million, no matter what the dress cost.

But you are right - when someone (republican Ekstra Bladet) "adds up" what Mary's outfit "costs", it isn't necessarily a reflection on what Mary paid for the outfit. Some things may (very likely) have come as gifts, others at discounts and some jewelry is loaned, so while Mary may be wearing a 50.000 dollar necklace, it doesn't mean that Danish taxpayers "wasted" 50K on a necklace.

 

[Muhler]

The expences for the DRF in 2013 have been published. Årsregnskab for Den Kongelige Civilliste - Årsrapport · kongehusets virksomhed 2013

Se hvad Kongehuset brugte penge på i 2013 - Danmark | www.bt.dk
Of more interest to us perhaps are the comments from the manger who oversee the DRF's economy, Søren Kruse.
He has a few comments to some of the posts:

Telephone and mail amounted to 1.865.934 DKK in 2013. Opposed to 723.000 DKK in 2012. That's not because the phonebill has gone up some 800.000 but because the DRF has bought a new phone system.

Ordenskapitlet = the Chapter of Orders = the office that deal with presenting orders and approving applicants.
The expences for 2013 amounted to 1.533.295. As opposed to 788.000 in 2012. That's simply because the DRF have order a bulk delivery of medals, orders and what not. That's cheaper.

Representation in 2013 amounted to 3.375.495 as oppossed to 7.536.000 DKK in 2012. - That's because QMII had her 40th anniversary in 2012 and because there was a Chinese statevisit with a short notice, so guests had to be billeted in hotels, rather than at the palaces.

- Apart from that I notice M&F recieved some 300.000 more last year than in 2012. And that PH recieved some 100.000 DKK more than in 2012.

 

[Tarlita]

Whatever it costs the DRF are worth it. This family are great representatives for their country and they work hard for it. Without them you just have politicians and the usual scandals associated with pollies. In my country we have very little respect for our pollies. But we turn out in great numbers just for a glimpse of Mary & Fred and many follow their lives via forums like this.

 

[kbk]

The expences for the DRF in 2013 have been published. Årsregnskab for Den Kongelige Civilliste - Årsrapport · kongehusets virksomhed 2013

Se hvad Kongehuset brugte penge på i 2013 - Danmark | www.bt.dk
Of more interest to us perhaps are the comments from the manger who oversee the DRF's economy, Søren Kruse.
He has a few comments to some of the posts:

Telephone and mail amounted to 1.865.934 DKK in 2013. Opposed to 723.000 DKK in 2012. That's not because the phonebill has gone up some 800.000 but because the DRF has bought a new phone system.

Ordenskapitlet = the Chapter of Orders = the office that deal with presenting orders and approving applicants.
The expences for 2013 amounted to 1.533.295. As opposed to 788.000 in 2012. That's simply because the DRF have order a bulk delivery of medals, orders and what not. That's cheaper.

Representation in 2013 amounted to 3.375.495 as oppossed to 7.536.000 DKK in 2012. - That's because QMII had her 40th anniversary in 2012 and because there was a Chinese statevisit with a short notice, so guests had to be billeted in hotels, rather than at the palaces.

- Apart from that I notice M&F recieved some 300.000 more last year than in 2012. And that PH recieved some 100.000 DKK more than in 2012.

What about Count Ingolf and Princess Elisabeth's funds?

 

[Muhler]

They are not mentioned on the list.

Here is an article from the very reliable business.dk Modemilliardær køber prins Joachim ud af fransk forretning - Fødevarer | www.business.dk

As you may recall Joachim was a co-investor in a farm in France a few years back. In fact there were three co-investors, Joachim, Bendt Wedell and the billionaire Troels Holck Povlsen.
The purpose of the purchase was to grew red rice. Unfortunately there wasn't a market for that product in DK, so Troels Holck Povlsen has bought out his two partners and is now the sole owner of the farm which is worth 125 million DKK.
He will now continue running the French farm, presumably with a different crop that's too ordinary to be labbelled under the brand "The Five Farms", of which Schackenborg is one of them.

Dry stuff, I know. But I mention it just in case someone should come up with a sensational story about Joachim's farm going bankrupt.
Had that been the case business.dk, Jyllands Posten and Landbrugsavisen would have written about it. These are the most reliable sources in regards to the economy of Schackenborg or businesses by Joachim.

 

[maria-olivia]

Thanks Muhler for your advice about an eventual bankrupt of Prince Joachim businesses.

 

[kbk]

They are not mentioned on the list.

I know they're not mentioned, that's why I am asking you about this... What about their allowances? Do they receive funds from the government? Or maybe from the Queen's private purse? Do their costs are covered in any part by the Royal Court?

 

[Muhler]

Yeah okay, I expressed myself clumsily.

Count Ingolf does get an apanage, as a compensation for him not being king, which he would have been today had the Law of Succession not been changed in 1953.
Princess Elisabeth is not an active member of the DRF and without being absolutely sure I believe she as such does not receive an apanage.

Count Ingolf is no longer royal, nor is Countess Alexandra and that's why they are not mentioned in the DRF budget.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Apparently Count Ingolf is not mentioned in the Royal Budget. Where is his apanage enlisted then?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The expences for the DRF in 2013 have been published. Årsregnskab for Den Kongelige Civilliste - Årsrapport · kongehusets virksomhed 2013

Se hvad Kongehuset brugte penge på i 2013 - Danmark | www.bt.dk
Of more interest to us perhaps are the comments from the manger who oversee the DRF's economy, Søren Kruse.
He has a few comments to some of the posts:

Telephone and mail amounted to 1.865.934 DKK in 2013. Opposed to 723.000 DKK in 2012. That's not because the phonebill has gone up some 800.000 but because the DRF has bought a new phone system.

Ordenskapitlet = the Chapter of Orders = the office that deal with presenting orders and approving applicants.
The expences for 2013 amounted to 1.533.295. As opposed to 788.000 in 2012. That's simply because the DRF have order a bulk delivery of medals, orders and what not. That's cheaper.

Representation in 2013 amounted to 3.375.495 as oppossed to 7.536.000 DKK in 2012. - That's because QMII had her 40th anniversary in 2012 and because there was a Chinese statevisit with a short notice, so guests had to be billeted in hotels, rather than at the palaces.

- Apart from that I notice M&F recieved some 300.000 more last year than in 2012. And that PH recieved some 100.000 DKK more than in 2012.

It is interesting to see the differences. In Denmark the Ordenskapitlet is apparently part of the Royal Budget. In the Netherlands, the so-called Kanselarij der Nederlandse Orden (Chancellery of the Netherlands Orders) is an independent institution. In the Dutch State Budget it is placed between organisations as the Council of State, the Auditory Chamber, the National Ombudsman, the Cabinet of the Governor of Curaçao, etc.

One of the reasons for this: for an example, medals for military service, for police service, etc. also come from this Chancellery and have nothing to do with the workings of the monarchy (apart from the King signing the Royal Decree). This shows how tricky it is to compare royal budgets because every monarchy has a total different systematic.

 

[Muhler]

Apparently Count Ingolf is not mentioned in the Royal Budget. Where is his apanage enlisted then?

That must be Civillisten. However, Count Ingolf's apanage was determined by special law when he was eighteen I think.

It is interesting to see the differences. In Denmark the Ordenskapitlet is apparently part of the Royal Budget. In the Netherlands, the so-called Kanselarij der Nederlandse Orden (Chancellery of the Netherlands Orders) is an independent institution. In the Dutch State Budget it is placed between organisations as the Council of State, the Auditory Chamber, the National Ombudsman, the Cabinet of the Governor of Curaçao, etc.

One of the reasons for this: for an example, medals for military service, for police service, etc. also come from this Chancellery and have nothing to do with the workings of the monarchy (apart from the King signing the Royal Decree). This shows how tricky it is to compare royal budgets because every monarchy has a total different systematic.

Correct, because Ordenskapitlet in DK is the administrative organisation which keep track of orders and list people for final approval, depending on the orders.
People usually submit a name for a person whom they believe should recieve an order to the relevant ministry. (Say Ministry for Commerce). The ministy have a look and if approved put the name on a list which go to QMII. In fact to Ordenskapitlet first. If Ordenskapitlet approve, and when it's recommended from a ministry they almost invaribly do, the list is put before QMII for final approval.
IIRC the executive in Ordenskapitlet is Joachim.

As for the grander orders, Dannebrog and the Order of the Elephant, it's Monarch who is the grandmaster of the order and as such it's formally QMII who has the final word.
So in contrast to the Netherlands, as I understand you, the DRF has a lot more formal control over the orders.
QMII could in theory go out into the streets and select random people to recieve an order, if she wished to.

 

[kbk]

Can you point any official report about the money Count Ingold receives from the Danish state? What about Princess Elisabeth!? I've found this Statsministeriet - Lov om ændring af lov om dronning Margrethe den Andens civilliste and some other resources on Ingolf's annuities but absolutely NOTHING on his sister. If I'm not mistaken, this is an Act of Parliament on "Queen Margrethe II's Civil List", a 2001 multi-amendment of the original 1972 act and other acts on annuities for members of the Royal Family. This act changes the allowances of the Queen, the Crown Prince, Prince Joachim, and Count Ingolf, who receives money from the state under the act on annuities to "members of the Royal House"*. He is thus considered by the state as a member of the Royal House and the annuities of the Queen, the Crown Prince and Prince Joachim are stipulated in separate acts of law. According to the 2001 amendment, Count Ingolf receives 1,075,000 DKK annually**. The act names Queen's money as "civil list" and all others' as "annuities".

* the said amendment also repeals the act from 1972 on annuities for the then-recently deceased Queen Ingrid.
** this is Statsministeriet - Lov om årpenge til medlemmer af det kongelige hus the act on annuities to "members of the Royal House", i.e. Hereditary Prince Knud and Count Ingolf.

I have a few questions:
1. Is Count Ingolf not exempted from income tax like the senior royals?
2. Why there is also a restriction that "As long as Count Ingolf receives annuities, he can not enjoy the special allowance for public service"? What does it mean? That he can't work for the state? Can the Crown Prince and his brother receive this special allowance (what the hell is this?)?
3. Where are the annuities of Princess Benedikte and Countess Alexandra, who I think should be included in the "members of the RH" act with Count Ingolf...? Did Princess Benedikte receive any public funds before Queen Ingrid's death? I;ve read that after her mother's death, Benedikte took up many of her public duties.
4. Why Princess Elisabeth is not mentioned in any of these acts of law? I understand that she worked for a long time for the government and probably receives a pension as a retiree but was she ever entitled to the public annuities as her brother is? Or maybe she was in the past included in some of the acts on annuities of members of the RF, as she remains a full one? I mean, was she an "active member" of the RF anytime? Is she really left alone with a government pension only?
5. What about Count Christian before his marriage and after that?
6. What about other past members of the RH, such as Prince Axel, who was definitely a full working royal but not in the line of succession since 1953. Was he included? What about the Averprinsesse Caroline-Mathilde, who died in 1995 and was the widow of Hereditary Prince Knud, who was entitled to the annuities?

An interesting thing I've found is a 2004 draft of an another amendment, discussed in the Parliament, on applying "economic equality" policy to the Civil List and annuities for the RF and RH acts, granting half of the money to the original recipients' spouses, like Prince Henrik, then-Princess Alexandra and Countess Sussie. https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/R0710.aspx?id=97175

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

3. Where are the annuities of Princess Benedikte and Countess Alexandra, who I think should be included in the "members of the RH" act with Count Ingolf...?

The case of Count Ingolf is not comparable with that of Princess Benedikte or Countess Alexandra. When the succession was not changed in 1953, Count Ingolf would have been King of Denmark now.

The financial settlement for Hereditary Prince Knud and his eldest son Prince Ingold was a compensation for their loss in the place of succession. The State of Denmark promised an annual dotation to Prince Knud and Prince Ingolf, irrespective their position in the Royal House or the royal family. It were settlements at personam. Prince Ingolf's siblings did/do not receive any money from the State.

 

[Muhler]

Most of your questions, kbk, will be answered with a I don't know by me. Then I haven't done much checking. - However, I'm geuinely impressed at what you have dug up so far.

As Duc_et_Pair says, Prince Knud and Count Ingolf get their apanage as a compensation.

Your question #2: - That means he can't get a public pension or a similar public income.
#4: Elisabeth opted to remain unmarried and thus still a royal, but at the same time she chose not to have any public functions but instead pursue a career within public service. So she got no apanage and thus her income is the pension other former state-employees in her position gets.
Whether she has a fortune or investments is another matter.

I seriously suggest you write Jon Bloch Skipper, as a royal expert he should be able to answer your questions.
You can write him here in English: jon@billed-bladet.dk
Just make sure you state that you don't mind the reply being in Danish. If the answer is published you'll get his answers here. - Or perhaps, if yu are lucky, he'll answer your questions privately.

 

[Muhler]

Her er Joachims fede skatterabat - Royale | www.bt.dk

Joachim is going to face some heat in the coming days. As a mamber of the DRF he is exempt from taxation and vat, also in connection with his new home.
That's a very decent amount of money each year.

The DRF are excempt from taxation, because the Monarch formally speaking is the state, and the state doesn't demand taxes from itself.

As long as the primary income for members of the DRF is their apanage such an excemption is fine by my. Paying taxes would just mean that the apanage would need to be incresed proportionally, because the main purpose of the apanage is to pay the expences for running the court. - Including a salary for the management (the DRF).

However, when it's income based on business transactions, like the sale of a manor, then I believe it's only fair that DRF members also pay taxes.

 

[Muhler]

Prins Joachim og prinsesse Maries nye sted: Så meget koster det at holde villaen - Nyheder | www.bt.dk

BT has had a closer look at the expences of maintaining J&M's new house.

Taxation of property/property tax, which the DRF also pay of private property amounts to 66.508 DKK a year.

Electricity, estimated at 25.000-30.000 DKK a year.

Heating 65.000-75.000 DKK a year.

Water, estimated at around 25.000 DKK a year.

Maintenaince of the house estimated at 75.000-100.000 DKK a year.

A gartner to help in the garden, some 36.000 DKK a year.

Total expences a year estimated at 290.000-332.000 DKK.

If you think you can handle the shock you can convert at:
5.5 DKK = 1 Dollar.
7.5 DKK = 1 Euro.
9 DKK = 1 Pound.

Joachim's surplus, when everything has been paid, from the sale of Schackenborg estimater at around 58 million DKK.
He still owns property in Southern Jutland at an estimated value of aroun 77 million DKK.
On top of that he recieves an annual apanage at 3.4 million DKK.

 

[polyesco]

wow. I hope he doesn't burn through his money quickly.
is he expected to sell his remaining property or will he be making some income off it every year.

 

[Muhler]

wow. I hope he doesn't burn through his money quickly.
is he expected to sell his remaining property or will he be making some income off it every year.

Good question.

- I don't think Joachim need worry about the price for maintenaince. The house is newly renovated so larger investments will be many years away.
He apanage alone can easily cover the annual expences.

The property in Southern Jutland is a nice piggy-bank for the children as inheritance.

 

[Muhler]

I think this is the best place to put this, because there will be more on this story: Dokument afslører Margrethes hemmelighed: Bad om millioner til Alexandra - Royale | www.bt.dk

BT has a feature today where it is revealed that the DRF, the day before the separation between Joachim and Alexandra was announced, send a letter marked confidential (*) to the Prime Minister's office.
In that letter QMII requested that the Parliament approved a yearly apanage for Alexandra.
The then PM, Anders Fogh, publicly suggested the apanage, but that was on the request of QMII. (**)

Alexandra got a good deal of money from Joachim (read the DRF) after the divorce as you know but the apanage is paid for by the taxpayers and at that time Nikolai might have become the next crown prince had M&F not been able to have children.

The court acknowledge the letter but have no further comments.
It's Trine Villemann who for once did her job as a journalist and requested and was granted access to the public records where the letter was.

- This is interesting, because it means that the politicians are now, shall we say, more free to cut down or remove the apanage for Alexandra. Or more likely quietly "suggest" she "voluntarily" give it up certainly when Felix turns eighteen.
Because as it is now, there has in recent years been an increasing debate as to why Alexandra must have an apanage, considering that she is obviously financially secure, especially as she has a very limited role now as a public figure and patron. - And also because Nikolai and Felix' father is very financially secure and can ensure the boys won't starve or suffer any want.
It annoys many that Alexandra, on paper at least, gets more money than Mary (she gets 10 % of Frederik's apanage) who is working hard and also our Marie (who has to ask her husband for money. I.e. they have no official deal in regards to the apanage Joachim gets), who is also working.

(*) All letters regarding requests from the DRF must presumably be confidential.

(**) It's no secret that if and when the DRF request more money for whatever reason, it is usually granted. I can't remember what senior politician said that though. On the other hand if the Parliament wish for the DRF to save money it is usually respected.

 

[Stefan]

Interesting. But i think Parliament could and should have limited the Apanage until a possible remarriage of Alexandra. Or to the point Felix turns 18.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It ballfes me that an egalitarian society as Danmark allows it that spouses have part of the husband's apanage. The Dutch do it better: already since WWII (and formally vested in law in 1972) is regulated that the King, the future King, the abdicated King and their spouses get an apanage from the State. (Then) Princess Máxima and now Queen Máxima has an own independent income which is set by law and fixed to the general pay rise of civil servants. An example the Danes should follow, in my humble opinion.

I am no Danish taxpayer but it is indeed astonishing that the common Dane in the street has to fund the life of Mrs Jacob Jørgensen indeed. Note that in the Dutch situation even the equivalent of Prince Joachim (Prince Consantijn) does not get any cent from the State, let alone a former wife...

 

[royal rob]

That does seem unfair and it should have stopped when she remarried. Surely it won't go on forever !!


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

 

[Stefan]

I am no Danish taxpayer but it is indeed astonishing that the common Dane in the street has to fund the life of Mrs Jacob Jørgensen indeed. Note that in the Dutch situation even the equivalent of Prince Joachim (Prince Consantijn) does not get any cent from the State, let alone a former wife...

What is unfair in the dutch example is that Princess Margriet who is a hardowrking member of the RF for many years has never got any cent from the State.

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

What is unfair in the dutch example is that Princess Margriet who is a hardowrking member of the RF for many years has never got any cent from the State.

I agree, she has never received anything from the state.

 

[Muhler]

It ballfes me that an egalitarian society as Danmark allows it that spouses have part of the husband's apanage. The Dutch do it better: already since WWII (and formally vested in law in 1972) is regulated that the King, the future King, the abdicated King and their spouses get an apanage from the State. (Then) Princess Máxima and now Queen Máxima has an own independent income which is set by law and fixed to the general pay rise of civil servants. An example the Danes should follow, in my humble opinion.

I am no Danish taxpayer but it is indeed astonishing that the common Dane in the street has to fund the life of Mrs Jacob Jørgensen indeed. Note that in the Dutch situation even the equivalent of Prince Joachim (Prince Consantijn) does not get any cent from the State, let alone a former wife...

I think it's pretty clear, also to Joachim, that he will be the last of his line to receive an apanage. When his children do some official work for the DRF it will probably be in the form of an expense account. A bit like Benedikte. Even though it's called an apanage, it is really an expense account, because it sure isn't enough for her to live a comfortable life when all the salaries and bills are paid. I.e. secretary and LiW.
As for Joachim and his apanage. I think he should keep it. He may be financially secure now, but he has worked hard both for the DRF as well as looking after his estate and as he intends to work even more for the DRF in the future he deserves his apanage. And apart from that it's good to have an experienced adult to back M&F up. - Also, we have to keep in mind that we are only a plane crash away from Joachim becoming Rigsforstander for Christian.
In short: Joachim's apanage is peanuts. - Not least in comparison to the greed displayed by other top civil servants.

As for Alexandra. I believe we are getting to the end of the line for her apanage. I don't believe the politicians will take it away from her, if she refuse to "volunteer" to drop her apanage but she will get some bad press in that case.
Alexandra got a very fair deal, she has had a good, comfortable and secure life. So there will be few to defend her and even less to defend her after Felix turns eighteen.
Again, the amount she receives is peanuts but it matters symbolically. That is: You don't have to take something, just because you are entitled to it.

But I think we should also be careful about tampering too much with the apanage of the DRF. So far the apanage defines the working members of the DRF. Remove or decrease it and Joachim could justifiably say: I ain't working no more!
In other words: Don't fix a system that works.

As for spouses. Well, as you may recall it was after PH got a fit that he got a separate percentage of QMII's apanage, which is fair enough.
That's also why Mary gets her 10 % from Frederik's apanage.
I don't know why our Marie doesn't have a similar arrangement. The difference is probably the same anyway. Perhaps Joachim has ensured that a percentage of his apanage is automatically transferred to Marie's personal account? That's what I would do in his case.

We have discussed it before. De facto an apanage is to cover the running of the company called the DRF, including salaries for the staff and "management". In my estimation that "salary" isn't more than if the DRF didn't have their own investments they would only live a very comfortable life but not a luxurious life.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What is unfair in the dutch example is that Princess Margriet who is a hardowrking member of the RF for many years has never got any cent from the State.

But it is Princess Margriet's very own personal choice not to pursue an own career. All three sisters of Queen Beatrix knew that they would never get any cent from the Dutch taxpayer. All three of them are multi-millionaires anyway and in the lucky circumstances to make their very own choices.

 

[Lee-Z]

But it is Princess Margriet's very own personal choice not to pursue an own career. All three sisters of Queen Beatrix knew that they would never get any cent from the Dutch taxpayer. All three of them are multi-millionaires anyway and in the lucky circumstances to make their very own choices.

afaik, in the NL P.Margriet does get her expenses paid when she represents, so it's not like she does everything pro-bono.
Don't get me wrong, i think it's quite fair that she does, but if you use the dutch situation as a comparison to the danish one, i think in the end there's not that different: she gets her expenses paid even if it's called differently.