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Old 06-08-2016, 05:25 PM
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Small Town, United States
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Thanks for the replies.

Even if you never post anything you can contribute a lot to the forum by encouraging those who do.

And Lumutqueen is right. It's sometimes a good idea to wait ten minutes before replying. It's the same thing as in real life: If you reply in anger, you've already lost the discussion.
But I think we are all guilty of automatically going into defensive position when it's someone we like, eh?
Agreed! One of my first posts was sent off in haste, and I was quickly admonished. But this forum has a high level of discussion, which is one of the reasons i started reading it in the first place. There is a nice mixture of history, and also 'fun stuff' like fashion, etc. I hope we can keep that variety.

Forums like this become an online community, and I begin to feel that I 'know' other members. I even PM with one or two of them - a modern version of overseas pen pals!
Old 06-08-2016, 05:29 PM
Heir Presumptive
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,981
Muhler please don't leave I love your posts. If I don't reply or add its because I don't feel I can add anything it doesn't mean I didn't enjoy what you have posted. Like others I would love a like button

Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
Old 06-08-2016, 05:50 PM
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Poznan, Poland
Posts: 221
Hi there!

I'm guilty I often read here (all topics you mentioned), but I rarely comment. This topic opened my eyes. I'll comment more. Keep up the good job and thank you all for making this forums an amazing place!
Old 06-08-2016, 06:04 PM
rominet09's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LIEGE, Belgium
Posts: 5,503
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
This is going to be a long post, so please bear with me.
And I can only speak for myself, but perhaps I speak for others as well.

Right now the TRF is the best and most comprehensive royal forum on the Net. It's the most comprehensive covering of all aspects of royalty and all royals.
The troublemakers, nutcases and negative people are weeded out, making it a friendly and polite place, despite the occasional row.

However, we are losing posters.

I will divide the members of the TRF into these groups:
The news-hunters - Who provide almost instant coverage of the royals in the form of pictures, clips and articles.
The specialists - who keep track on fashion, jewellery, clothes, designers and so on.
The historians - nerds actually, who have an encyclopedic knowledge of genealogy, politics during the Hundred Year War and who no doubt know the names of Richard III's dogs!
The writers (which I believe I belong to) - who provide general background info on all sorts of subjects like politics, traditions, ceremonial as well as translations of interviews.
The moderators - who try and keep this zoo running as smoothly as possible.

And finally the most important members of the TRF: The readers.
That includes those who otherwise never post a link or write an article, because without the readers there is no TRF. The forum will die.
So your interaction and your feedback is vital.

I fully realize that by far the most come here to look at pictures and clips. And enjoy cute pictures and loving couples and the whole royal roadshow in all it's splendor. Not to mention fashion! - Without being particularly interested in what the royals actually do.
And that's great. That part of the TRF is alive and very well, despite competition from other sites. So no need to say more about that. Keep up the good work. And I'm not going to point my finger at why people come her. No reason is better than others.

However, some of us, myself included, would just as much like to know about the background and the history. Why are the royals dressed like that? What's the historical background for a tradition? Why is something considered controversial? Why are the royals attending an event? And so on and so on.
And this is where the historians and writers come in. We are the ones who provide background info, ceremonial details, history and answers to all the myriads of questions the readers may have.
And we (well I, can only speak for myself) thrive on feedback from the readers!
It's wonderful when someone share our interest and ask why there are three buttons instead of four on a uniform or what the political reasons for sending royal X to Timbuktu may be. Or when a particular dress was worn the last time. Or who is related to royal X's second cousin.
That's what keeps me/us going. It's encouraging.

It's really very simple: If I have spend two hours writing something and the only feedback I get is the sound of crickets... my conclusion is naturally: Oh, that wasn't interesting.
If it happens several times, the conclusion is: No one are interested. Probably because it's boring or I'm boring.
And that leads to the inevitable: Why bother? Why waste a lot of time writing something that no one are interested in?
Result: You stop writing. You stop writing translations and you start looking for a new place where people may be more interested.
(And that is where I am now. I still intend to be around and comment on posts, but my translations and summaries may be posted somewhere else).

This is a problem. We have lost several historians and writers over the years on that account. I can mention Chiara on the Japanese forum. She had a fantastic knowledge about the inner workings of the Japanese court and current Japanese politics. But now she's gone and so is her knowledge.
I know of another member who was asked very recently whether she would write an article about an otherwise interesting subject. She declined, she believed there was too little interest. - Can't blame her. I know the feeling.

That's where the readers come in.
I/we can't read your minds. So any kind of feedback matters. Also from those of you who otherwise never post anything.
Do something. Ask questions. We are happy to write about our favorite topics. - If for no other reason than to show off. Hit the thank you button. Post a comment. Tell us if it's boring or incomprehensible - we/I may be annoyed at first but we learn from it. Contradict us if you know better, we might learn something.

All of us, readers, posters and moderators depend on each other. If we loose too many of one group the TRF will fade away.

I hope this made sense. - And perhaps others have something to add?
Perfectly said ! Keep on posting please !
Old 06-08-2016, 06:09 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 6,034
What a fascinating discussion we are having here.

Here are a few things I've thought about recently:
When I joined the forums, I did it, in part to increase my social networking skills. Please, no one fall off your chairs in laughter. But I do think I've learned a lot here socially.
I've also learned MASSIVE amounts about a niche topic in which I have interest. I have no live friends who share my interest. So, those of you with whom I interact are important to me; I value your opinions, knowledge, generosity and humor. More than you can know.
I used to try to do things to bring stuff back on topic, or to reduce the vitriol. Lately there has been moderator input telling us to not do that. I think it's a mistake. If we can't comment on the discourse when it veers, then what does that have to say about our NEED TO get along. If only a moderator can comment on getting along, then it pretty much tells me or anyone else to do anything I want until I get caught. I just think it silly that I can't ask people to play nice and let everyone have an opinion. I think if we all hold that responsibility we will be more responsible.
I am a firm believer in the THANKS button. Those of you who have RCD. my thanks know that. Use the button not only when you agree, but when someone says something really well, even if you don't agree. Thank people for translations. Thank people for humor or openness or research or anything else you value on the forums. It costs nothing and it counts for something!
Regarding threads, there are threads and then there are threads in the Forums. Some threads are generally pretty brainy, Some regularly are visited by trolls hoping to stir pain. Some might as well be on Twitter. I think that's OK. I've learned the threads on which I tweet, on which I can share some depth and on which I ignore some members just as much as I hope other member's post.
It's how social Forums work.
Finally, I think few of you know this, but I was really ill last year and followed that up with my father getting ill in a complex way and then he died. It was a challenging year. As a result, I am a different person here on the Forums than I was two years ago. Life will do that to you - alter your viewpoint. I fully expect I am not the only person here going through life events. And for us, we have changed how we act on the forums for good life-related reasons.

Thanks again Muhler, for such a great topic for discourse.
I do value you all in very unique ways. Thanks for the many interactions over the years.
Old 06-08-2016, 06:24 PM
EllieCat's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Invercargill, New Zealand
Posts: 642
Thank you Muhler and Lumuqueen and all the rest of you who go to such a lot of trouble to keep us all informed. I never thought to use the 'thanks' button; i never even noticed it. I will from now on. I'm on the forum five times a week and thoroughly enjoy it, even the negative opinions have something to add.

But I do agree with the poster who said:
It does not help that it is relatively quiet in royalty land. No big weddings, few births etc. The generation of crown princes and princesses have moved slowly towards middle age and thus have become less interesting for a group of posters. The children are still too young to do much of interest. That will only happen in about 5 years from now.
This is very true indeed. It'a much more entertaining reading about Prince Harry's 'relationships' than reading about William and Catherine's contented marital life.

Another thing; i'd far rather read ANYTHING on this forum, than read the Australian/NZ 'women's weeklies' which make up crap about the Royal Family week in, week out; i rarely buy them and when i do I'm sorry; this week's one was about The Queen privately crowning Kate; it was utterly ridiculous and absolute tosh... whoops, going off topic.

Once again, thanks to everyone who contributes to this forum.
Old 06-08-2016, 06:33 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 16,107
No, you are actually off the mark, Marengo.

The "allowed to shine" was partly a figure of speech and partly something I genuinely mean.
Unless something dramatic is going on or there is big event going one, most news can easily wait a couple of hours to be posted. And since there are members here on TRF 24/7/365 and most at least have an idea where to look for news, it won't make a big difference if some of the more dominant posters, I being one, hold back a little.

The DRF forum is actually doing pretty well, not least thanks to some very active news-diggers. And the number of readers is pretty stable. I keep an eye on the thread statistics and how many are present at any given time. (I use statistics a lot in my real life).
There is however not much interaction going on. It's my clear impression that the vast majority of readers seem content with looking at the pics and clips and move on without commenting. It's even more so when it comes to text. As a result most of the interaction there is, is between the posters and that is a pity.
It would be nice with more interaction with the readers. And as I mentioned before, it encourages the posters, because it means someone besides the usual crowd is interested in what is being posted.

That is not just happening in the DRF thread. It's general for most royal topics IMO. The threads here on TRF that are most active are those that are more or less speculative. Like pregnancies, relationships, divorces etc. And they often tend to end in a row, because they are speculative.
There is also very little focus these days on what and why the royals do when they do something.
I have often asked and it's really interesting to get a local view on what is happening. That's the huge advantage this forum has. Members who live in the individual countries and who know first hand what is going on. Imagine if we had to rely on Daily Mail, Women's Weekly or Bunte!

You mentioned the Swedish royals. They get a lot of attention these days, with marriages and children. It can hardly get any better! - There has however also been quite a lot of negative attention in the SRF thread mind you!
And I will single out one super poster in the SRF thread, LadyFinn. When I visit the SRF thread it's far from unusual to see four or five posts in a row by LadyFinn with very few other posts. And you have to look long and hard to find the words: "Thank you, LadyFinn".
Now, I will not and cannot speak on behalf of LadyFinn, if she's happy I'm happy, but I would sure hate to loose her!

And she is not alone, there are many lone posters in quite a few threads who at times must feel pretty lonely.
One thread that has suffered from posters leaving is the NRF thread. It's pretty difficult nowadays to get hold on someone who actually knows what is going on in Norway IMO.

Okay, the TRF is huge! Over the years I don't think I have visited more than 10 % of the threads - at best. So there are many posters I have never thanked or even noticed. Sorry about that. I will if and when I ever get to your thread.
Because as MidwestMom pointed out the TRF is a community, where many of us have found online friends. And that is a big advantage this forum has over similar fora elsewhere.
But in order for a community to work, there has to be interaction and feedback.

Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
May I deduct that by allowing others to 'shine', that means that you are shining at the moment, Muhler? Perhaps you are not as gloomy as you think after all . I am not sure it is a good idea to withhold information and wait for others to post though. If we want people to 'shine' people must feel free to voice their opinion and make their case, which sadly is a problem in Missy's case and perhaps with others.

I still think you are too gloomy about TRF though. We are one of the larger online royal resources and one of the few surviving royalty forums. The forum has seen a small decrease in activity these last years, which is natural considering the rapid changes in (royal) social media. All forums have been affected by it, some have even disappeared. Perhaps your main turf - the Danish forum- has seen a significant decrease in activity, more than other areas. The interest in the crown princess may have decreased compared to the hype around HRH in earlier years. Middle age perhaps isn't the most exiting time. The Swedish forum f.e. has seen a significant increase in traffic these last years, probably due to engagements, weddings, babies and baptisms. The same goes for Britain. This decrease in interest may have led to a decrease in replies and compliments. Or do you think there may be another reason why people are less vocal in the Danish part of the forum?
Old 06-08-2016, 06:46 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Member - in Memoriam
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 17,267
I'm going to echo the sentiments of many other posters here and beg, plead, whine, cajole (and maybe a few other verbs including tickle) Muhler to pretty please with a cherry on top to keep on sharing his wonderful sense of eloquence and in depth thoughts on many different subjects. Muhler is one of those posters I wonder where he's gotten off to if I've not seen his posts in a while. It is because of Muhler's in depth translations of the recent documentaries about the Danish residences that sparked a newfound interest in the Danish royal family and puts Queen Daisy on my admiration society list.

When I first came to TRF, I spent months just reading past posts in threads as, to be honest, I knew very little about things. When I did start posting, there were members that were really patient with me and took the time to explain where I'd made an error and guided me to explore and learn and its been a happy adventure that has lasted almost 8 years now.

What I do like most about TRF is that we're encouraged to voice our opinions but those opinions should have basis in facts that we can provide sources for. I do have a problem with threads that just seem to be posts that link to information elsewhere such as the Daily Mail and Twitter. To me, that isn't posting. It isn't sharing thoughts. Anyone can troll the websites, copy and paste a link and then flood the different threads with them. What I would like to see changed is that posting a link elsewhere is acceptable if it is included in a post where someone actually says something about what they're linking to and why.

TRF is perhaps one of the best archives of all things past and present pertaining to royalty. Some threads I've noticed here that remain active date back to 2004-2005 and maybe, IIRC, 2003. That's a long time and gives credence to the integrity of TRF. Many, many times I've searched for information on a topic only to be directed to somewhere here at TRF.

Its been a grand adventure being here and I enjoy the forums, the people and the learning experiences.
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Old 06-08-2016, 09:24 PM
Kruununprinsessa's Avatar
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Salt Lake City, United States
Posts: 35
I'll be honest: I'm a reader. In fact, I've been dipping in and out of the forum and royalty-Twitter-sphere for awhile now. At 23 years old, I'm admittedly much more active with the latter.

The reason I love TRF & always seem to come back is because there is such a well-documented wealth of knowledge from 2002 (seems like such a long time ago to me!). You want to know what Crown Prince Haakon was up to in September of 2003? There's a thread for that. You wondered which shoes Queen Mathilde wore to that thing that one time? There's a thread for that. You want to daydream about what you'd name your potential royal children if your prince finally comes knocking? There's a thread for that. It's absolutely wonderful in order to get "caught up" so to speak, as I didn't start royal watching until 2010.

I will say, however, it can be difficult to have the confidence to put something out there, particularly a question about something I may not understand on a very long thread. If a thread is 257 pages long and I only have 20 minutes between meetings but this question is in my head, I'm obviously not going to be able to read all 257 pages to see if my question was answered previously. Then there's somebody commenting below me, saying, "Why didn't you just read that on page 13?"

Of course this isn't *always* the case, and of course there are exceptions, and this becomes easier to avoid with the "search" feature (aka my BFF). But as someone who internalizes everything (ugh!), it's easy to become discouraged and think that people are judging you for not taking the time to read all 257 pages.

Again, I must say, most of my experiences here have been positive. This situation is the exception, not the rule.

And Muhler, I must say, you're my fave. I come back & back & back to the DRF forums just for your insight!!
Old 06-08-2016, 10:43 PM
MARG's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 10,407
I have to admit I was a long-time lurker and if you are shy it's easy not to take the logical path and start posting. But, once you start it's fun to be part of something so big and truly international.

I have learnt so much about all sorts of "all things royal" and a lot of other things besides. For the most part, it's an enjoyable pastime sharing news, views, opinions and let's not forget the pretty pictures.

My favourite thing is reading posts that are witty, naughty and even humorous about topics that are quite serious. The ability to write that way, with such irreverence, is a gift, it engages the brain and exercises the 'funny-bone' and, as we all know, laughter really is the best medicine, sending all those happy little endorphins racing around our body's and minds.

For the next several weeks I will mostly be relegated to using the "Thanks" button as I fell and did serious mischief to my dominant (right) hand and if this one-handed post is anything to go by, there are not enough hours in the day for more.
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
Old 06-09-2016, 12:05 AM
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Bay Area, United States
Posts: 6,339
As a new member (joined late January), I mostly use the Thanks button and generally stay within the royal subforums I'm interested in: Luxembourg, Japan, and a bit of Sweden. I'm sad to learn Chiara no longer posts. My interest in royalty waxed and waned but I remember visiting TRF years ago and her posts are excellent.

I admit to lurking in the Diana, Monaco, and Cambridge forums because they can get contentious.

TRF is the best place for reliable information, along with specialized blogs such as Luxarazzi, RoyalHats, Imperial Family of Japan, and the Order of Splendor. I very much appreciate everyone's input and knowledge sharing.
Old 06-09-2016, 12:09 AM
LadyFinn's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Southwest, Finland
Posts: 34,307
Thank you for your great posts in this thread, Muhler, and for your posts at the forum.
We people are here at the forum for different reasons. We are interested in royals for different reasons. We are interested in different things at royals. That is the richness of this forum.
I'm mostly interested in swedish royals, maybe because we Finns don't have our own royal family and we have always felt the swedish royals as partly our royals too. And in swedish royals, I'm mostly interested in the work they do, what they do for the people of Sweden. What they say at their official speeches, how often they give speeches. What kind of people they meet at their work. Why they have chosen a certain charity to work with. How their interests change when they get older. How they keep up the traditions of the swedish monarchy. How their work is seen at the swedish press and by swedish people. Why should there be monarchy in Sweden in the future too?
And as those things are my main interest, I tell about them at the forum. I understand that many people are not interested at the same things at all. That's fine. I have always seen as a strength of this forum that here people write so much great information about different things - about genealogy, history, traditions, work, fashion, cultures ... This forum has made me interested about royal jewellery, which I wasn't at first interested at all. I respect everyone's interests and opinions and have learned so much here. So people, keep on going posting in the future too.
And as a person who has not registered to any social media at all, I feel uncomfortable with the idea of "like" button here. I'm a fan of the "Thanks" button and have used it, but I should use it more and tell at my thanks what I like at the post.
Old 06-09-2016, 09:41 AM
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 51
I would love to see a thank you button on the app. I admit I'm a follower, and have learnt so much by following. There is no quick way for me to show my appreciation of the time and effort and knowledge put in by Muhler and others. A bit lazy of me, I know, wanting an instant solution. And perhaps a bit thoughtless, too, not realising how much such feedback would mean.
Old 06-09-2016, 10:02 AM
MarNoe's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Utah, United States
Posts: 740
Interesting discussion.

I, for one, use TRF for my royalty news. Yes, I am on FB, but when I see a single post there on something that interests me I come here to get more information. I am NOT on Twitter, Instagram, etc, or any other of these type of sites. At my age I don't take kindly to them.

And I agree there should be a "Like" option. Also, on a personal note, I have been on TRF for quite a while now but am unable to post "emoticons" or "emojis", whatever you call them, when I make a post like this. When I reply to a post they appear but not when I post. I sure would like it if someone could make this available to me.

All I can add to this is - keep up the good work. I for one will be here.
Old 06-09-2016, 10:07 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Somewhere on the East Coast., United States
Posts: 739
I am a reader/lurker more so than a contributor as I don't know enough to contribute. When someone like Muhler, whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for, posts a long yet informative post, I don't reply because I have nothing to add. It is my understanding that per forum rules posts should contribute to the conversation and since I don't have anything to contribute, I don't typically post.
Old 06-09-2016, 04:25 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Scottsdale, United States
Posts: 4

Greetings Muhler and all! Excuse me for not introducing myself on the Hello newcomer forum first. Your appeal for posters prompted me to finally join after lurking for years. Your postings over the years Muhler, have kept me coming back again and again...whether they be comments on history, uniforms, language idioms, article translations, Danish perspective, opinions, humor, food etc....all done with flair, care, grace, excellent manners and providing a much needed laugh at the end of the day!
In fact, I am certain that TRF plants more hidden seeds and serves a greater breadth of curiosity seekers, encourages diplomacy, and even tourism than anyone realizes. My husband and I took a tour of Scandinavia a few summers ago and because of Muhler..we found ourselves scanning the crowd for the face of the ubiquitous Ulrik Ulriksen!!
"Never be haughty to the humble or humble to the haughty."
Old 06-09-2016, 04:56 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 16,107
Congratulations on your first post, Valkyrie and welcome to TRF.

Thank you for your warm posts Valkyrie and others. It is very much appreciated.
You can do a lot to encourage me and many, many others with very little.
A question, a smiley, hitting the thank you button - and I will add that in most cases I don't even write anything when hitting that button, unless I have something particular to say. It's simply a general thank you for a good post, good job or simply to expressing agreement. And it takes three seconds of my life.

And don't hesitate to post. Many major posters today started out as shy, insecure posters and eventually gained confidence and are now treasured members of TRF.

There was something Kruununprinsessa wrote that is very much worth taking up here. Especially in regards to new or hesitant posters.
That a question is answered in a dismissive and impatient manner: "Read the (271) posts in this thread"!
Come on!
Not all here are even fluent in English and even those who are do not necessarily have time to go through an entire thread. If you have time just answer the question or "you'll find the answer in post ###, or about twelve posts back". - Because next week you might be in the same situation in another thread.
And here the readers can really help. A reader can answer that question or refer to a particular post.

There are also those who get irritated if someone in a thread about an event that is about to happen, ask: "Any pictures yet"? - No, because no pictures have been released yet. Otherwise they would up.
Easy now. Someone is impatient, big deal. Just ignore it. It's too trivial to be annoyed over, isn't it?
Old 06-09-2016, 05:12 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 6,034
As a non-app user of the Forums, I now get it that App users lack the Thanks button.
I would guess that App users tend to post shorter messages, so that explains a lot in terms of length of message.
So, now a couple of questions...
Do app users have a private message link? Because the thanks button just creates a private message tagged to a post.
Do App users see that they have messages (on the App) ? There is the option of turning on an email notification when you get a private message.

As to all the info that resides in threads, is there a rating option for posts? Or a bookmark option? So that, for example, when people post a link to a source that explains (for example) the difference between the uniforms of the Irish Guards, Welsh Guards and Scots Guards we can somehow make that post with high utility more visible? I know I have posted that link, but I would bet a big wad of cash that I could not locate it quickly here in the Forums. And I want to find it, or refer others to it several times a year. I am happy to answer people's questions when I can easily find what they are looking for. Just saying.
Old 06-09-2016, 10:53 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 4,135
Please do not stop posting, Muhler. I enjoy your informative posts as well as the chatty ones. You have a mischievous sense of humour that comes through in your writing and makes the forum a friendlier and more enjoyable place.
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
Old 06-09-2016, 11:51 PM
moby's Avatar
Serene Highness
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,242
Interesting thread, and I feel, Muhler, like you're directly addressing forum members like me. This is a good a time as any to thank all of you who have made these forums a success, because that really is what it is--a huge success and a survivor in the forums format. See my join date, I have been a member of this place longer than I've been on Facebook. When I first joined I was a teenager fascinated by the Casiraghis but also a History major. I have always been mostly a lurker but for as long as my interest in the subject matter is alive, I will continue to visit this site.

The combination of fluff and substance in TRF, along with the knowledge and dedication of its active members in posting fresh content on an almost daily basis is what will keep this site up longer than any other forum on royals. I'm really actually pretty amazed by how long TRF has been up. At this point, it's like my favorite never-ending TV soap except that all the characters are real. I think that for as long as royals exist and get married and give birth and look fantastic, TRF will continue to attract members and it will survive for as long as there are members willing to continue volunteering to maintain this place. Really, kudos to all of you for keeping TRF alive and well for all these years.
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