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  #221  
Old 06-08-2021, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I would say three octogenarians: Princess Astrid remains a part-time working royal for now.
Princess Astrid undertakes fewer engagements than Mette-Marit, so if she isn't counted because of the limited number of engagements, it seems fair not to count Astrid either.

Astrid:
2021: 3 (a board meeting, her brother-in-law's funeral and a digital greeting)
2020: 4 (Ari's funeral, ski tournament, board meeting and luncheon)
So, 2 funerals, 3 activities related to the Crown Princess Märtha Memorial Fund; and 2 other activities

Märtha Louise:
2021: 1 (funeral)
2020: 3 (funeral, board meeting, confirmation)
Like her aunt, Märtha Louise's primary involvement seems to be with one fund (in her case the Princess Märtha Louise's Fund)

Mette-Marit:
2021: 26 meetings on about 20 different days
2020: 25 meetings
So, Mette-Marit increased her number of activities quite significantly as she already had more recorded activities in 2021 than in all of 2020.
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  #222  
Old 06-08-2021, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
But Mikael was not asking about the line of succession, but why Prince Carl Philip is a working member of the Swedish royal house whereas Prince Sverre Magnus is not a member of the Norwegian royal house and is expected to lead a private life, when both princes are in the line of succession and are the spares of their generation. Given that Sweden and Norway shared many cultural similarities, it is not a bizarre question at all.
The question at the time was framed around the small size of Norway's royal house, TM. Given that a little more than 45 years ago Sweden's line of succession was 2 people (the princesses and disinherited princes not counting for much of significance), it seemed to be a strange question for someone who knows Swedish royal and recent history to ask.
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  #223  
Old 06-08-2021, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Princess Astrid undertakes fewer engagements than Mette-Marit, so if she isn't counted because of the limited number of engagements, it seems fair not to count Astrid either.

Astrid:
2021: 3 (a board meeting, her brother-in-law's funeral and a digital greeting)
2020: 4 (Ari's funeral, ski tournament, board meeting and luncheon)
So, 2 funerals, 3 activities related to the Crown Princess Märtha Memorial Fund; and 2 other activities

Märtha Louise:
2021: 1 (funeral)
2020: 3 (funeral, board meeting, confirmation)
Like her aunt, Märtha Louise's primary involvement seems to be with one fund (in her case the Princess Märtha Louise's Fund)

Mette-Marit:
2021: 26 meetings on about 20 different days
2020: 25 meetings
So, Mette-Marit increased her number of activities quite significantly as she already had more recorded activities in 2021 than in all of 2020.
Interesting, thank you; I assume the numbers are from kongehuset.no?

I wasn't referring to the years 2020 and 2021 specifically; as most of those two years have been during the pandemic I'm not sure they are representative.

In regards to Mette-Marit, I believe the assumption was that her activities would eventually be minimal if and when her health worsens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
The question at the time was framed around the small size of Norway's royal house, TM. Given that a little more than 45 years ago Sweden's line of succession was 2 people (the princesses and disinherited princes not counting for much of significance), it seemed to be a strange question for someone who knows Swedish royal and recent history to ask.
I am sorry, I don't think I understand what you are saying. How does Sweden's line of succession, royal and recent history provide the answer to why Carl Philip is included in the Royal House while Sverre Magnus is excluded?
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  #224  
Old 06-08-2021, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

I am sorry, I don't think I understand what you are saying. How does Sweden's line of succession, royal and recent history provide the answer why Carl Philip is included in the Royal House while Sverre Magnus is excluded?
Because the question was not about Carl Philip and Sverre Magnus but overarchingly "why is Norway's royal house so small?" I think you may have focused on a different detail or facet of the question than I did in my response from last year.

My answer was that "Sweden's royal house (or the only part that mattered) was recently even smaller." That does not explain why Norway's house is currently small, but it makes it a strange question coming from someone already aware of a similar situation. The answer is "sometimes it happens that way".

I'm afraid I don't understand why this is being brought up months later. Perhaps you can accept we took two different approaches to this question?
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  #225  
Old 06-08-2021, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Because the question was not about Carl Philip and Sverre Magnus but overarchingly "why is Norway's royal house so small?"
After explaining the events that led to the tradition of a small royal house in Norway, Mikael stated his question as: "the difference is that Carl Philip and his nephew Oscar remained members of the Royal House, yet Sverre Magnus wasn't born a member of the Royal House. I wonder what makes the difference between Sweden and Norway."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
I'm afraid I don't understand why this is being brought up months later. Perhaps you can accept we took two different approaches to this question?
With respect, regardless of approach, I think Mikael had every right to pose the question and that it was not at all bizarre. I accept that you will not agree.
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  #226  
Old 06-08-2021, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Interesting, thank you; I assume the numbers are from kongehuset.no?
Yes, they are. Counting by hand; so could be one off for larger numbers.

Quote:
I wasn't referring to the years 2020 and 2021 specifically; as most of those two years have been during the pandemic I'm not sure they are representative.

In regards to Mette-Marit, I believe the assumption was that her activities would eventually be minimal if and when her health worsens.
Yes, that's true. So, it might be a good sign that she is currently undertaking more activities (Zoom activities last year would probably be less intensive than visits; and still she is up in numbers).

However, I would argue that we've already seen princess Astrid reduce her activities quite a lot/too a rather minimal level, I don't expect her to pick up speed after the pandemic other than attending some activities that she used to attend that are also attended by others (such as dinners/luncheons); so I don't think she is of much help in terms of adding engagements - she is mainly a support act for major royal engagements already taking place.

A quick look into 2019 for princess Astrid: 16 activities, including:
- 4 solo activities
- 1 board meeting (CPM Mem.Fund)
- 8 official afternoon tea, luncheons, dinners, concert (with other family members)
- 1 confirmation (with royal family)
- 1 funeral (with king)
- 1 exhibition (with queen)

In comparison to princess Märtha Louise: 8 activities in 2019.
- 3 solo activities
- 2 annual/board meetings (PML Fund)
- 2 official luncheons (with king and queen/royal family)
- 1 confirmation (with royal family)
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  #227  
Old 06-08-2021, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
After explaining the events that led to the tradition of a small royal house in Norway, Mikael stated his question as: "the difference is that Carl Philip and his nephew Oscar remained members of the Royal House, yet Sverre Magnus wasn't born a member of the Royal House. I wonder what makes the difference between Sweden and Norway."



With respect, regardless of approach, I think Mikael had every right to pose the question and that it was not at all bizarre. I accept that you will not agree.
Perhaps the ambiguous wording of the last sentence led you to believe the question was about Carl Philip, Oscar, and Sverre Magnus, and perhaps it was, but it led me to believe he was asking about the Swedish and Norwegian royal families in general. With respect, this seems to be pure and unnecessary pedantry. I accept that you will not agree, so I would prefer to end the discussion here. Thank you.
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  #228  
Old 06-09-2021, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Perhaps the ambiguous wording of the last sentence led you to believe the question was about Carl Philip, Oscar, and Sverre Magnus, and perhaps it was, but it led me to believe he was asking about the Swedish and Norwegian royal families in general. With respect, this seems to be pure and unnecessary pedantry. I accept that you will not agree, so I would prefer to end the discussion here. Thank you.
I hope your last comment was directed only at myself and not at Mikael. Again, I appreciate his contribution and I believe it deserves an answer rather than to be labeled "bizarre" (I know that you disagree), so while, as with any other question/answer, it will not interest everyone (and those who are uninterested are of course free to ignore it), I am afraid I will continue with my answer to his question.
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  #229  
Old 06-09-2021, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
As opposed to Sweden, whose parliament gave the first green light for the absolute primogeniture constitutional amendment in 1978, before Carl Philip was born (a second green light has to be given by a new parliament after election), Norway passed their amendment in 1990. Haakon Magnus was then 17, so it would be unfair to strip him of his place as heir apparent.
Since Haakon Magnus is expected to have children of his own, Märtha Louise chose a private business life and married Ari Behn who and whose children were not granted any titles at all.
-
Haakon Magnus' spouse Mette Marit had 3 kids, Marius at 24 (not sired by Haakon), Ingrid Alexandra at 30 and Sverre Magnus at 32. Marius, as the half-brother of the two royals, chose to live a private life. Sverre Magnus is not a part of the Royal House and therefore does not receive HRH titles at all. Ingrid Alexandra's generation was the first generation of absolute primogeniture in Norway (compare Sweden where Victoria's generation is the first to use AP), but the difference is that Carl Philip and his nephew Oscar remained members of the Royal House, yet Sverre Magnus wasn't born a member of the Royal House. I wonder what makes the difference between Sweden and Norway.
Essentially, the differing priorities and historical concepts of King Harald V and King Carl XVI Gustaf.


Firstly, as Norwegian royal expert Royal Norway explained in several posts (the first of which I will quote here), the Royal Family confirmed in interviews that the King believed it would be unfair to the older generation(s) of spares if the younger generation(s) were to enjoy greater privileges than the older generations(s).

If Märtha Louise were to retain her status after marriage, a privilege Ragnhild and Astrid had been denied, it would be unfair to them. Likewise, it would be unfair to Ragnhild, Astrid, and Märtha Louise if Sverre Magnus did not lose his status after marriage, thus the decision that he might as well not have it from birth.

King Carl XVI Gustaf, in contrast, saw himself as free to make different decisions from his predecessors, even if that meant his children and his uncle Bertil enjoying the right to marry commoners and retain their privileges while his sisters and uncles had to live with the consequence of becoming private citizens for marrying their own commoner spouses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
Well, Princess Astrid and the late Princess Ragnhild stopped being members of the Royal House when they married ''non-royal'' men.
The media didn't want this to happen to Märtha when she married in 2002, but the King meant it would have been unfair to his sisters if she had retained her position, while they had to let go of theirs.

That means:
They are no longer Royal Highnesses.
Their birthdays are not an official flag day anymore.
They are no longer on the balcony on May 17th.
They are not required to perform royal duties.
They does not receive money from the state.
They have to pay taxes.

It was the same with Sverre. The King and Haakon meant it would have been unfair to Raghnild, Astrid and Märtha if he was to retain his position after he marries. So, therefore, Haakon and MM thought it was best that he was born without being a member of the Royal House, because then he don't have to go through the same process as the princesses had to do, when they lost their positions.
That discussion was continued here, if you are interested. https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2140522
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  #230  
Old 06-09-2021, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Essentially, the differing priorities and historical concepts of King Harald V and King Carl XVI Gustaf.


Firstly, as Norwegian royal expert Royal Norway explained in several posts (the first of which I will quote here), the Royal Family confirmed in interviews that the King believed it would be unfair to the older generation(s) of spares if the younger generation(s) were to enjoy greater privileges than the older generations(s).

If Märtha Louise were to retain her status after marriage, a privilege Ragnhild and Astrid had been denied, it would be unfair to them. Likewise, it would be unfair to Ragnhild, Astrid, and Märtha Louise if Sverre Magnus did not lose his status after marriage, thus the decision that he might as well not have it from birth.

King Carl XVI Gustaf, in contrast, saw himself as free to make different decisions from his predecessors, even if that meant his children and his uncle Bertil enjoying the right to marry commoners and retain their privileges while his sisters and uncles had to live with the consequence of becoming private citizens for marrying their own commoner spouses.




That discussion was continued here, if you are interested. https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2140522
King Carl Gustav felt that he couldn't undo the decisions made by his grandfather and great-grandfather, but that he was free to make decisions of his own. This, it was communicated, was one of the main reasons behind him not allowing his uncles Sigvard, Carl-Johan and his cousin Lennart to regain the use of their titles after the wedding of Bertil and Lilian in 1986 and later when Sigvard after the British State visit to Sweden in 1983 decided to start using that title and later sued to have it legally validified.
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  #231  
Old 06-11-2021, 12:41 PM
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A second reason was that King Harald V was committed to maintaining the status quo in Norway. Under the Glücksburg dynasty, of course, the Royal House had always consisted of very few members.

In Sweden, that had not always been the situation under the Bernadotte dynasty. One could speculate perhaps that King Carl XVI Gustaf believed the slimmed-down Swedish royal house of the late 20th century was an anomaly by historical standards.

Quoting Royal Norway's translation of the Norwegian royal spokeswoman's statement in 2005:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
Why did the King (in consultation with Haakon) decide that Sverre should not be a member of the Royal House? Well, in addition to the stuff mentioned above, the King also had another thing in mind:

VG article from 2005: Kongen bryter norske tradisjoner - VG

Quote:

The King's reason for not giving the new prince the title Royal Highness is because the Norwegian Royal House, since 1905, has traditionally consisted of few members, and the King wishes to continue this tradition.


"The King believes that this will also give the new prince greater freedom to choose his own future, e.g. by career choice," says information manager Astrid Versto of NTB.
With ''few members,'' they mean the monarch/consort, the heir/wife, and the eldest child of the heir.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
In a way that's quite good for Sverre Magnus as he get to have freer lives. But what about Prince Oscar? Will he be a racer like his uncle?
As of now, Prince Oscar remains a member of the Royal House and is expected to receive public funding for carrying out official engagements, like his uncle.
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