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  #5081  
Old 07-16-2020, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

In that case, would you agree that it is also incorrect to say "Queen Letizia is the Queen of Spain"?

To be fair, she is only called "Queen Letiza of Spain" or "the Queen of Spain" outside Spain properly. In Spain, she is just "the Queen" or "the Queen Doña Letizia".


I suppose "of Spain" or "of the Netherlands" when used for Letizia and Maxima overseas should not be interpreted as part of their titles, but rather as determiners (technically adjuncts) that are used in English and many other European languages to clarify who the person you are referring to is. Most people in the US for example probably have never heard of Letizia or Maxima, so, if they were cited simply as Queen Letizia or Queen Maxima in a fashion magazine or the Daily Mail, readers wouldn't know which country they are from.


But, in any case, yes, it is technically wrong to call her "Queen of Spain". In Camilla's case, I think it is not wrong, but inappropriate to call her the Princess of Wales as a decision has been made that she would not use that title and the decision was official (as official IMHO as the decision that James and Louise would not be prince/princess).
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  #5082  
Old 07-16-2020, 08:12 AM
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I more or less agree with what you have written. The central point I was trying to make was that what a royal "is" legally may differ from what she "is" called. Letizia is not legally the Queen of Spain, but is sometimes referred to as such. Camilla is legally the Princess of Wales, but is not referred to as such.

A second point which I suppose I was indirectly making was that different standards of "correct information" seem to be used for British royals compared with non-British royals. For another example, those who use "Princess Catherine" or "Princess Meghan" are often subjected to condemnation from royal watchers, but Wikipedia, bloggers, and so forth use "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium", which is every bit as wrong, without any complaints whatsoever. (The Belgian court decided that "Princess Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein" was acceptable, but not "Princess Elisabetta of Belgium".)
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  #5083  
Old 07-16-2020, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post

In Camilla's case, I think it is not wrong, but inappropriate to call her the Princess of Wales as a decision has been made that she would not use that title and the decision was official (as official IMHO as the decision that James and Louise would not be prince/princess).
Except the PM announced in parliament that Camilla would be the Princess of Wales and just not use that title.

She also uses Countess of Chester - a title Charles gained at the exact same time as he gained Prince of Wales. The Chester title goes with the Wales one. She can't be Countess of Chester and not also be Princess of Wales.

They announced, at the engagement that she wouldn't use Princess of Wales - not that she wouldn't be Princess of Wales ... a different thing.
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  #5084  
Old 07-16-2020, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Except the PM announced in parliament that Camilla would be the Princess of Wales and just not use that title.

She also uses Countess of Chester - a title Charles gained at the exact same time as he gained Prince of Wales. The Chester title goes with the Wales one. She can't be Countess of Chester and not also be Princess of Wales.

They announced, at the engagement that she wouldn't use Princess of Wales - not that she wouldn't be Princess of Wales ... a different thing.

Which is why I said it was not wrong , just inappropriate.
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  #5085  
Old 07-17-2020, 12:30 PM
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Is Princess Beatrice now a countess?
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  #5086  
Old 07-17-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
Is Princess Beatrice now a countess?

Not in the U.K.
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  #5087  
Old 07-17-2020, 12:56 PM
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Nor technically in Italy since they abolished it in 1946. Edo doesn't use a courtesy title socially or for business, preferring to use Mr Mapelli Mozzi so she might use HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs Mapelli Mozzi as her sister does.
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  #5088  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Nor technically in Italy since they abolished it in 1946. Edo doesn't use a courtesy title socially or for business, preferring to use Mr Mapelli Mozzi
Indeed! Quite a few of the royalty experts who have been quoted saying that the title is not legally recognized in the UK appear to have forgotten that it is not legally recognized in Italy, either (and that Edo himself has never used it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
so she might use HRH Princess Beatrice, Mrs Mapelli Mozzi as her sister does.
Princess Eugenie herself has never used HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank (preferring to continue with "of York"), but Buckingham Palace uses it for her.
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  #5089  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Indeed! Quite a few of the royalty experts who have been quoted saying that the title is not recognized in the UK appear to have forgotten that it is not recognized in Italy, either (and that Edo himself has never used it).
That is true but couldn't it still be applied by courtesy, in the same way that we see members of defunct royal and noble families such as the Greeks, Italians and etc. use theirs?
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  #5090  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyalHighness 2002 View Post
That is true but couldn't it still be applied by courtesy, in the same way that we see members of defunct royal and noble families such as the Greeks, Italians and etc. use theirs?
Yes, it could (I've edited my post to make clearer that I was referring to legal recognition). If Edo himself used a title, in spite of it having no legal status, I expect Buckingham Palace would use it as well, as they have done for other members of defunct royal and noble families. But it would not appear in his official documents, such as his passport.
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  #5091  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
Is Princess Beatrice now a countess?
The short answer is no.
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  #5092  
Old 07-17-2020, 01:51 PM
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They didn't call his father "Count" on the official engagement announcement either, just Mr. Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi.

However, he used Count in the official announcement of his daughter's engagement in The Telegraph in 2012:

Quote:
The engagement is announced between Tod, son of Mr and Mrs Michael Yeomans, of Winchester, Hampshire, and Natalia, stepdaughter of the late Mr Christopher Shale and daughter of Mrs Christopher Shale, of Over Worton, Oxfordshire, and Count Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi, of La Garde Freinet, France.
So either he stopped using it or BP decided "Mr" would be more appropriate, although they usually use courtesy titles. Either way, Bea is unlikely to use "Countess".
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  #5093  
Old 07-17-2020, 02:01 PM
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The style of Mr Mappelli-Mozzi is in accordance with UK law while the style of Count Mappelli-Mozzi isn't. It's as simple as that. It's the same as how William Parente, the owner of Wellbeck Abbey, is styled as plain Mr Parente and not as the Prince of Castel Viscardo.
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
They didn't call his father "Count" on the official engagement announcement either, just Mr. Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi.

However, he used Count in the official announcement of his daughter's engagement in The Telegraph in 2012:



So either he stopped using it or BP decided "Mr" would be more appropriate. Either way, Bea is unlikely to use "Countess".
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  #5094  
Old 07-17-2020, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The style of Mr Mappelli-Mozzi is in accordance with UK law while the style of Count Mappelli-Mozzi isn't. It's as simple as that. It's the same as how William Parente, the owner of Wellbeck Abbey, is styled as plain Mr Parente and not as the Prince of Castel Viscardo.
But as others pointed out, Buckingham Palace has used other titles which are not recognized by UK (or any other country's) law, for example for the defunct royal family of Greece, whose titles have been abolished in Greece.
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  #5095  
Old 07-17-2020, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The style of Mr Mappelli-Mozzi is in accordance with UK law while the style of Count Mappelli-Mozzi isn't. It's as simple as that. It's the same as how William Parente, the owner of Wellbeck Abbey, is styled as plain Mr Parente and not as the Prince of Castel Viscardo.
My post wasn't about the legal use of titles per se but courtesy ones, which Buckingham Palace and the Queen personally have used before but didn't on Beatrice and Edoardo's announcement. However his father used his on his daughter's official engagement announcement in The Telegraph in 2012. Doesn't change anything but I thought it was interesting.
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  #5096  
Old 07-17-2020, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
Is Princess Beatrice now a countess?
Only according to her new father-in-law Alessandro. He insisted that is in fact exactly what she is once she marries his son.

I wonder if he attended the wedding this morning?
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  #5097  
Old 07-17-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Only according to her new father-in-law Alessandro. He insisted that is in fact exactly what she is once she marries his son.

I wonder if he attended the wedding this morning?

We will have to wait and see how Beatrice is referred to in the Court Circular or other official announcements from the Palace.


I understand Eugenie was initially still referred to as "Princess Eugenie of York" even after she had married, but the Palace has now adopted "Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank". In Beatrice's case, since her husband appears to be known as Mr Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi in the UK, I assume she will be known as Mrs Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi too.


Incidentally, Wikipedia has already dropped "of York" from the title of Beatrice's Wikipedia entry.
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  #5098  
Old 07-17-2020, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
We will have to wait and see how Beatrice is referred to in the Court Circular or other official announcements from the Palace.


I understand Eugenie was initially still referred to as "Princess Eugenie of York" even after she had married, but the Palace has now adopted "Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank". In Beatrice's case, since her husband appears to be known as Mr Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi in the UK, I assume she will be known as Mrs Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi too.


Incidentally, Wikipedia has already dropped "of York" from the title of Beatrice's Wikipedia entry.
I will write a post about Princess Eugenie's title later on, but what seems to have occurred is that Buckingham Palace adopted "Mrs Jack Brooksbank" while the Duke of York's household and Princess Eugenie herself used, and continue to use, "of York".

I doubt that whoever changed the Wikipedia entry knows any more than the rest of us.
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  #5099  
Old 07-17-2020, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Only according to her new father-in-law Alessandro. He insisted that is in fact exactly what she is once she marries his son.

I wonder if he attended the wedding this morning?

I though that Italian nobility does not exist anymore.
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  #5100  
Old 07-17-2020, 04:35 PM
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Foreign noble titles and the titles of deposed royals are two different matters in my opinion. The British law (is it a law?) concerning the approved use of foreign titles carried by British citizens aside there's a long standing tradition among the courts of Europe that members of deposed dynasties retain their titles. By now many of them have done so for two centuries. This tradition is so old that Andreas Palailogos could sell his imperial titles and his claims to the throne of the Eastern Roman Empire to King Charles VIII of France whose descendants Louis XII, Francois I, Henri II & Francois II all used imperial titles and honors.
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But as others pointed out, Buckingham Palace has used other titles which are not recognized by UK (or any other country's) law, for example for the defunct royal family of Greece, whose titles have been abolished in Greece.
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