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  #181  
Old 08-23-2019, 02:49 AM
lucien's Avatar
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Originally Posted by Huddo View Post
Do Kings and Queens out rank an elected president?
A Head of State is a Head of State.Crowned or elected....Allthough in some cases the Crown is far above a president....
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  #182  
Old 02-23-2020, 05:36 PM
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Is there any other European monarchy besides the UK and Denmark where holders of hereditary titles of nobility or kinighthoodsvate still accorded precedence in official public acts ?

It looks like in other monarchies like Belgium , Spain and Sweden , precedence is still accorded to members of the Royal House or the Royal Family ( usually outranking all other civil, military and ecclesiastical authorities) , bu there is no official precedence nowadays for the nobility or the knighthood. Why ?
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  #183  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Is there any other European monarchy besides the UK and Denmark where holders of hereditary titles of nobility or kinighthoodsvate still accorded precedence in official public acts ?

It looks like in other monarchies like Belgium , Spain and Sweden , precedence is still accorded to members of the Royal House or the Royal Family ( usually outranking all other civil, military and ecclesiastical authorities) , bu there is no official precedence nowadays for the nobility or the knighthood. Why ?
The precedence in Belgium still lists the princes and dukes of the Salon Bleu on 41 which is a downfall from the first 10 it used to be: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijs...in_Belgi%C3%AB
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  #184  
Old 02-24-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The precedence in Belgium still lists the princes and dukes of the Salon Bleu on 41 which is a downfall from the first 10 it used to be: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijs...in_Belgi%C3%AB
Does "princes of the royal blood" only mean princes or also princesses? And is there also a ranking between this group?
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  #185  
Old 02-24-2020, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The precedence in Belgium still lists the princes and dukes of the Salon Bleu on 41 which is a downfall from the first 10 it used to be: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijs...in_Belgi%C3%AB

Thanks, Duc. Yes, I noticed that after my initial post. Only the heads of families with princely or ducal rank (HSH/HH) are listed in the Belgian order of precedence, but ordinary members of the Belgian nobility (counts, barons, jonkheers, etc.) are not.


I was making a contrast with the UK where all peers, sons and daughters of peers, sons of sons of peers, baronets, knights, non-knight members of the orders of chilvary, and sons of baronets and knights are accorded some kind of precedence.



Order of Precedence in England and Wales (source: Heraldica.org)


https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...edence.htm#MEN



Spain used to be like the UK before the proclamation of the Second Republic. In the restored Spanish monarchy, however, under the royal decrees 2099/1983 and 470/2014, precedence is of course still accorded to the King and Queen, the Prince or Princess of Asturias, the Infantes or Infantas of Spain, the King emeritus and the Queen emerita, but no precedence is noted for children or spouses of infantes/infantas, grandees of Spain and other non-grandee holders of titles of nobility, or knights of the orders of the Golden Fleece, Charles III, Isabella the Catholic, Alphonse X, Civil Merit, and so on.



Note that the latter are still distingushed by honorifics though. For example, children of infantes, grandees of Spain (including their spouses and firstborns), and knights with collar or knights grand cross of the Spanish orders are Excelencia/ Excelentísimo(a) Señor(a). Holders of titles of nobility without an attached grandeeship (including their spouses and firstborns) , members of the order of Charles III at any rank below Grand Cross, and commanders with star (roughly equivalent to Knight Commander in the UK) of any other Spanish order are Ilustrísimo(a) Señor(a). Still, it is a shame that they no longer have precedence in official events like their British counterparts.


Order of precedence in Spain


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanis..._of_precedence


Reference: https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-1983-21534



Denmark, like the UK, also has a nicely structured order of precedence which includes, besides the Royal Family, former members of the Royal Family, illegitimate descendants of Kings, knights and commanders of the orders of the Elephant and Dannebrog, counts, barons, etc. , as it should be done in a proper, traditional monarchy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish..._of_precedence
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  #186  
Old 02-24-2020, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Does "princes of the royal blood" only mean princes or also princesses? And is there also a ranking between this group?
The heads of the princely and ducal families around 41 and then around 64 the other members of these families.

Also the term "the Salon Bleu" is no longer used. The difference with "normal" nobility is that these families are considered equal to "formerly Sovereign Houses".

It is very theoretical anyway. The last time the Salon Bleu was strictly interpret was at the grand wedding of King Baudouin and Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón. Then the princes and dukes of the Salon Bleu ranked directly after the royal family, foreign royal guests and the cardinals ("princes of the Church").

But after the wedding, the ascetic King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola ended the tradition of Court Balls and débutes (the Salon Bleu was a specific reception room exclusively for the princes and dukes, to mingle with the royal family) the Salon Bleu itself became in disuse.

Nowadays even the term "the princes and dukes of the Salon Bleu" is no longer used.

The Salon Bleu was build by King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg. It was a yellow salon with marble pillars. Under King Léopold II blue ameublement was placed in the salon, giving the name "the blue salon". Now it is a white salon anyway, in dire need of restoration: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3MQIvqnSh...8/s1600/01.jpg
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  #187  
Old 02-24-2020, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Does "princes of the royal blood" only mean princes or also princesses? And is there also a ranking between this group?
I have often seen "princes" meaning "princes and princesses" in Dutch. In 2020, it would be absurd if Princes Laurent, Gabriel, Amedeo, etc. would be entitled to a high rank in the order of precedence while Princess Astrid would rank below even the heads of non-royal princely and ducal families.

In the official agenda on monarchie.be, Princess Astrid's name precedes Prince Laurent's when they are in attendance at the same event.
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  #188  
Old 10-15-2021, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
A Head of State is a Head of State.Crowned or elected....

Diplomatically, yes, and, in terms of precedence in events where both monarchs and presidents are in attendance, I guess that is true too.

However, and to be honest, do you feel that monarchs treat other monarchs differently than other Heads of State, especially presidents of republics?

What I mean is that, in practice, especially in Europe, we see that, with a few exceptions, monarchs get preferential treatment for example in invitations for enthronements/coronations, and royal jubilees, birthdays, weddings, even funerals. And two European monarchs in particular, the Queen of the United Kingdom and the King of Spain, award different orders to monarchs and presidents, reserving the higher and more prestigious/exclusive ones to the former.

If the answer to the question is indeed “Yes”, what does that mean and how do you feel about it? Do monarchs see other monarchs as “equals” and elected presidents not so much?
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  #189  
Old 10-15-2021, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Diplomatically, yes, and, in terms of precedence in events where both monarchs and presidents are in attendance, I guess that is true too.

However, and to be honest, do you feel that monarchs treat other monarchs differently than other Heads of State, especially presidents of republics?

What I mean is that, in practice, especially in Europe, we see that, with a few exceptions, monarchs get preferential treatment for example in invitations for enthronements/coronations, and royal jubilees, birthdays, weddings, even funerals. And two European monarchs in particular, the Queen of the United Kingdom and the King of Spain, award different orders to monarchs and presidents, reserving the higher and more prestigious/exclusive ones to the former.

If the answer to the question is indeed “Yes”, what does that mean and how do you feel about it? Do monarchs see other monarchs as “equals” and elected presidents not so much?

It is also often optics: royals soon are seated first row when the protocol is strictly the anciennity of office. Imagine the Benelux-countries and their two neighbours coming together, it is already royals front row, looking like giving them preference:

1. Henri of Luxembourg
2. Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands
3. Philippe of Belgium
4. Frank-Walter Steinmeier of Germany
5. Emanuel Macron of France

Even "young" Kings as WA, Philippe and Felipe already outrank most presidents in anciennity because they are already longer than two presidential terms on the throne. When we see King Felipe at any Ibero-American Summit he looks like to receive preferential treatment, but he simply already is the doyen of most Ibero-American heads-of-state.
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