Daniel's Future: Discussion (his role, title, orders, pressure etc.)

[Lena]

So if I understand you right, there´s a high chance, that Daniel would get nothing, no order, and no military title...just the title "prince consort" and "Father of the Queen´s children". Strong meat... I know, that we live in the 21st century, and I´m for feminsim, but though it´s a fact, that a lot of men, have problems to be in less powerful positions than their wives... and this is probably already hard enough, when you work in different jobs, but when you´re in the same, and you wife is above you...then it´s obviously for you every single second...
One picture came to my mind: There´s Victoria, bright, stunning, in full "regalia" at a gala...and a few steps behind her-near the corner-stands her husband, the prince consort and suddenly the people start to give him their coats, because they think, that he´s a "hallstand".
Well, maybe it´s just me...maybe I should start to rethink...but though I don´t think, that it will become easy for the swedish prince consort...one thing is sure, he has to be a "strong personality"

[GrandDuchess]

Originally posted by Lena@Apr 15th, 2004 - 7:23 pm
So if I understand you right, there´s a high chance, that Daniel would get nothing, no order, and no military title...just the title "prince consort" and "Father of the Queen´s children"

I'm almost certain that he will get no military rank title, as I explained in my last post:

Grand Duchess earlier:
In Sweden, there are very few people that have the highest rank titles in defence, and the few royals that holds/did hold ranks are often born as royals. I believe that it is only The King, of the present Royal House, who at this present time holds these high ranks in the Swedish Defence.

- but when it comes to the Order of the Seraphim - no one knows!

There is a chance that the Crown Princess's future husband gets it, but there is also the chance he doesn't.

GrandDuchess earlier:
On your fist question, whether I think that The King would confer the Order of the Seraphim to the Crown Princess’s coming husband, I frankly don’t know and no one will know until later on in this life. The members of the Royal House of Sweden who are in the Line of Succession, are in the current tradition conferred with the Order of the Seraphim when they turn 18, as happened in the case of Crown Princess Victoria, Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine.

My guess would be that if the future husband of the Crown Princess does get to receive the Order of the Seraphim – it would be either after their marriage, or when the Crown Princess ascends the Throne and becomes Queen (in that case it would be our current Crown Princess who confers it to her husband).

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by Lena@Apr 15th, 2004 - 8:23 pm
So if I understand you right, there´s a high chance, that Daniel would get nothing, no order, and no military title...just the title "prince consort" and "Father of the Queen´s children". Strong meat... I know, that we live in the 21st century, and I´m for feminsim, but though it´s a fact, that a lot of men, have problems to be in less powerful positions than their wives... and this is probably already hard enough, when you work in different jobs, but when you´re in the same, and you wife is above you...then it´s obviously for you every single second...
One picture came to my mind: There´s Victoria, bright, stunning, in full "regalia" at a gala...and a few steps behind her-near the corner-stands her husband, the prince consort and suddenly the people start to give him their coats, because they think, that he´s a "hallstand".
Well, maybe it´s just me...maybe I should start to rethink...but though I don´t think, that it will become easy for the swedish prince consort...one thing is sure, he has to be a "strong personality"

I agree with a lot of what you've said, Lena. I think that a lot of men in Daniel's position would have a problem with their wife not just in a more powerful position than them socially, but in many other ways, as well.

As the Queen of Sweden, Victoria will hold the highest position in Sweden, as the head of the state, even if only symbolically. She will be the one who probably earns more money, or at least have better access financially than Daniel, even if his gym business is a successful enterprise.

She will likely be one of the most important people in Sweden--and no matter how liberal-minded Daniel is, I would think that his ego would take even a little beating in knowing that his wife is more important and powerful than him, in addition to being the "breadwinner" of the family.

While I am completely all for Queen power (and the next generation of royals will certainly see lots of Queens holding court), I think Margrethe and Henrik of Denmark are a good (bad?) example of how the imbalance of power can affect a person's sense of self-worth. Whatever one might think of Henrik and his eccentric ways, I think that Henrik's sense of being the third member of his family, only after his wife and his son, speaks volumes. In the future, Daniel could also be in this position, taking a back seat to Victoria and their eldest child. Nobody likes to feel less important than others, and especially not on such a publicly known/aware level. Prince Phillip of Great Britain has also expressed similiar dismay about his role within the Windsor family, and how frustrating it is to know that your wife is more important than you and that you will always be regarded as "less than her." (How did Prince Claus feel as Queen Beatrix' Queen consort? Or perhaps he was not as vocal as the other Queen consorts?) Perhaps the 'inferior-like' views and attitudes of Henrik and Phillip are more related to their generation, and perhaps Daniel might react differently as a modern man. I certainly hope that for his and Victoria's sake he would; it would certainly make his life easier in the long run.

[GrandDuchess]

Very vell said, Alexandria! The life as Prince Consort is indeed a complex one, and one could hope that the future husband of our Crown Princess "takes it as a modern man" - but it will be hard, no matter what century we are in - things are still as it is.

The character and personality of her future husband will have to be very strong.

[Lena]

Yes, indeed very well said, Alexandria! I guess I have a "twin mind" in Canada.
I´m just wondering about one thing... Does Victoria really want the "modern man" as husband?! Let´s have a look at her choices (Daniel I and Daniel II): both IMO were of the species "protective guy". And when we just talk about Daniel Westling...imo he doesn´t seem to me, as if he would be a very feministic guy...ok, I don´t know his attitude towards feminsim...but my impression (so far) is, that he´s a man, who needs his independence, manly rituals (I talk about his ardor for all kind of sports...competition...the "leftover" of the hunts on the mammoths No, I don´t say, that women don´t watch sports or practise it...but on the whole-though I believe in feminism and though I like soccer-I think that this "crazy enthusiasm" for sports will always belong to the male part of the world population ) and the feeling, that he can protect "his" girl, that he´s the one, who can give her the feeling of confidence... and if such a man (even when he pretends to be modern...yes, even when he says it to himself in the mirror every morning) wants to give up his independence (and maybe dominance) for a role as prince consort..that´s the big question!

[hrhcp]

Lena  Posted: Apr 15th, 2004 - 7:23 pm

So if I understand you right, there´s a high chance, that Daniel would get nothing, no order, and no military title...just the title "prince consort" and "Father of the Queen´s children". Strong meat... I know, that we live in the 21st century, and I´m for feminsim, but though it´s a fact, that a lot of men, have problems to be in less powerful positions than their wives... and this is probably already hard enough, when you work in different jobs, but when you´re in the same, and you wife is above you...then it´s obviously for you every single second...
One picture came to my mind: There´s Victoria, bright, stunning, in full "regalia" at a gala...and a few steps behind her-near the corner-stands her husband, the prince consort and suddenly the people start to give him their coats, because they think, that he´s a "hallstand".
Well, maybe it´s just me...maybe I should start to rethink...but though I don´t think, that it will become easy for the swedish prince consort...one thing is sure, he has to be a "strong personality"

On the flip side ... he (that is, if he becomes consort) would be a "role model" for the 'next generation'.

I mean ... look at it ..... Victoria will be ruler as the next generation of current future rulers are at present babies: the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway .....

Interesting transition period once Victoria becomes Queen; her husband will be 'looked up to' by prospects thinking of becoming Prince Consorts in further years to come. Quite a novel thought !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It wouldn't surprise me if CP V has thought about that ...... and CP Haakon and CP Philip have shown the way of marrying of the country's own.

[mixer2002de]

Actually you´re right...he can´t really defend himself...maybe he could try to get caught of photographers, when he sits on a bench and reads the book of the current nobel prize winner in literature in english...but then people would say, he does this on purpose.
I think to keep silent is the best he can do...but maybe he should try to look friendlier, when photographers appear, especially when they are at "open places" like stadiums.

I think its quite hard to be a public person if the media does not like you. And Daniel II became public because he is the crown princess boyfriend.

You (mixer) as german surely read the article in german...I´m not sure, if it came in my translation out that many things in the article were quoted and written in subjunctive...so they DON´T CLAIM, that Daniel Westling is stupid and takes advantage of Victoria...and even the worst german tabloids just wrote this week, that the swedish press isn´t fair to Daniel W.*

Yes the German newspaper does not claim this beeing its own opinion. Its more or less a report what other swedish newspapers wrote. But the German newspaper seems to be a more serious one so would be common for them to report this way.
But I do not understand why they cared about that. Maybe they had some free space to fill and did not know what to write.
Anyway Daniel W does not stand in a good light after that report!

( I guess they are meekly now, after the trials)

I wonder if it was just coincidal that they were sued after I had written in this forum that sueing them would be a good idea.

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by Lena@Apr 15th, 2004 - 10:26 pm
Yes, indeed very well said, Alexandria! I guess I have a "twin mind" in Canada.

Thank you, GrandDuchess and Lena.

@ Lena: Maybe we share one mind? (Although I don't think it's a really good idea for me to be sharing whatever bit of mind I have left in tact! :P )

I´m just wondering about one thing... Does Victoria really want the "modern man" as husband?! Let´s have a look at her choices (Daniel I and Daniel II): both IMO were of the species "protective guy". And when we just talk about Daniel Westling...imo he doesn´t seem to me, as if he would be a very feministic guy...

I think that everybody likes to feel protected and safe, not necessarily to the point where one is completely dependent on another person, but to know that we are taken care of and that someone is there to provide security for us is a generally nice feeling. And Victoria being in the position she is and being constantly watched and followed by the press and paparazzi, perhaps Victoria is more vulnerable than most people, and a sense of security and protection is more important to her. Or simply that nice safe feeling of knowing that she can completely trust Daniel even if she is weary of others.

but my impression (so far) is, that he´s a man, who needs his independence, manly rituals [...] and the feeling, that he can protect "his" girl, that he´s the one, who can give her the feeling of confidence... and if such a man (even when he pretends to be modern...yes, even when he says it to himself in the mirror every morning) wants to give up his independence (and maybe dominance) for a role as prince consort..that´s the big question!

I sense this from Daniel, as well; that he is a person who likes his independence and does not like to be "bossed around" or ruled by others or the rituals of royal court or otherwise. He likes to feel like at least, if not also be, the protector of the people in his life and be able to come to their defence or defend their honour. I think that as a prince consort Daniel's independent streak would most certainly be tested as the confines of royal duty and protocol can be quite stifling. Not everybody is cut out for life under the public eye with obligations to history and protocol to follow. (Sarah Ferguson rebelled under the pressures while Princess Masako suffered from stress as a result.) As I don't know much about Daniel, I don't know if he is cut out for this kind of life, even if he does love Victoria tremendously.

[Josefine]

if he gets married to Victoria do you think he can be a qoner or do he have to sell to his partner?

[Yennie]

I hope he is allowed to have "his thing". I dont think he would be happy to dedicate his entire life to be prince/king or wathever he´s called....
a part time gym owner is perfect :P
But I can see problems in that too. the royal family dont "favour" certain things and places and give them free pr.
They´ve already done that with Master training but when (if&#33 Victoria and Daniel get married its official, and it might not be appropiate that a member of the royal family owns a gym...

[Lena]

I can´t imagine that he could keep his gym. Think of all the fuss, when it was claimed, that Victoria "worked" as pr-girl for Daniel´s gym. And so far she´s just his girlfriend.
But maybe he could find a task as prince, where he could live out his strong interest for sports. For example as head of an organisation, which "fetch away" teenagers from the streets, and offers them opportunities to do sports. Or maybe he could work as "ambassador" for Olympia.

[Alexandria]

I know the King and Queen have accepted and welcomed Daniel as part of Victoria's life but what is the word on the street in Sweden about Daniel's appropriateness or suitability for the role? He strikes me as someone who intensely cares for his privacy (who can blame him) and would find palace life and the life of being the Queen Reageant's consort quite limiting and confining. He never looks all that happy or comfortable when photographed with Victoria when they are out and about. I sympathize with him that it must be annoying, but when I think about how Mary, Letizia, Maxima, etc. have reacted I think its a very different approach. The ladies, while they may not care for it at times, don't seem to scowl as much as Daniel does. Even if they were clenching their teeth beneath the exterior of those pearly white smiles, they still put on a bit of a show. There is something to be said for an individual who doesn't fake his or her feelings but considering the very public role Daniel would be taking on, I think in some cases it is appropriate and even necessary to grin and bear it no matter how you truly felt inside.

Or perhaps do you think that in time Daniel will adjust, adapt and learn to live with the press presence in his life? Mette-Marit is the most recent royal who comes to mind who seemed to despise the press in the beginning of her relationship with Haakon. She, too, often scowled at the press, particularly when they followed her trips to the park with Haakon and her son. But in recent years I think she's gotten better at either hiding her true feelings about the press or just gotten so used to it it doesn't faze her anymore.

[Lena]

"The word on the street"...an interesting question and hard to answer...maybe the Swedes can say something to it (is Daniel W. a topic in your social circles? And when yes, which opinions do people have)

Hm, I´m not sure if I would still agree, that Daniel is really unhappy with the idea to become a prince.
As you can see in the picture above Daniel is posing for the camera...maybe not really happy looking, but he did.
And in the beginning of this summer he has started to talk to the press. And has given very cryptic answers on the questions of a reliable swedish journalist (e.g. "Och den dag saker och ting händer så kommer det också att märkas"-"And on the day, on which things/something happen, you/the ppl will note it")
It looks as if Daniel has started to enjoy the game with the press. I even wonder if this wasn´t the case from the very beginning. I don´t want to allege that he has/had dishonest motives...but I think that Daniel Westling is far more a guy, who seeks for a challenge and who loves it to socialize with people, than a shy boy from a mini-town in the middle of nowhere.

[GrandDuchess]

My apprehension of the Swedes feelings for Daniel Westling is this: they (or shall I say we) are not jumping with joy about him, but they/we accept him because he is the choice of our Crown Princess (at least this far).

BUT - I think that if Crown Princess Victoria and Daniel decide to marry at one point, Daniel will have an extremely tough time ahead of him. Because once the engagement comes, I expect that the people will have big expectations on him.

He will be expected to be what he is not today (his clothes, nicer to the press, more open etc.) quite immediately. So he has a lot to learn if before an announcement like that. Also the way our Crown Princess is must make it even harder for her future husband – she always does a lot of work in the Royal Family and wants to do her best at all times – this means that her husband will have to put in the second half of the work to make them a good working couple.

The press will not have much patience, the people maybe a little more – but the expectations will be big.

And yes, Daniel Westling is a topic on and off in my circles at least – but maybe not with the most positive comments… For myself, I accept Daniel because I want our Crown Princess to be able to love whomever she chooses and he is now her choice – nothing more, nothing less.

[Lena]

Thank you for your opinion and your impressions, GrandDuchess.

Hm, I´ve thought the Swedes would feel at least a little bit proud, that Victoria might choose a Swede. But I also see, that his education is a problem...as you´ve said Victoria is a high achiever...and all the politicians, ambassadors and economy people around the Royal family had an first class education. And those people were chosen, because they have the competence to do their job. Daniel would be chosen out of love...actually a wonderful and romantic reason...but he also will be measured with the standards, which are "common" for people in high positions.
I also think, that it will be/is harder for Daniel, because he´s a man. Alexandria has said, that the crown princesses seemed nicer, when they met the press (before their weddings)...isn´t it always for a girl "easier" to be nice...or at least it´s more common...the women are the ones, who smile permanently, who hug little kids, who "beam" in the limelight through their elegance, their style...men are more in the background. But I guess it´s not easy to win hearts from the background. You´ve 3 possibilities...1) you stay there and suffer from it that you´re only the "shadow" (maybe you would get credit from the ppl for that...like the late prince Claus from the Netherlands)
2) you try to attract attention (here for a woman it would be easy...buy some exclusive Gucci-gowns, do some charity and smile)...but then it could be that the people would criticize you, because you put the attention away from the real sovereign and because you seem too arrogant, attention-seeking etc.
or 3) you find a balance between 1 and 2.

I guess number 3 is the best way, but the most difficult to achieve. And if Daniel would be diplomatic and wise enough to do it this way and to try hard is the big question...only time would/will show.

[Cissan]

My image of the Swedes' opinion of Daniel is that the older generation, like my parents and grand parents are not so happy about him. They think "he will bring down the monarchy".

I, on the other hand, am so happy to see Victoria smiling and in love so I really wish that they will get married so that he can continue making her this happy for the rest of her life.

And then we have the socialists in Sweden, which is a big group that neither myself or my family is a part of. The newspaper Aftonbladet where Daniel Nyhlén works is a socialist paper. This group is quite happy for this relationship I believe. They like the fact that there might be a working class boy as a prince regnant one day.

However, this is just how I belive that people feel. Other Swedes might have a different opinion.

[Lena]

Thank you for your opinion and impressions too, Cissan.
I should have asked this question long before...I mean we have discussed "Daniel & the press", "Daniel and the people" and "Daniel and the Royal court" a few dozens time, but it´s hard for foreigners to get an real idea, a real "picture"...and there you, the Swedes, are a great help.
Maybe Yennie and Josefine can also add, what they think (of course only if you want )

[mgrant]

Will he be a consort?

[MoonlightRhapsody]

Originally Posted by mgrant

By the way, I know this was discussed previously, will he be a consort?

Yes. He won't be titled as "King" because it has a connotation as being higher in rank than "queen", so like Henrik of Denmark and Claus of the Netherlands, he would have the title "Prince Consort".

[hrhcp]

Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody

... he would have the title "Prince Consort".

BTW ... what's Silvia's official title, "Queen" or "Queen Consort" ?