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  #4461  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:27 PM
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I'll be amazed (& very disappointed) if Camilla isn't styled Queen. She'll be the King's wife so she will be Queen. On what grounds should she be styled less than that?

As I've said before, I think BP could be sensitive to the title of 'The Queen' being so entrenched in almost everyone's mind as QE2 the monarch by using 'Queen Camilla' a lot to start with. I know that's not the norm but flexibility in her title due to public associations with someone else isn't something new. People would gradually become accustomed to 'Queen Camilla' and 'The King and Queen' to the point where 'The Queen' isn't going to result in too much pearl clutching in the shires.
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  #4462  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
I'll be amazed (& very disappointed) if Camilla isn't styled Queen. She'll be the King's wife so she will be Queen. On what grounds should she be styled less than that?

As I've said before, I think BP could be sensitive to the title of 'The Queen' being so entrenched in almost everyone's mind as QE2 the monarch by using 'Queen Camilla' a lot to start with. I know that's not the norm but flexibility in her title due to public associations with someone else isn't something new. People would gradually become accustomed to 'Queen Camilla' and 'The King and Queen' to the point where 'The Queen' isn't going to result in too much pearl clutching in the shires.
Agreed. There will be initial reactions, but they'll get over it. And I do think it's helpful to monarchy overall for his mother to be more known as QEII than The Queen over time. She's obviously The Queen today, but in order for monarchy to survive, we need to remember that the title outweighs the individual rather than one individual being equivalent to that title.
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  #4463  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:47 PM
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Even simpler would be to use the style "Queen Consort" as that denotes she's the consort to the King and not "The Queen" like QE2 is as monarch. It would probably be like marking the differences between Queen Elizabeth II and Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. People got used to calling the latter The Queen Mum as an affectionate term and still do. Calling Camilla "The Queen" would stick in people's throats for a long time simply because the majority of the people on our planet have only known one Queen as the monarch of the UK.

I think it would take years for me to hear the words "The Queen" and *not* think of Queen Elizabeth II. Perhaps "Queen Camilla" could be used later on should she outlive her husband? "Queen Camilla" reminds me too much of the courtesy styling of a divorced wife of a title holder where the woman's first name can be used similar to Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. I can just imagine the slants being put on that one.

Hmmmmm... Her Majesty, The Queen Consort puts me in mind of a previous Prince Consort that had a close and loving relationship with his wife and monarch, Queen Victoria.
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  #4464  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Even simpler would be to use the style "Queen Consort" as that denotes she's the consort to the King and not "The Queen" like QE2 is as monarch. It would probably be like marking the differences between Queen Elizabeth II and Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother. People got used to calling the latter The Queen Mum as an affectionate term and still do. Calling Camilla "The Queen" would stick in people's throats for a long time simply because the majority of the people on our planet have only known one Queen as the monarch of the UK.

I think it would take years for me to hear the words "The Queen" and *not* think of Queen Elizabeth II. Perhaps "Queen Camilla" could be used later on should she outlive her husband? "Queen Camilla" reminds me too much of the courtesy styling of a divorced wife of a title holder where the woman's first name can be used similar to Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York. I can just imagine the slants being put on that one.

Hmmmmm... Her Majesty, The Queen Consort puts me in mind of a previous Prince Consort that had a close and loving relationship with his wife and monarch, Queen Victoria.
But she would be "The Queen". I think to style her any other way would serve to diminish her rightfully attained role. And at what point do you make the transition back to The Queen? IMO, just jump right in, calling her The Queen from the beginning. The sooner she is called this, the sooner the people will get used to hearing it. Before long, it will be instant recognition as it is today.
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  #4465  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:26 PM
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Court Circular 29th May:
Buckingham Palace

The Queen gave an Afternoon Party in the garden of Buckingham Palace.
The Duke of Sussex, Princess Beatrice of York, Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank, The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester, The Duke of Kent and Prince and Princess Michael of Kent were present.
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  #4466  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Larisa View Post
Court Circular 29th May:
Buckingham Palace

The Queen gave an Afternoon Party in the garden of Buckingham Palace.
The Duke of Sussex, Princess Beatrice of York, Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank, The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester, The Duke of Kent and Prince and Princess Michael of Kent were present.
It is interesting that the Palace makes a pointto use the right style for Eugenie, but not for Archie Mountabatten-Windsor.
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  #4467  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:45 PM
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Archie's titles are determined by his parents at this age and it is clear that Harry and Meghan have asked for him to be styled as Master and not as Lord or Earl Dumbarton.
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  #4468  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Archie's titles are determined by his parents at this age and it is clear that Harry and Meghan have asked for him to be styled as Master and not as Lord or Earl Dumbarton.
As the son of a Duke , he should be a Lord even if he didnít use one of his fatherís subsidiary titles as courtesy. There is no rationale to style him Master.
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  #4469  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is interesting that the Palace makes a pointto use the right style for Eugenie, but not for Archie Mountabatten-Windsor.
The Palace actually made a stronger point for Archie Mountbatten-Windsor's style: A statement was made and they have consistently called him Master Archie Mountbatten-Windsor.

By way of comparison, no statement was given on Princess Eugenie's style, and the Palace called her Princess Eugenie of York (including an entry in the Court Circular on March 21) up until some weeks ago, when her style was changed with no explanation to Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2206491
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2223305
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  #4470  
Old 05-30-2019, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
As the son of a Duke , he should be a Lord even if he didnít use one of his fatherís subsidiary titles as courtesy. There is no rationale to style him Master.
He's *entitled* to be styled Earl or Lord but his parents have chosen not to, just as Camilla has chosen not to be styled Princess of Wales.
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  #4471  
Old 05-30-2019, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
As the son of a Duke , he should be a Lord even if he didnít use one of his fatherís subsidiary titles as courtesy. There is no rationale to style him Master.
The rationale is that if Archie is known as Master, then it's the Queen's Will that he is known as that. It's the same argument why Lady Louise isn't styled as Princess of Wessex.
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  #4472  
Old 05-30-2019, 06:03 PM
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I found this. Master is sometimes used in Scotland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast...ge_of_Scotland)
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  #4473  
Old 05-30-2019, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
The rationale is that if Archie is known as Master, then it's the Queen's Will that he is known as that. It's the same argument why Lady Louise isn't styled as Princess of Wessex.
As has been discussed, it seems that while Lady Louise's title seems to be a permanent one, it's not clear yet that Archie will just be 'master Archie' all his life (well, at least until he otherwise would suddenly become a (royal?) duke).
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  #4474  
Old 05-30-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I found this. Master is sometimes used in Scotland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast...ge_of_Scotland)
If Master was the use of a Scottish courtesy title for the heir of a peerage, it would be, based on Scottish usages, The Master of Sussex.

The Palace statement communicated that Archie's parents "have chosen not to give him a courtesy title at this time". For him, the use of Master is the equivalent of Mister for young boys, in the same way the palace uses Master for page boys at royal weddings.
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  #4475  
Old 05-30-2019, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is interesting that the Palace makes a pointto use the right style for Eugenie, but not for Archie Mountabatten-Windsor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Archie's titles are determined by his parents at this age and it is clear that Harry and Meghan have asked for him to be styled as Master and not as Lord or Earl Dumbarton.
I think the original comment may have been wondering as to why the Duke and Duchess of Sussex had a choice whereas Princess Eugenie did not. Archie's parents had the ability to determine how their son would be styled because the Queen allowed them the choice. A declaration of the Queen's Will would have overruled the wishes of the parents.

For Princess Eugenie, it seems she had no choice. I think it is improbable that the change from "of York" to "Mrs. Jack Brookbrank" was sought by Eugenie herself and that it was most likely the Queen's Will, for the reasons I discussed here:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2223727
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  #4476  
Old 05-30-2019, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
The rationale is that if Archie is known as Master, then it's the Queen's Will that he is known as that. It's the same argument why Lady Louise isn't styled as Princess of Wessex.

The Queen's will and pleasure extends to royal titles and styles like Prince/Princess, but not to courtesy styles in the peerage. Could the Queen decide that it is her will and pleasure that a son of an ordinary Duke be styled as Master xxxx rather than Lord xxx ? I don't think so.


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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The Palace statement communicated that Archie's parents "have chosen not to give him a courtesy title at this time". For him, the use of Master is the equivalent of Mister for young boys, in the same way the palace uses Master for page boys at royal weddings.

They may have chosen not to call him "Earl of Dumbarton", but why would they choose not to call him "Lord Archie Mountbatten-Windsor" rather than "Master Artchie" ?
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  #4477  
Old 05-30-2019, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
They may have chosen not to call him "Earl of Dumbarton", but why would they choose not to call him "Lord Archie Mountbatten-Windsor" rather than "Master Artchie" ?
I have wondered about that as well, since the Duke and Duchess of Sussex apparently have no difficulty with their son having a title. Depending on what source one believes, they have either agreed to their son using the title of Prince, or agreed to their son becoming a legal prince with the option of using the title, once his grandfather is King. If they preferred the sound of "Archie" to Dumbarton or Kilkeel, or if they wished to treat Archie the same way as any future younger siblings, Lord Archie would also be in line with those intentions.

The sole difference I can see between Lord Archie Mountbatten-Windsor and Master/Mr. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor is that Lord Archie Mountbatten-Windsor would properly be addressed using his first name as Lord Archie, while Master/Mr. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor would properly be addressed using his last name as Master/Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The Queen's will and pleasure extends to royal titles and styles like Prince/Princess, but not to courtesy styles in the peerage. Could the Queen decide that it is her will and pleasure that a son of an ordinary Duke be styled as Master xxxx rather than Lord xxx ? I don't think so.
It is left to the Queen to confer courtesy titles such as Lady and Lord on persons who are not ordinarily entitled to it, for example the siblings of a peer who inherited his peerage from his cousin. I would think it is also in her power to reverse that process.
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  #4478  
Old 05-30-2019, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
As the son of a Duke , he should be a Lord even if he didnít use one of his fatherís subsidiary titles as courtesy. There is no rationale to style him Master.
The rationale is 'parents request'.

Their son and thus their decision.

That is all the rationale that is needed.
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  #4479  
Old 05-30-2019, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The Palace actually made a stronger point for Archie Mountbatten-Windsor's style: A statement was made and they have consistently called him Master Archie Mountbatten-Windsor.

By way of comparison, no statement was given on Princess Eugenie's style, and the Palace called her Princess Eugenie of York (including an entry in the Court Circular on March 21) up until some weeks ago, when her style was changed with no explanation to Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2206491
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2223305
No explanation is needed. The Queen doesn't need to make her Will public via a statement other than simply having the official records use the title she wants used.

The Queen's Will can be communicated anyway she wishes with no formal announcement of a change at all.
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  #4480  
Old 05-30-2019, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The rationale is 'parents request'.
I believe Mbruno is referring to the parents' rationale for their request.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Their son and thus their decision.

That is all the rationale that is needed.
The Queen's Will that the parents make the decision was needed as well. As I pointed out, the rationale "her name and thus her decision" did not extend to Princess Eugenie, whose own decision appears to have been overruled by the Queen's Will.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
No explanation is needed. The Queen doesn't need to make her Will public via a statement other than simply having the official records use the title she wants used.

The Queen's Will can be communicated anyway she wishes with no formal announcement of a change at all.
That is true, but it is interesting that certain decisions are communicated with formal announcements while others are not. And it is strange that the change was carried out more than six months after the wedding instead of on the wedding day, as is tradition.
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