Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Denville]

Its been explained in full in post #3677. One of our members wrote to Buckingham Palace about this matter and the explanation is given in full in the post I've mentioned.

They are not legally HRH and will never be.

I don't see that they never will be. I think it is unlikey but it is up to a monarch.. its possible that they could be given HRH at a later date..

 

[Abbigail]

Its just my gut feelings but I think if there's an announcement that is going to be made, it will happen before the birth of the child. Everything all set, confirmed and ready to go before the kid arrives.

Agreed. I don't think it's debatable, frankly. Given the massive interest in Harry and Meghan and this pregnancy, the palace won't be able to sit by and just let things play out. If the Queen does nothing and the child is styled as Lord/Lady, there will be a lot of wondering why he or she isn't a prince/princess. We, nor the palace, should assume that the general public knows how this all works or that nothing needs to be explained. As much as some would like to believe otherwise, PR and optics do matter. If the royals didn't think so, they wouldn't have multiple social media accounts. And in this case, I think they know they have to make clear if/when the Sussex children will be upgraded to HRH. If they will never be styled as such, then the palace absolutely has to make it clear that this was Harry and Meghan's decision, though I doubt that would stop some from insisting it was a slight to the Sussexes, Meghan specifically.

I am of the belief that they should be styled as HRH, be it at birth or once Charles becomes king. I also suspect that this is what Charles wants and Harry and Meghan will ultimately defer to him.

 

[Denville]

William worked mainly in one of the few careers available to Royalty without much criticism-military service. If he had gone into a for profit business criticism would have been rampant.

There are other jobs.....

 

[ACO]

I just remember how much of a media storm occurred when the formal consent came out for Harry and Meghan and it didn't include "Well Beloved." It was a thing. A major thing and the palace officials had to explain due to the chaos it caused.

So when some say that no explanation could cause a ruckus they are not wrong. History has proven that. I am on the agreement that nothing will be said unless they are getting HRH from birth or not at all. Those are the two announcements but that doesn't mean the press won't force an explanation out of them.

 

[American Observer7]

I just remember how much of a media storm occurred when the formal consent came out for Harry and Meghan and it didn't include "Well Beloved." It was a thing. A major thing and the palace officials had to explain due to the chaos it caused.

So when some say that no explanation could cause a ruckus they are not wrong. History has proven that. I am on the agreement that nothing will be said unless they are getting HRH from birth or not at all. Those are the two announcements but that doesn't mean the press won't force an explanation out of them.

I agree and I agree with the poster that stated the Queen may make an exception for Harry because his father only has the two boys and I still believe she'll do it for Harry because his child will be the first biracial royal and that is important. And she did it for William so she'll do it for Harry unless he and Meghan ask her not to.

 

[Denville]

I agree and I agree with the poster that stated the Queen may make an exception for Harry because his father only has the two boys and I still believe she'll do it for Harry because his child will be the first biracial royal and that is important. And she did it for William so she'll do it for Harry unless he and Meghan ask her not to.

his child is NOT the first biracial royal child.... and that has nothing to do with the HRH....

 

[ACO]

I agree and I agree with the poster that stated the Queen may make an exception for Harry because his father only has the two boys and I still believe she'll do it for Harry because his child will be the first biracial royal and that is important. And she did it for William so she'll do it for Harry unless he and Meghan ask her not to.

That I do not agree with. My point was about it being discussed because of the media's aggression. The decision will be the decision that is of the best to the monarchy. The end. I think some are bleeding their own hopes into something that really isn't about that. William and Harry's situations are NOT the same whatsoever.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I agree and I agree with the poster that stated the Queen may make an exception for Harry because his father only has the two boys and I still believe she'll do it for Harry because his child will be the first biracial royal and that is important. And she did it for William so she'll do it for Harry unless he and Meghan ask her not to.

It has been explained over and over why the Queen did what she did for William’s children-Harry’s children do not have the same situation at all. It is not a slight to Meghan or to the child(ren) if they wait until Charles is King to become HRH.

 

[JR76]

Questions about British Styles and Titles

It has been explained over and over why the Queen did what she did for William’s children-Harry’s children do not have the same situation at all. It is not a slight to Meghan or to the child(ren) if they wait until Charles is King to become HRH.

I agree, but the tabloids will have a field day about it if the baby isn’t a HRH from the start. Especially the US tabloids. Wendy Williams has already said that the reason the baby won’t get a royal title is because of the skin colour of the mother. You can say a lot of things about Wendy, but if there’s one thing she knows it’s how to cook up a storm and she has her finger on the pulse of what stories will break big in the tabloids.

 

[American Observer7]

his child is NOT the first biracial royal child.... and that has nothing to do with the HRH....

That is your opinion and I don't happen to share it!

I agree, but the tabloids will have a field day about it if the baby isn’t a HRH from the start. Especially the US tabloids. Wendy Williams has already said that the reason the baby won’t get a royal title is because of the skin colour of the mother. You can say a lot of things about Wendy, but if there’s one thing she knows it’s how to cook up a storm and she has her finger on the pulse of what stories will break big in the tabloids.

My point exactly! Thank you.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I’m genuinely surprised that race is still being brought up, I thought in 2018 we’d be past that here.

If Henry and Meghan don’t want their children to have HRHs then their wishes will be understood and accepted. I see that as being the ONLY reason The Queen won’t grant new LPs.

What I want to know is when Charles becomes King and children are grandchildren of a monarch is the HRH elevation automatic? I presume so inline with the 1917 LPs but Henry and Meghan can refuse again perhaps.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I agree, but the tabloids will have a field day about it if the baby isn’t a HRH from the start. Especially the US tabloids. Wendy Williams has already said that the reason the baby won’t get a royal title is because of the skin colour of the mother. You can say a lot of things about Wendy, but if there’s one thing she knows it’s how to cook up a storm and she has her finger on the pulse of what stories will break big in the tabloids.

American tabloids?
Since when is the organization of the Royal House and the titulature of it's members subject to tabloids?

And the argument is easily countered: the Queen's very own grandchildren Louise and James are no HRH's and as far as my eye can see, they are definitely not coloured, with that blowing away any possible absurd racial argument.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I’m genuinely surprised that race is still being brought up, I thought in 2018 we’d be past that here.

If Henry and Meghan don’t want their children to have HRHs then their wishes will be understood and accepted. I see that as being the ONLY reason The Queen won’t grant new LPs.

What I want to know is when Charles becomes King and children are grandchildren of a monarch is the HRH elevation automatic? I presume so inline with the 1917 LPs but Henry and Meghan can refuse again perhaps.

Yes, it is automatic when their grandfather becomes King, unless a new LP is issued

 

[Ish]

I agree, but the tabloids will have a field day about it if the baby isn’t a HRH from the start. Especially the US tabloids. Wendy Williams has already said that the reason the baby won’t get a royal title is because of the skin colour of the mother. You can say a lot of things about Wendy, but if there’s one thing she knows it’s how to cook up a storm and she has her finger on the pulse of what stories will break big in the tabloids.

I understand your point, but American tabloids should have no sway on whether or not British titles are given. If what American tabloids said were the rule of the day, then the Queen would have abdicated in favour of William long ago, Camilla would have been shipped off to rehab several times, her and Charles would have divorced, and Kate would have had no fewer than 7 sets of twin girls, all named Diana.

That is your opinion and I don't happen to share it!

This isn’t an opinion. It’s fact. Regardless of where you stand on the whole “Queen Charlotte was biracial” Theory (which is opinion), Meghan is hardly the first non-white person to marry into a European royal family in the modern era, nor even the first African-American to do so. The first AA was Angela Gisela Brown (wife of Prince Maximilian of Liechtenstein). Before them, Prince Joachim of Denmark married Alexandra Manley, a biracial woman of Chinese-European ancestry who grew up in Hong Kong. Both couples had children, meaning that Baby Sussex is not the first biracial Royal at all.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

That is your opinion and I don't happen to share it!




My point exactly! Thank you.

How can you be blind for the obvious facts? Prince Nicolaï and Prince Felix of Denmark have a partly Chinese mother. Prince Alfonso von und zu Liechtenstein has an Afro-American mother.

 

[American Observer7]

How can you be blind for the obvious facts? Prince Nicolaï and Prince Felix of Denmark have a partly Chinese mother. Prince Alfonso von und zu Liechtenstein has an Afro-American mother.

I am taking out other royals outside of the UK!! Come on!

 

[ACO]

American tabloids?
Since when is the organization of the Royal House and the titulature of it's members subject to tabloids?

And the argument is easily countered: the Queen's very own grandchildren Louise and James are no HRH's and as far as my eye can see, they are definitely not coloured, with that blowing away any possible absurd racial argument.

Let's avoid the use of the word "coloured" please and thank you.

 

[JR76]

I never said that the Windsors will let the tabloids set the agenda on this issue (although it has happened before) and rightly so.
The second the monarchy becomes a popularity contest it’s resting on very shaky ground as seen during the War of the Waleses.
I feel that many people fail to realise that popular or not the members of the royal family are there to support the monarch in his or her service to the nation and to preserve the monarchy. This outweighs the interests of any member who happens to be popular at the moment. As I wrote earlier popularity is a fickle thing and the Royal family is full of people who have had their time as the nations darling.
That said, I’m finally getting to my point, tabloid **** storms does impact the day to day life of the royals and the image of the Royal family and the institution in the short run. The Markle debacle this summer must’ve been hell for anyone involved. As pointed out by Richard Palmer, even if it isn’t of their own doing there’s always a risk that a scandal is what defines a member of the Royal family.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Let's avoid the use of the word "coloured" please and thank you.

I thought that was the point here otherwise Lisa Halaby, Toni Gardiner or Renate Kerkhoff would have been mentioned as well, being Caucasian ladies marrying Arab royals and giving birth to royals. But that was not the point in the discussion here. I understood the point here was: children of Harry without HRH = racism.

 

[Marlo]

I’m genuinely surprised that race is still being brought up, I thought in 2018 we’d be past that here.

Don't be naive, racism is very much still alive.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Let's avoid the use of the word "coloured" please and thank you.

The poster is not an American and does not have the same negative connotation of the word-this is an international forum.

 

[Marlo]

I agree, but the tabloids will have a field day about it if the baby isn’t a HRH from the start. Especially the US tabloids. Wendy Williams has already said that the reason the baby won’t get a royal title is because of the skin colour of the mother. You can say a lot of things about Wendy, but if there’s one thing she knows it’s how to cook up a storm and she has her finger on the pulse of what stories will break big in the tabloids.

Right. That's why I said their child not getting a royal title will send out the wrong message the other day.

 

[ACO]

I agree that the media can cause drama as pointed out with the "Well Beloved" incident that had media on both sides of the pond scrambling for answers. That literally only occurred because the US press reaction to the language thinking it was a "diss" to Meghan. So in that sense I agree with JR76.

Meghan's child not being Lady/Lord or HRH will be a talking point and unless they explain why (Sussex request) then media will come to their on conclusion and it won't be pretty. That is not saying they let the press dictate their decisions. That is ridiculous but they definitely do take the optics into consideration. They always have because they understand image is important.

The Sussex baby will be much discussed and everything will be analyze. No avoiding it. Hopefully it will get people to start to understand their rules and ways of doing things but I'm not holding my breath as we see with the protocol nonsense.

The poster is not an American and does not have the same bias against the word-this is an international forum.

Not a bias. It is offensive to me (and I am sure others). I understand it is an international board but not sure why a word that is clearly uncomfortable to a group should be accepted after it is brought to attention. That is just being respectful to each other. That isn't complicated. Sorry for the OT but I speak up when I am uncomfortable.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Don't be naive, racism is very much still alive.

Don't be rude.

Race has no bearing on this child getting a title or not, which is what my comment was referring to in this thread about royal titles.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I don’t think it is a problem to speak up- but Duc obviously did not understand why you said what you did. Explanations are useful and necessary sometimes.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I don’t think it is a problem to speak up- but Duc obviously did not understand why you said what you did. Explanations are useful and necessary sometimes.

I'm assuming my post got in the way of the one to which you are referring.

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

So if I'm understanding all of this correctly, the only working royal generation Charles wants to be slimmed down is that which will be under his reign. It is not a system set in stone and will revert back to including collateral grandchildren of the monarch once William ascends?

 

[Osipi]

Lets put it this way. If the tabloids stirring up tsunamis in teacups serve to affect the decisions by HM, The Queen on matters pertaining to the monarchy, we would be seeing Thomas Markle, Sr. being given a royal title and the Markle family with a royal Coat of Arms. There was enough stink about that to give air freshener companies a huge profit. Tabloids do what they do best. Raise a stink.

The monarchy, in and of itself, is blind to personalities, warts, character flaws, number of toes and fingers and sizes of noses. It deems what is best for the structure of the monarchy and its "Firm" to best serve the people. For this reason, it has endured for centuries and is still going strong and decisions made now will hopefully ensure that it keeps on going strong over the next generations of royals that come along. It does adapt to the changing times as we've seen but the structure of the monarchy remains cemented in its traditions, its roles and the way things are done. It serves to preserve rather than placate the sensibilities of the times.

Just my two cents worth here.

 

[VictoriaB]

Harry’s child will not be the first bi-racial child in the British Royal Family. As has been pointed out previously, Lady Davina Lewis’s husband is Maori therefore her two children were the first bi-racial children born into the British Royal Family.

 

[wyevale]

I do chuckle when Americans, often SO keen on 'equality', and from a country where Titles are 'verboten' have a hissy fit at the mere possibility that a child of [part] American descent might [just] be denied a 'Royal Highness'..