Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Denville]

Given all that's happened and the changes that the family has undergone over the last 20+ years and the fact that Sophie and Edward are now full time working royals even though they, at the time, weren't planning to be, I wonder if we might possibly see Louise and James' styles being changed as they age to be more in line with those of the typically male-line royals?

I realize this might be controversial and contentious even though I don't intend for it to be but things haven't really turned out as planned on many fronts within the RF and I really wouldn't be all that surprised to find the Wessex children and the York girls stepping in to perform royal duties on a relatively frequent basis, even if they do manage to hold outside careers. I guess I'm thinking of something much along the lines already done by the York girls with their attendance at garden parties, Maundy Thursday services, etc. Nothing too frequent, nothing too time consuming, but the occasional appearance or duty. And, if that's the case and if the monarch and the Wessexes and Louise/James agree, it seems as though it would be fitting and, in fact, the right thing to do to allow them the style they're technically entitled to have.

Sophie and Edward have proved a help because of the departure now of Andrew, H and Meghan. but I think the main reason they were given full tiem royal work was that their businesses were causing trouble, and they had to stop them. I don't think that Louise and James will take on royal duties beyond a small bit of helping out and they are still having their education..so it would be a few years before they are free. I don't think they wll get the HRH.

 

[_Heather_]

Sophie and Edward have proved a help because of the departure now of Andrew, H and Meghan. but I think the main reason they were given full tiem royal work was that their businesses were causing trouble, and they had to stop them. I don't think that Louise and James will take on royal duties beyond a small bit of helping out and they are still having their education..so it would be a few years before they are free. I don't think they wll get the HRH.

I probably didn't really word it very well but I understand all of that and why Sophie and Edward are now full time working royals even though at the time of their marriage they were expected not to be. I guess I'm just thinking that over time as the numbers of older royals dwindle, we might see a new model in some respects that Charles/Camilla, William/Catherine, Anne, and Edward/Sophie pick up the majority of the "big stuff" but maybe for smaller things like garden parties, Maundy Thursday services, specific causes that are close to them like scoliosis for Eugenie or eye charities for Louise, etc. they might allow the Yorks and the Wessex children to be somewhat involved on a limited basis and, if that happens, it does feel right to me that they reevaluate the title/style situation for Louise and James simply because things have changed and circumstances are quite different than they were anticipated to be.

 

[Denville]

I probably didn't really word it very well but I understand all of that and why Sophie and Edward are now full time working royals even though at the time of their marriage they were expected not to be. I guess I'm just thinking that over time as the numbers of older royals dwindle, we might see a new model in some respects that Charles/Camilla, William/Catherine, Anne, and Edward/Sophie pick up the majority of the "big stuff" but maybe for smaller things like garden parties, Maundy Thursday services, specific causes that are close to them like scoliosis for Eugenie or eye charities for Louise, etc. they might allow the Yorks and the Wessex children to be somewhat involved on a limited basis and, if that happens, it does feel right to me that they reevaluate the title/style situation for Louise and James simply because things have changed and circumstances are quite different than they were anticipated to be.

I don't think the Yorks will be asked to do more than perhaps take on a few more things per year. I doubt if they want to, they will likely be having kids soon. And James and Louise if they are only picked up to help out for a few years, what is the point of giving them HRH?

 

[_Heather_]

I don't think the Yorks will be asked to do more than perhaps take on a few more things per year. I doubt if they want to, they will likely be having kids soon. And James and Louise if they are only picked up to help out for a few years, what is the point of giving them HRH?

Truthfully, I guess only as a kind of thank you and acknowledgement. I don't expect Charles to support his nieces and nephews forever, especially if they're only stepping up to do a handful of duties each per year but, since they wouldn't be getting any kind of retirement per se or even income from the crown other than maybe expenses for those few duties each year, it would seem to be a relatively simple and thoughtful gesture just as a thank you and a bit of an acknowledgement of the titles and styles they'd most likely have occupied from birth if there had been a crystal ball handy.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

If the assumption that the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh wanted the dukedom of Edinburgh to pass to Edward specifically is correct, then I suppose that would be the reason. I cannot see what issues it would create.

But I am not arguing that the theory is unreasonable; I simply find the reported narrative more likely.

Since BP actually announced on his wedding day that Edward would be made the Duke of Edinburgh eventually, I see no reason to doubt that plan.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Since BP actually announced on his wedding day that Edward would be made the Duke of Edinburgh eventually, I see no reason to doubt that plan.

Nor do I see any reason to doubt that it has been the plan since (at the latest) the announcement on the wedding day, but in the context of this discussion the question is whether it was the only plan which was ever contemplated (prior to the wedding).

 

[Somebody]

If the assumption that the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh wanted the dukedom of Edinburgh to pass to Edward specifically is correct, then I suppose that would be the reason. I cannot see what issues it would create.

But I am not arguing that the theory is unreasonable; I simply find the reported narrative more likely.

I am not sure what you consider 'the theory' and 'the reported narrative'. Given that it was officially communicated that the intention is for Edward to become the future duke of Edinburgh, that is my starting point... (unfortunately, due to very slow internet I cannot refer you to the specific statement made)

Any rumors about what Edward and Sophie 'wanted' or 'liked' come second.

 

[Denville]

Truthfully, I guess only as a kind of thank you and acknowledgement. I don't expect Charles to support his nieces and nephews forever, especially if they're only stepping up to do a handful of duties each per year but, since they wouldn't be getting any kind of retirement per se or even income from the crown other than maybe expenses for those few duties each year, it would seem to be a relatively simple and thoughtful gesture just as a thank you and a bit of an acknowledgement of the titles and styles they'd most likely have occupied from birth if there had been a crystal ball handy.

But what happens when they give up royal duties or just do a very little like Bea and Eugeine are doing now? It wouldn't look very nice to take it away and they may well feel that they would prefer not to have the titles of Prince and Princess. If they do take on work, Charles will problaby make them an allowance..but I think he does not want to have to do that for life, for everyone who does some regular work. the Duchy of Cornwall's resources are not limitless.

 

[_Heather_]

But what happens when they give up royal duties or just do a very little like Bea and Eugeine are doing now? It wouldn't look very nice to take it away and they may well feel that they would prefer not to have the titles of Prince and Princess. If they do take on work, Charles will problaby make them an allowance..but I think he does not want to have to do that for life, for everyone who does some regular work. the Duchy of Cornwall's resources are not limitless.

I think I actually said "if" everyone involved is in agreement. I also said that it should be made clear that they will not be supported by the crown but simply paid expenses for the work they do. They may not even want the titles and styles and if not then fine. And frankly I don't think that offering them the titles and styles that technically should have been theirs would require stripping them of it when they're not performing a high number of duties since, in the scenario I mentioned, they wouldn't even be expected to perform a high number of duties. I simply think it might be nice gesture, a bit of a thank you that costs no one anything, and a bit of an acknowledgement that their presence and willingness to step in even on a small scale is of great help to the RF. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a nicety, I suppose, for helping to fill a void.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I am not sure what you consider 'the theory' and 'the reported narrative'. Given that it was officially communicated that the intention is for Edward to become the future duke of Edinburgh, that is my starting point... (unfortunately, due to very slow internet I cannot refer you to the specific statement made)

Any rumors about what Edward and Sophie 'wanted' or 'liked' come second.

The rumor that the plan for Edward to become Duke of Edinburgh was the starting point, and the decision not to create him a Duke at the time of his wedding was the consequence of that, is a theory. It may be true, but it is not confirmed by Buckingham Palace.

The official announcement stated:

Title of HRH The Prince Edward

The Queen has today been pleased to confer an Earldom on The Prince Edward. His titles will be Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn. The Prince Edward thus becomes His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex and Miss Sophie Rhys-Jones on marriage will become Her Royal Highness The Countess of Wessex.

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The Queen has also decided, with the agreement of The Prince Edward and Miss Rhys-Jones, that any children they might have should not be given the style His or Her Royal Highness, but would have courtesy titles as sons or daughters of an Earl.​

The announcement did not state a link between the decision to grant an earldom without a dukedom and the plan for the Edinburgh dukedom.

Several options are in the running: The earldom decision may have been the consequence of the Edinburgh plan (as you believe), the Edinburgh plan may have been the consequence of the earldom decision, or the two matters may have been determined independently of each other.

 

[Denville]

I think I actually said "if" everyone involved is in agreement. I also said that it should be made clear that they will not be supported by the crown but simply paid expenses for the work they do. They may not even want the titles and styles and if not then fine. And frankly I don't think that offering them the titles and styles that technically should have been theirs would require stripping them of it when they're not performing a high number of duties since, in the scenario I mentioned, they wouldn't even be expected to perform a high number of duties. I simply think it might be nice gesture, a bit of a thank you that costs no one anything, and a bit of an acknowledgement that their presence and willingness to step in even on a small scale is of great help to the RF. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a nicety, I suppose, for helping to fill a void.

I suppose so, I just feel that Charles will probably be cautious about HRH's as well as about taking on "temporary help". and I think Lou and James, having grown up without the HRH will not want it.. and may only regard it as a bit of a hindrance in their normal life. I think if they are asked, nicely, they'll be happy to help a bit

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I am not sure what you consider 'the theory' and 'the reported narrative'. Given that it was officially communicated that the intention is for Edward to become the future duke of Edinburgh, that is my starting point... (unfortunately, due to very slow internet I cannot refer you to the specific statement made)

Any rumors about what Edward and Sophie 'wanted' or 'liked' come second.

BBC NEWS | Special Report | 1999 | 06/99 | royal wedding | Wessex titles for Edward and Sophie

"Prince Edward has been made Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn in honour of his marriage to Sophie Rhys-Jones.
Royal Wedding Sophie will now be styled Her Royal Highness, the Countess of Wessex, shortened to simply Sophie Wessex.

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom."

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I don't think the agreement is in dispute. I posted the full statement above, if you are interested.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I don't think the agreement is in dispute. I posted the full statement above, if you are interested.

IMO, it is obvious that no matter what discussions took place prior to settling on "the Earl title now, specifically the Duke of Edinburgh title in the future" scenario, the Duke of Edinburgh title was the deciding factor in Edward only receiving the Earldom at the time of his wedding. But then, none of us were there for the discussions with the Queen.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

IMO, it is obvious that no matter what discussions took place prior to settling on "the Earl title now, specifically the Duke of Edinburgh title in the future" scenario, the Duke of Edinburgh title was the deciding factor in Edward only receiving the Earldom at the time of his wedding. But then, none of us were there for the discussions with the Queen.

Yes, unfortunately none of us can conclusively tell what occurred. But I must disagree with there being only one "obvious" explanation. In view of the official statement in 1999 (quoted in the article you posted) that the Wessex children's styles reflected "the clear personal wish" of their parents, and Archie's non-usage of a courtesy title being officially communicated as his parents' decision, the reports that Prince Edward made his own choice regarding his title are at least plausible (and in my personal opinion, likely, for the reasons I earlier gave).

 

[Durham]

Does anyone know why The Duchess of Sussex is being referred to as "Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex"? It sounds so alien. Is this just people making it up as they go along or have I missed some official announcement?

 

[Pranter]

Does anyone know why The Duchess of Sussex is being referred to as "Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex"? It sounds so alien. Is this just people making it up as they go along or have I missed some official announcement?

Because ppl don't evidently realize she's being titled incorrectly is my guess. Somehow the PR ppl at BP didn't grasp that this is the way you refer to a woman divorced (or widowed) from the Duke of Sussex.


LaRae

 

[Lumutqueen]

Does anyone know why The Duchess of Sussex is being referred to as "Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex"? It sounds so alien. Is this just people making it up as they go along or have I missed some official announcement?

There’s not been an official announcement, there won’t be now but I remember reading that it’s what they’ve asked for. It’s the, The, that makes it different from the divorced style.

 

[Durham]

Thank you to you both for your responses.

It's all very unsatisfactory. I hadn't realised that BP had referred to her in this way. Very peculiar.

I appreciate that this is an unusual situation but things shouldn't just be changed so lightly. Otherwise what's the point of having rules about styles & titles.

 

[Somebody]

Does anyone know why The Duchess of Sussex is being referred to as "Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex"? It sounds so alien. Is this just people making it up as they go along or have I missed some official announcement?

I guess that's what Meghan herself approved. As it is in the official Disney trailer.

Because ppl don't evidently realize she's being titled incorrectly is my guess. Somehow the PR ppl at BP didn't grasp that this is the way you refer to a woman divorced (or widowed) from the Duke of Sussex.


LaRae

No, it's not. It would be Meghan, Duchess of Sussex in the case of a divorce. Disney uses 'Meghan, THE Duchess of Sussex'.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Thank you to you both for your responses.

It's is all very unsatisfactory. I hadn't realised that BP had referred to her in this way. Very peculiar.

I appreciate that this is an unusual situation but things shouldn't just be changed so lightly. Otherwise what's the point of having rules about styles & titles.

Has BP referred to her in this way? I don't believe so.

Nothings really been changed, except for the use of their HRH. They are still The Duke and Duchess of Sussex, but if they've made it known they want to be referred to as Henry, The Duke of Sussex and Meghan, The Duchess of Sussex. That is their choice.

Afterall it won't matter with the press anyway, she's still Meghan Markle to them.

 

[Durham]

Well, marginally better than "Duchess Meghan" I suppose. That really would be the end. And no this is not about the specific individual just in case anyone thinks it is. I am genuinely puzzled (& irked) that centuries of tradition can be so lightly discarded. And seemingly approved of or at least tolerated.

 

[Durham]

Has BP referred to her in this way? I don't believe so.

Nothings really been changed, except for the use of their HRH. They are still The Duke and Duchess of Sussex, but if they've made it known they want to be referred to as Henry, The Duke of Sussex and Meghan, The Duchess of Sussex. That is their choice.

Afterall it won't matter with the press anyway, she's still Meghan Markle to them.

BP hasn't referred to them in this way? My mistake then. I understood Pranter to say that the palace pr team had called her this?

Ah, so it is their choice. I wasn't sure. Still think it's wrong to mess about with traditional forms of address though.

About the press, oh yes I'm sure you're right. But there again, what do they know about correct forms of address?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I guess that's what Meghan herself approved. As it is in the official Disney trailer.



No, it's not. It would be Meghan, Duchess of Sussex in the case of a divorce. Disney uses 'Meghan, THE Duchess of Sussex'.

The combination is unusual but factually Meghan, The Duchess of Sussex is correct as indeed The Duchess of Sussex is Meghan... It is much better than "Duchess Meghan" or "Duchess Meghan Markle".

 

[Durham]

It's not as if there are hordes of Duchesses of Sussex out there.

Does that mean if Harry remarries then it will be Meghan, a Duchess of Sussex? And then if he takes a third wife then (name of divorced no 2), another Duchess of Sussex?

Sorry, I've got the ball now & I'm gong to keep running with it.

The whole thing is silly beyond words. She is "The Duchess of Sussex", end of.

 

[Lumutqueen]

It's not as if there are hordes of Duchesses of Sussex out there.



Does that mean if Harry remarries then it will be Meghan, a Duchess of Sussex? And then if he takes a third wife then (name of divorced no 2), another Duchess of Sussex?



Sorry, I've got the ball now & I'm gong to keep running with it.



The whole thing is silly beyond words. She is "The Duchess of Sussex", end of.

If Henry remarries, she becomes Meghan, Duchess of Sussex. She drops “The”.

 

[Pranter]

BP hasn't referred to them in this way? My mistake then. I understood Pranter to say that the palace pr team had called her this?

Ah, so it is their choice. I wasn't sure. Still think it's wrong to mess about with traditional forms of address though.

About the press, oh yes I'm sure you're right. But there again, what do they know about correct forms of address?

https://time.com/5768763/buckingham-palace-harry-meghan-new-titles-divorce/


.....the Palace said the couple would be addressed moving forward as “Harry, Duke of Sussex” and “Meghan, Duchess of Sussex.”.....


LaRae

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It's not as if there are hordes of Duchesses of Sussex out there.

Does that mean if Harry remarries then it will be Meghan, a Duchess of Sussex? And then if he takes a third wife then (name of divorced no 2), another Duchess of Sussex?

Sorry, I've got the ball now & I'm gong to keep running with it.

The whole thing is silly beyond words. She is "The Duchess of Sussex", end of.

Raine, Countess Spencer
Victoria, Countess Spencer
Caroline, Countess Spencer
The Countess Spencer (Karen)

So yes, if Harry marries two more times we can have three "Duchess of Sussex" walking around.

 

[Durham]

If Henry remarries, she becomes Meghan, Duchess of Sussex. She drops “The”.

I know. I was just being mischievous.

 

[Durham]

https://time.com/5768763/buckingham-palace-harry-meghan-new-titles-divorce/


.....the Palace said the couple would be addressed moving forward as “Harry, Duke of Sussex” and “Meghan, Duchess of Sussex.”.....


LaRae

Thanks for this. Missed this first time round.