Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Lady Meg]

The title will be not used during the lifetime of the person who refused it, and after his death the title will be inherited by his closest male relative.

So basically once it's gone - it's gone? You cannot "reclaim" it? I know these are dumb questions - but I'm not up to date with the laws of Britain. So, the only way you can receive a title is if Her Majesty grants you one?

 

[Iluvbertie]

No. Say the heir to the current Earl Spencer decided when his father died that he didn't wish to use that title he can simply say 'I am not going to be Earl Spencer'. However when he died, his son decides that he wants to be Earl Spencer he is able to do so because the title is his by inheritance. Just because his father said "I am not going to be Earl Spencer" doesn't deprive his heirs from holding that title.

The only way that that happens is if the monarch strips the title from the holder and the successors.

Another example would by the various titles removed during World War One. Althought the heirs haven't done so they can actually petition to have the title restored. Those titles can't be re-issued while their are legitimate heirs, who aren't using the titles, or able to by the Deprivations Act but the titles are still in existance.

 

[MAfan]

Another example can be the title of Earl of Home: in 1963 the 14th Earl of Home, Alec Douglas-Home, disclaimed his title, that was no longer used until his death; when he died in 1995, his son David automatically became the 15th Earl.

 

[Mermaid1962]

What happens in the meantime. If the title includes property, does the inheritor-but-not-user continue to maintain the property (use the farm, etc.)?

 

[Iluvbertie]

They have the right to use the property and the responsibility to maintain it just as any other owner of property does.
They might decide to establish a trust to run it but there is no reason why the property wouldn't still be his.
Unless the property is entailed (to male heirs for instance) even when a title becomes extinct the property can remain in the family e.g. my distant relatives had their title go extint in about 2000 due to no sons or nephews to inherit but the daughters were able to inherit all the property - house, shares, position in the family company etc. All they didn't get was the actual title.

 

[Lady Meg]

Thank you so much. I read somewhere about a man that tried to regain a title - but was denied. How does one go about petitioning to have the title restored? Do you have to write the Queen or whom??

 

[Iluvbertie]

You would technically apply to the Queen who would then check with the appropriate office to find out if the person is entitled to the honour. They would also check into why the original title bearer lost the title.
In the case of those who lost their titles under the Titles Deprivation Act the Parliament would also have to be involved as an Act of Parliament was involved in the deprivation of the title meaning that Parliament would have to be involved in restitution.

 

[wbenson]

The only way that that happens is if the monarch strips the title from the holder and the successors.

The monarch doesn't have the power to do that. Peerages can only be stripped (and letters patent can only be amended) by Act of Parliament (or in accordance with an Act of Parliament, such as the Titles Deprivation Act).

 

[Iluvbertie]

It might require legislation but the Queen also has to approve and can also instigate that - it isn't only one way.
In addition in the past monarchs have had the power to strip people of their titles (a long time ago I admit).
Sorry I worded my original post very badly and never meant to imply that the present Queen had rights that her predecessors had lost.

 

[di-fan72]

Sarah's title

Hi,

Can somebody tell me about Sarah's title. I know that she is called sarah duchess of York, but why is it not The Duchess and why is she still called duchess anyway, (she is divorced from the prince)? Does this give her some income, privileges, obligations? Or is it just a title?

What about when she remarries? is she keeping her title?

Thanks in advance.

Di-fan

 

[Lumutqueen]

She is not THE duchess because she is no longer married to THE duke of York. She lost her HRH, just like Diana did.

It's the proper address for divorced wives of peers.
She retains only the style, not the title of Duchess of York. This is to emphasize her changed status from wife to former wife of the Duke of York.

I believe she gets no income or priveliges and is not obliged to do anything.

If she remarries, she will lose the style.
Just as Princess Alexandra of Denmark did when she remarried.

 

[Iluvbertie]

All divorced wives of peers have the right to take their former title and use it the way Sarah does, and Diana did.

After the divorces both of them lost the HRH but they were able to use Duchess of York and Princess of Wales as a sort of surname so we got Sarah, Duchess of York, Diana, Princess of Wales. The wives of Earl Spencer used Countess Spencer in the same way after their divorces.

The use of 'The' with a capital 'T' is only done by the holder of the title and his wife so Andrew is The Duke of York but there is no The Duchess of York. If Andrew was to remarry his new wife would be The Duchess of York but Sarah would still be Sarah, Duchess of York.

 

[mrsbugman]

But if some terrible things happen, God forbid. And one of her daughters ascends the throne she will be "Queen Mother".

 

[Duchessmary]

Wait~how can that be? How would she be QM if she is divorced from Andrew?

 

[sliver_bic]

But if some terrible things happen, God forbid. And one of her daughters ascends the throne she will be "Queen Mother".

Queen Mother must be both the parent of the current monarch and the widow of the previous monarch. Unless Sarah were to remarry Andrew she would not be be a Queen Mother, just a mother to a Queen.

 

[di-fan72]

Thank you all for the answers! You made me a lot wiser!

 

[Iluvbertie]

Queen Mother must be both the parent of the current monarch and the widow of the previous monarch. Unless Sarah were to remarry Andrew she would not be be a Queen Mother, just a mother to a Queen.

Not only would she have to remarry Andrew but Andrew would also have to be King for Sarah to be the Queen Mother in the way that Elizabeth was.

However, it is also perfectly within the monarch's privilege to grant titles and so Beatrice could create her mother 'The Queen's Mother' with capital letters and a formal title in her own right (which I would expect in this scenario - to ensure that her mother had an appropriate official status she would need something done).

 

[cmkrcwi]

King Michael of Romania's mother was declared Queen Mother even though she and his father were divorced before he became king.

 

[branchg]

Yes, but Helen of Romania had already become Queen when Carol managed to return and replace Michael as King. Although he refused to allow her the title of Queen, she was "HM Helen of Romania", a style she retained with divorce and in exile.

When Michael became King again, he declared his mother was "HM The Queen Mother of Romania".

 

[jonnydep]

hi....
sorry to my understanding helen was never queen, she and carol had divorced in 1928. he was proclaimed king in 1930, abdicated the throne in 1940 in the favor of his son michael who was king from 1927 (due to the death of his grandfather king ferdinand) until 1930 !.
cheers...

 

[Lumutqueen]

Helen received the designation Queen Mother of Romania (Regina mamă, Elena). When Michael ascended.

When married she was Crown Princess of Romania, but when Carol ascended the throne Helen was told by the Prime Minister Iuliu Maniu that as a result of the abrogation of the act of 4 January 1926, Carol had legitimately succeeded as king in July 1927, from which point she had automatically ranked as queen.

The government presented a decree to Carol for his signature officially confirming Helen as Her Majesty The Queen of Romania. Carol, however, crossed this out and declared Helen to be Her Majesty Helen (i.e. with the style Majesty, but not the title Queen).

She was never a Queen.

 

[silviaelena]

Only for curiosity, the day that dies the prince Andrew, that will happen with him title?, will Sarah continue using title Duchess of York ?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Only for curiosity, the day that dies the prince Andrew, that will happen with him title?, will Sarah continue using title Duchess of York ?

The day that Prince Andrew dies, assuming that he hasn't remarried and had a son, the Duke of York title will revert to the Crown.

Sarah isn't using the title Duchess of York now. She is using the words Duchess of York more as a surname but she isn't The Duchess of York. She will still be able to use that designation until she herself dies, or she remarries someone other than Andrew. She will be able to style herself Sarah, Duchess of York even after Andrew dies.

One one to look at it is if she had been married to John Smith and still called herself Sarah Smith after getting divorced and John Smith died she could still call herself Sarah Smith so after Andrew died she would still be entitled to call herself Sarah, Duchess of York (even if Andrew has remarried and had a son who became Duke of York after his father).

 

[Lady Meg]

Ok - question - here is a title that became extinct. It would be the Earl of Sefton. I read on a page that

When the last Earl died in 1972, a worldwide search was made for an heir to the title but without success.

- if someone who was a direct descendant of the family spoke up what would happen, and what if that person was a female? It would obviously have to be checked out. Which is where I have a question - The parents of Lady Anne Gerrard who was wife to Governor of Maryland, Thomas Greene. Does anyone have any idea who they were? Was it Sir Thomas Lord Baron of Bryne Gerrard/Gerard and Lady Frances Molyneux? If so was Lady Frances Molyneux's parents Sir Richard, 1st Baronet of Sefton Molyneux and Lady Frances of Sefton Gerrard? Anyone know anything?

 

[Iluvbertie]

The standard for most titles is heirs male of the body so unless the person who spoke up was able to prove male descent they have no claim - a claim through a female won't count.

 

[Lady Meg]

If women can inherit the throne - they really need to change this no female rule.
Boohoo!

 

[Iluvbertie]

If women can inherit the throne - they really need to change this no female rule.
Boohoo!

I agree. I would love to see other titles at least to the same standards as the monarchy - if no sons then the daughters can inherit rather than the case at the moment where if there are only daughters the title becomes extinct.

Personally I hope when they pass legislation to go to gender blind succession to the monarchy they do the same for all titles - gender blind (and even possible back date it to allow for a living eldest daughter of a title that had gone extinct to take on that title e.g. my distant family's title of Viscount Leverhulme went extinct when the 3rd Viscount died leaving only daughters but I would love to see the eldest be able to claim the title if they changed the legislation - of course I would specify only if the eldest daughter or maybe one further generation only still living).

 

[Lady Meg]

I agree. I would love to see other titles at least to the same standards as the monarchy - if no sons then the daughters can inherit rather than the case at the moment where if there are only daughters the title becomes extinct.

Personally I hope when they pass legislation to go to gender blind succession to the monarchy they do the same for all titles - gender blind (and even possible back date it to allow for a living eldest daughter of a title that had gone extinct to take on that title e.g. my distant family's title of Viscount Leverhulme went extinct when the 3rd Viscount died leaving only daughters but I would love to see the eldest be able to claim the title if they changed the legislation - of course I would specify only if the eldest daughter or maybe one further generation only still living).

Exactly - it's way overdue - yes, there are some titles I have been searching for and I'm pretty sure no one in my immediate family would be interested except for me.

 

[snowflower]

I now this is OT but I can't find another to post my question: Camilla chose to be known as the Duchess of Cornwall upon her marriage to Charles. In case Charles dies before ascending to the throne, what will be Camilla's title? I mean, if William becomes King and he has a son, he will be the Duke of Cornwall right? So he will be the Duke of Cornwall and Camilla( his step grandmother) the Duchess of Cornwall? Because that will be kind of weird I think.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I now this is OT but I can't find another to post my question: Camilla chose to be known as the Duchess of Cornwall upon her marriage to Charles. In case Charles dies before ascending to the throne, what will be Camilla's title? I mean, if William becomes King and he has a son, he will be the Duke of Cornwall right? So he will be the Duke of Cornwall and Camilla( his step grandmother) the Duchess of Cornwall? Because that will be kind of weird I think.

If Charles dies before ascending the throne Camilla will remain HRH Camilla, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall etc and William's son will also be The Duke of Cornwall.

This happens all the time - where the wife of the desceased Duke is still known by the Duchess of xxxx while their is a new Duke and Duchess using the same title, but the new Duchess has the The with a capital 'T' whereas the mother Duchess technically should be known as the Dowager Duchess of xxxx but often the word Dowager is left off.

If Andrew remarries then his wife would be known as The Duchess of York but Sarah would still be able to be Sarah, Duchess of York - her divorced style.