Abdications

[Curryong]

I don't have any doubt in the world that Charles will be King Charles III in his turn and could well reign for quite a number of years when you look at the ages of several recent Windsors, including his own parents. There's no way, after waiting to reign for all his adult life, that Prince Charles would opt to hand over to his son straight away. That would happen only if he was incapacitated, just like the present Queen.

 

[Alison H]

If the Queen can do an excellent job of reigning in her 90s, which she does, there's no reason why Prince Charles can't do an excellent job of reigning in his 70s ... and hopefully his 80s and 90s too.


Unless there are health reasons, which hopefully won't happen, Charles won't just step aside and become the King Who Never Was, after being heir to the throne all these years, and I think William would prefer not to become king until his children are older.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Speaking of abdications, what's the chance that Prince Charles would abdicate in favour of his son, William?

In the British Royal Family fandom, there's been a debate over that considering that the Queen might get to live for another five years and by the time Prince Charles would ascend to the throne, he'd be way older than he already is.

The Prince of Wales can not abdicate from a position he is not in. With other words: he needs to be King himself, to abdicate the kingship.

Du moment the Queen passes away, the Prince of Wales is the lawful King, no matter his age.

In 1901 the almost 60-years old Prince of Wales became King Edward VII. For the UK general life expectancy of 1901, he was very old. He nevertheless became King and reigned for almost a decade (which is longer than two USA presidential terms, to make a comparison).

 

[Marengo]

In 1932 King Albert I of the Belgians wrote that he would soon abdicate in favor of his son Leopold (III) and that he would retreat into to his villa Haslihorn in Switzerland. He added that a retired priest should not remain in the parish. His early death sadly prevented this.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In 1932 King Albert I of the Belgians wrote that he would soon abdicate in favor of his son Leopold (III) and that he would retreat into to his villa Haslihorn in Switzerland. He added that a retired priest should not remain in the parish. His early death sadly prevented this.

That would hard to imagine: Queen Wilhelmina, Grand-Duchess Charlotte, Queen Juliana, Grand-Duke Jean, Queen Beatrix, King Albert, King Juan Carlos, Pope Benedictus XVI, Emperor Akihito, all moving to a foreign country. I think the current practice of keeping a low profile works well.

 

[Countessmeout]

Speaking of abdications, what's the chance that Prince Charles would abdicate in favour of his son, William?

In the British Royal Family fandom, there's been a debate over that considering that the Queen might get to live for another five years and by the time Prince Charles would ascend to the throne, he'd be way older than he already is.

If the queen dies in five years, Charles would only be 76 going on 77. There is no reason to believe he wont live well into his 90's like both of his parents, and his grandmother lived over 100. He would have a good 20 years to reign before he died. One cant argue that Charles cant be a good ruler in his 90's, considering his mother and the role she still serves.

Prince William as the new POW would just step up and do more of the travel and duties like his father currently does. That's the natural way of things in the BRF.

 

[Marengo]

That would hard to imagine: Queen Wilhelmina, Grand-Duchess Charlotte, Queen Juliana, Grand-Duke Jean, Queen Beatrix, King Albert, King Juan Carlos, Pope Benedictus XVI, Emperor Akihito, all moving to a foreign country. I think the current practice of keeping a low profile works well.

It does but perhaps it would not have worked in 1932, when Albert I wrote the letter. The Duke of Windsor obviously settled abroad while Queen Wilhelmina retreated to the background and considered herself 'dead'. She was seldom seen in public - supposedly somewhat inspired by Charles V. Leopold III's long shadow and overbearing presence during the early years of his son's reign were not a great help to the monarchy. The more recent examples you mention show indeed that it does not have to be a problem.

 

[Jacknch]

Please note that several posts have been moved to the https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/questions-about-british-styles-and-titles-258.html thread.

 

[Somebody]

If Carl Gustaf would consider abdication; 2023 might be a good year to do so, he will be 77 year of age, can celebrate 50 years on the throne (on September 15) and probably at that same day hand over the throne to the new Queen Victoria (46) and prince (consort) Daniel (who turns 50 that day) with crown princess Estelle (11) and prince Oscar (7).

 

[Somebody]

Continuing the discussion about abdication that started in the Future of the Danish monarchy thread.

Abdication does not mean: disappear altogether. Princess Beatrix, Grand-Duke Jean and Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte, King Albert and Queen Paola, King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofía, all of them are (or were) visible.

The idea should be that an abdication can be a benefit for the monarchy. No one can deny that a King Felipe or a King Philippe have brought a new spark of energy into their monarchies. In this era of ever advancing ages, an abdication should not be seen as "negative'.

The title of an abdicated King is not always a free choice. In my country the Royal House Act enforces that the King who has abdicated reverts to the titulature held before the kingship.

I respectfully disagree somewhat: now you bring up the Pope, imagibe that the late Emeritus still was the reigning Pope in all thse years of declining health, in the end nearly blind.

The message can also be: being a King means nothing, after all an ailing gerontocrat can that job.

All the old kings & queens of today should really retired and let the younger generations of crown princes in this case CP's Haakon (Norway) & Frederik (Denmark) to become kings of their countries, like the ones from The Netherlands, Belgium & Spain, that is my opinion.

why? I suppose you would wish for Charles who has just become King, to abdicate as well?

The King seems to be in excellent health but imagine he matches his mother's stamina and will continue to live until nearly 100 years of age: the best and the most promising years of the Prince and Princess of Wales would then calmly pass by, until they, as sixty-something yearls olds, finally become King and Queen, with a young and fit George waiting for his turn.

Imagine that the ailing Emperor Akihito, or the barely mobile King Juan Carlos, or the almost deaf King Albert II, or the almost blind Pope Benedict XVI have not resigned.

We would not have seen the new energy, the rejuvenation, which was brought by Philippe & Mathilde or Felipe & Letizia, etcc. now for almost 10 years...

I wish Queen Margarethe many, many happy years. Be it as reigning Queen, or in another role.

It is not a question of thinking that wheelchairs or crutches are derogatory. Many countries have compulsory retirement ages for example for judges, university professors, teachers, or civil servants, just to name a few public workers. If society does not think it is appropriate for a person to be teaching or presiding over a court when he or she is over 75, shouldn't a similar standard be applied to the Head of State?

Personally I am not in favor of a rigid abdication age as there are examples of people in their 80s who are capable of performing the role of Head of State such as President Biden or Queen Elizabeth II when she was that age. However, when aging starts to compromise one's ability to do the job fully, then I think the Head of State, especially monarchs, who, by definition, have an unlimited term of office, should be sensible enough to step down for the good of the country.

Being a Constitutional Monarch means being your countrie's top diplomat, and to be that it's preferable that you've grown wise and thoughtful. And can give good advice to the youngsters in the Government. ?
Margarethe has been there, done that, she knows the world, just like her collegues in the Scandinavian countries. There is nothing wrong with their brain capacity.
Juan Carlos and Albert abdicated because of the scandals they created, not because they got old. Only Beatrix retired, but then that's a tradition in the NL.

Don't forget Jean: he also abdicated, just like his mother did before him - and Henri will surely abdicate as well (sooner rather than later if Maria Teresa is to be believed; it seems she cannot wait for that time to come).

Each tradition has to 'start' at some point. In the Netherlands, it was queen Wilhelmina... and given that she had reigned from a very young age, she didn't need to worry about a short reign either. So, especially those that ascended the throne at a young age (in Scandinavia that would be both Margrethe and Carl Gustav) are probably at a better position to abdicate as they still have had more than enough time to leave their mark. It would be much harder for someone who ascended the throne when much older as that would mean a short reign (just a 'footnote' in the history of their country - although being the first to abdicate might ensure their place in the history books ) - to ensure that the next generation(s) will reign when in their prime years.

Frederik, Haakon and Victoria are in the prime of their life. For me it is a sort of waste if they have to wait a dozen of years or more. The days that being a King was a sort of divine right are long gone.

And abdications are by no means a modernity. In her own autobiography Lonely, but not alone Queen Wilhelmina wrote that she felt very much inspired by the solemn abdication in front of the assembled States-General of the Netherlands in Brussels (1555) of Charles V of Habsburg, Holy Roman Emperor, King of Spain, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy.

Charles V concluded his Abdication Address by mentioning his voyages: ten to the Netherlands, nine to German lands, seven to Spain, seven to Italy, four to France, two to England, and two to North Africa. His last public words were, "My life has been one long journey."

This to underline that abdications are no dishonours but can be a wise and rational decisions indeed.

"Short reign" doesn't necessarily equate to footnote. Neither Henry V nor Edward VII made it to a decade, and British history certainly hasn't forgotten either of them. It's what you do with the time you have while you're there that counts.

As there isn't much in the way of agreement between the pro-abdication and pro-reign camps, I don't know why posters keep making the same arguments over and over again for both sides coming from different cultural traditions or rationalizations. No one is getting convinced. Each royal family does things differently and doesn't necessarily need to change.

I wouldn't necessarily think that people in their 40/50s are in their prime. Physically yes, but they still have a long way to go towards experience and wisdom. I think we have seen some examples of younger monarchs making not so wise decisions in their private lives an older one wouldn't make.
I can only speak for my country of course, but I don't want to see Victoria on the throne just yet.

In terms of their prime: physically, that definitely wouldn't be people in their 40s/50s but more likely in their 20s/30s. In the corporate world, you would normally see that senior management includes primarily people in their (late) 40s and 50s - so, that seems to be an age in which you've sufficient experience as well as sufficient brainpower to take on such a responsibility.

And while I would hope that most people further mature with age, they also typically slow-down and are less flexible (more stubborn), for example, king Juan Carlos seemed to make much better decisions when in his 40s than in his 70s.

 

[Silverpot]

There are a few reasons for Victoria to not step up in a near future, one is that her children are still too young. At least Estelle needs to have come of age before she loses her mother to the State.


I hope our King lasts for another 10 years.

 

[Friedrich Karl II]

There are a few reasons for Victoria to not step up in a near future, one is that her children are still too young. At least Estelle needs to have come of age before she loses her mother to the State.


I hope our King lasts for another 10 years.

IIRC one of major reason why CG refuses from abdicate is just that Victoria could spend time with her children. But I am not sure if this is true or is that just one theory.


In other hand abdication of Swedish monarch is extremely rare. But it is rare in many other monarchies too. I think that only Dutch monarchs have abdicated pretty often when they have became old and their heir are ready to take response on state issues.

 

[Stefan]

There are a few reasons for Victoria to not step up in a near future, one is that her children are still too young. At least Estelle needs to have come of age before she loses her mother to the State.


I hope our King lasts for another 10 years.

Actually, the Princess of Orange was the same age as Estelle is now and the Princess of Asturias was only 8 years old. But i also hope that King Carl Gustaf remains on the Throne.

 

[Stefan]

In other hand abdication of Swedish monarch is extremely rare. But it is rare in many other monarchies too. I think that only Dutch monarchs have abdicated pretty often when they have became old and their heir are ready to take response on state issues.

For now abdication has become a tradition in the Netherlands where three successive monarchs have abdicated and in Luxembourg with the monarchs. Actually in Luxembourg there have also been three abdications, but one was because of political reasons

 

[Somebody]

IIRC one of major reason why CG refuses from abdicate is just that Victoria could spend time with her children. But I am not sure if this is true or is that just one theory.


In other hand abdication of Swedish monarch is extremely rare. But it is rare in many other monarchies too. I think that only Dutch monarchs have abdicated pretty often when they have became old and their heir are ready to take response on state issues.

The last three monarchs of Luxembourg abdicated as well (and they've had only 6 since they were no longer tied to the Netherlands - so, only the first two did NOT abdicate (as Henri is still the reigning GD). Adolph ascended the throne at the age of 73 (because Willem III was succeeded by Wilhelmina); his son Guillaume died at the age of 59, so before 'abdication age'). Moreover, the first to abdicate did so because of unpopularity, however, her younger sister did not let that fact deter her from also abdicating 45 years later; and in doing so, she paved the way for her son Jean to do likewise.

 

[Blog Real]

I believe the next monarch to abdicate will be Grand Duke Henri. Maybe in 5 or 10 years.
In 2021 the Grand Duke said: ""That day will come, of course, but certainly not the time yet".

https://paperjam.lu/article/abdiquer-n-est-pas-a-ordre-jou

 

[Somebody]

I believe the next monarch to abdicate will be Grand Duke Henri. Maybe in 5 or 10 years.
In 2021 the Grand Duke said: ""That day will come, of course, but certainly not the time yet".

https://paperjam.lu/article/abdiquer-n-est-pas-a-ordre-jou

In 2020 Maria Teresa indicated in an interview (she gave in Biarritz where she has been living/spending most of the time over the last few years) that Henri would have to be in Luxembourg for work for a few more years. So, my guess is that he will abdicate rather sooner than later: probably in 2025 when he celebrates his 70th birthday and silver anniversary - but at the latest in 2030 when he celebrates his 75th birthday and 30 years on the throne... Stephanie's pregnancy might have pushed his plans for abdication probably a few more years out into the future.

 

[Mbruno]

Who knows ... maybe cousin Carl Gustav will feel inspired and follow her example. Lucky Sweden: a queen-in-waiting and a crown princess-in-waiting. We'll just have to endure until then!

Carl Gustav is younger and apparently healthier than his Danish cousin. I don't see him abdicating anytime soon as he remains a very energetic and engaged king.

I think it would make more sense for King Harald to abdicate, but I expect him to follow Queen Elizabeth II's example and stay on.

 

[Stefan]

Carl Gustav is younger and apparently healthier than his Danish cousin. I don't see him abdicating anytime soon as he remains a very energetic and engaged king.

I think it would make more sense for King Harald to abdicate, but I expect him to follow Queen Elizabeth II's example and stay on

And Victoria's children are also younger then the one of Frederik and Mary.
As for King Harald i could imagine a reason for him not to abdicate is MM's health. So that she doesn't become Queen as long as possible.

 

[Curryong]

If the Norwegian Royal Family had even two extra available members willing to undertake royal duties for the next decade or so, I think King Harald would probably seriously consider retirement, considering his fragile state of health. The family doesn’t however, and with MM not in good health either and Prss Ingrid-Alexandra still with several years of tertiary education before her the King has to soldier on.

 

[xenobia]

The Swedish RF is in a different situation than the Norwegian RF.

The King is in reasonably good health (but had heart surgery last year). The crown princess family would be able to take over any day, but I think that Victoria is happy with not being queen as long as her children are so young. All of the members of the RF has talked about how hard it was for both children and parents when the King and Queen had to be away for work so much when the kids were younger.

Victoria will also, when the day comes, have a good back-up from Carl Philip and Sofia. Perhaps even Madeleine if she one day moves back to Sweden. So there's a King with quite good health, and a good back-up crew.

The Norwegian RF is not in the same situation. Harald is frail, but so is MM. And Haakon doesn't have a sibling to help out, since ML is... out and about with other things. I think he will hang in there as long as possible to give the Crown Prince family more time. But I wouldn't rule out an abdication. I also think that if the King abdicates or passes, Queen Sonia will be around to help out. She seems to be in good health and I think she'll be a key player in the Norwegian RF no matter if it's her husband or son who is king.

 

[Mbruno]

I´m sure, as a non-pragmatist and traditionalist, I´m in the minority.... As such I strongly believe in the old principle of "The King is dead! Long live The King/ Queen!" and that monarchy, different from any other form of state, is a sacred institution which man cannot just reject if things become too heavy. I hope the underminig of this principle will not weaken the danish monarchy (The dutch monarchy, the most iconic one of the "abdicating monarchies", is not one of the most strongest and solid ones in europe these days...). Being monarch - or Pope - should not be an office to just put down and retire like the rest of us do!
Still I salute Qu. Margrethe for her great reign - the more of a pity she ends it before time.

Abdications are practically institutionalized in the Netherlands. However, now that we have also had recent abdications in Belgium, Spain and in unlikely places like Japan and Denmark, I am inclined to believe succession by abdication (rather than the demise of the King) will become the norm in most kingdoms too.



The fact is that longer life expectancy has raised the expected age of accession of heirs, typically past their prime. I respect Queen Elizabeth II for serving as queen until her last day (even appointing a new PM 24 hours or so before her passing), but I don't think a situation like that of King Charles III , who ascended the throne at 73, is desirable under current circumstances. So I think it makes sense to have an abdication when the heir is in the 50-55 age range.

 

[Blog Real]

Abdications are practically institutionalized in the Netherlands. However, now that we have also had recent abdications in Belgium, Spain and in unlikely places like Japan and Denmark, I am inclined to believe succession by abdication (rather than the demise of the King) will become the norm in most kingdoms too.



The fact is that longer life expectancy has raised the expected age of accession of heirs, typically past their prime. I respect Queen Elizabeth II for serving as queen until her last day (even appointing a new PM 24 hours or so before her passing), but I don't think a situation like that of King Charles III , who ascended the throne at 73, is desirable under current circumstances. So I think it makes sense to have an abdication when the heir is in the 50-55 age range.

I agree. Even for monarchs to give their heirs an opportunity to begin their reigns while they are still young and have a good quality of life.
That's why I agree with abdications.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

As much as Harald and Sonja may want to abdicate and retire, i’m afraid they can’t do that without leaving Haakon almost completely alone at the palace…. Frederik will have a great deal of help from his wife, his aunt Benedikte, and occasionally from his brother and sister in law, before his children have finished their educations and starts to take on royal duties….

Haakon is not that fortunate His wife is chronically ill, and his sister is totally unreliable and cannot be trusted with anything


For Sweden, i don’t see an abdication being considered for at least 6 years (when Princess Estelle turns 18)… The King is 9/6 years younger than his scandinavian colleauges and in excellent health… Yes he had a heart surgery in March but that was a minor surgery that only required 1,5 week of rest… And knowing the workaholic King Carl Gustaf, he was probably up and working from home all that time

 

[tommy100]

I do think abdications will become the norm now, the vast majority of monarchies have now been through one in recent years - those where is is almost usual (Lux and Netherlands), those where its not unheard of eg Belgium and now Denmark Spain. That only leaves Sweden Norway and UK where there is no precedent for it (Uk had one but not in a good way). I think eventually public opinion will pressure even these monarchies to consider it. I can see Harald going on longer until a nee health issue forces him to consider it, Sweden probably has another ten years and I can see CG hanging on but eventually public appetite forcing him to. Charles won’t IMO but maybe a regency will occur opening the possibility of William one day abdicating at the right time for George.

 

[W.Y.CII]

Abdication is to retire from the position, doesn't necessarily mean retire from being working royal. For the Norwegian I can see Harald still does some engagements even if he'd abdicate, for Sonja I wouldn't be surprised if she continues working full-time, and Astrid will continue doing what she's currently doing as well.

Anyway I still think the possibility of abdication in Norway is very low, just think having less working members isn't necessarily a main factor though.

CG is completely another story, I can see him reign for at least another decade.

 

[pkl]

I don't think there will be an abdication in Norway.
Harald's big luck is to have Sonja by his side. Yes, they both turn 87 next year, but Sonja is almost like a healthy 60 year old woman. She has not aged much. As Margrethe in Denmark, Sonja has been the best that happened for the Norwegian monarchy.
The future however, not very good. Maybe Sverre Magnus need to become a working royal.

 

[Mbruno]

I don't think there will be an abdication in Norway.
Harald's big luck is to have Sonja by his side. Yes, they both turn 87 next year, but Sonja is almost like a healthy 60 year old woman. She has not aged much. As Margrethe in Denmark, Sonja has been the best that happened for the Norwegian monarchy.
The future however, not very good. Maybe Sverre Magnus need to become a working royal.

I believe Sverre Magnus will have to be a working royal until Ingrid Alexandra gets married.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

I believe Sverre Magnus will have to be a working royal until Ingrid Alexandra gets married.

What type of duties would Prince Sverre Magnus do if he was a working royal?

 

[doro]

What type of duties would Prince Sverre Magnus do if he was a working royal?

He would attend official dinners, he would attend regional visits, State visits, etc .