Royal Cyphers, Coronets, Arms and Monograms

[Jacknch]

Well there are or were marquesses of Lansdown, Linlithgo and Lothian - could it have cone from one of them? Is the porcelain British or continental?

[blacklobster]

Hello,

The porcelain is continental made by "Count Thun" in Bohemia around 1890.
I have been looking at European Royal families but it really is a mine field for an amateur like me.....

[Warren]

The coronet is stylised which makes it hard to pin down. It's unlikely to be British as there is no cap and the coronet of a Marquess doesn't have coloured stones in the base.
Have a look at the Wikipedia page on Heraldic Crowns.
It contains excellent representations and has recently been updated with even more examples.

[Jacknch]

Originally Posted by blacklobster

Hello,

The porcelain is continental made by "Count Thun" in Bohemia around 1890.
I have been looking at European Royal families but it really is a mine field for an amateur like me.....

Well, as soon as I googled Count Thun it came up with Leopold, Count von Thun und Hohenstein with information about him on-line....maybe the porcelaine is commemorative for him as he died in 1888.

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by blacklobster

Hello,

The porcelain is continental made by "Count Thun" in Bohemia around 1890.
I have been looking at European Royal families but it really is a mine field for an amateur like me.....

I don't know if this will help but after searching a little bit, I came up with this information. It might tell you what mark to look for and perhaps even research into the town itself might help in identifying the coronet. My guess that it is the family coronet. Also, I know next to nothing about porcelain or china.

Count Thun Porcelain Factory, Klášterec, Czech Republic (Klosterle, Bohemia, Austria).

The town was the Thun family estate.
1794 founded by Johann Weber and Johann Sontag, and financed by Count Franz Josef von Thun.
1797 it was leased by Christian Nonne.
1803 Count Josef Matthias von Thun operated the factory.
1805 it was leased by Melzer and Habertitzel.
1819 to 1945 the business was run by the Thuns as Count Thun Porcelain Factory. The earliest Marks look like a letter "K" with antlers or the letters "TK," some of the Marks appear as "Thuny," (1895-1945). In 1947 the factory was nationalized into Duchcovský Porcelán in Dux, then in 1958 it became part of Karlovarský Porcelán. See the Factory Mergers, Associations and Nationalizations table. It operated as Karlovarský Porcelán AS Závod Klášterec. Karlovarský Porcelán was privatized in 1992. Thereafter, several of the factories became independent businesses again, while others were maintained in the group. In 2001 Karlovarský Porcelán acquired the TK Thun design studio (not this factory) and began using the Thun Trademark. Thun Karlovarský Porcelán AS Závod Klásterec is still in business today.

Ginni's Bohemian & Czech Porcelain Factory & Marks Information Part I

[Jacknch]

Just to add more to the mystery, Leopold, Count von Thun und Hohenstein was Austrian and in the Austrian section of Warren's link above, the exact crown can be seen as on the porcelaine being an Austrian "crown of nobility".

So, IF I'm correct, the item could have been made at the factory Osipi has mentioned.

[Spheno]

The queen gave her maids of honour diamond brooches with ER letters

[Jacknch]

Originally Posted by Spheno

The queen gave her maids of honour diamond brooches with ER letters

Very special gifts I must say! The design is based on the Queen's handwriting when initialling documents and notes, so is very much a personal design for her ladies in waiting.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Jacknch

Just to add more to the mystery, Leopold, Count von Thun und Hohenstein was Austrian and in the Austrian section of Warren's link above, the exact crown can be seen as on the porcelain being an Austrian "crown of nobility".

So, IF I'm correct, the item could have been made at the factory Osipi has mentioned.

There are a couple of issues here. We should be careful in distinguishing the mark on the porcelain as the cypher of the original owner whereas the maker's mark would appear on the bottom of each piece. It's quite possible that the Graf von Thun und Hohenstein commissioned a set from the family factory and it is his personal cypher that we see. However, Graf Leopold's full Christian name was Leopold Leo so in theory at least his cypher [thumbnail 1] should consist of the stylised letters LLTH. Individual elements of cyphers can be hard to distinguish at the best of times but even so (and while acknowledging that anything is possible) I'm not sure that a sustainable argument can be made for LLTH appearing on the porcelain.

The other and perhaps more telling issue concerns the coronet. All male members of the Thun und Hohenstein family were made Reichsgraf - Counts of the Holy [Roman] Empire - in 1629. They were thus entitled to display the 'Older Crown of Counts' [five strawberry leaves] [attached image 1] rather than the 'Older Crown of Nobility' [three strawberry leaves separated by two pearls] [attached image 2]. The latter would more likely have been used by old non-titled noble families and old families whose titles weren't granted at the Imperial level. It is hard to imagine that a member of a proud Imperial comital family would forego the use of their rightful insignia which denotes their rank within the aristocratic hierarchy in favour of insignia denoting a lesser rank.

The coronet that started this investigation closely resembles the HRE Older Crown of Nobility and later Austrian Crown of Nobility [attached image 3], neither of which, logically speaking, would be used by an Imperial Count such as a Graf of the House of Thun-Hohenstein. A further argument against a Thun-Hohenstein cypher incorporating the Austrian Crown is that the Empire of Austria did not come into being until 1804. A family which had been granted its highest rank by the Holy Roman Emperor would not readily give that distinction up.

There are always exceptions to every rule of course and logic does not necessarily apply, but the probability is that the personal cypher of a Graf of Thun-Hohenstein would display the HRE Older Crown of Counts. That coronet is quite different to the coronet depicted on the porcelain.

↓ The original and as yet unidentified cypher
↓↓ 1. Holy Roman Empire Older Crown of Counts
....2. Holy Roman Empire Older Crown of Nobility
....3. post-1804 Austrian Empire Crown of Nobility

[Leslie2006]

Originally Posted by monarchist-us

I was bored and drew up some cyphers in Illustrator for the future reigns of Charles and William. I'm hoping they each get their own unique cyphers and don't just do a derivative of the current EIIR cypher.

Obviously completely speculative, but what do you all think?

(I didn't draw any of the letters myself, they are from fonts.)

Apologies if this is the wrong thread for this.

I love your interpretations! They look very much like what one would expect a monarch's cypher to be. It makes me wonder when little Prince George of Cambridge will get his own cypher; will it be soon, or when he turns 18?

[KittyAtlanta]

Originally Posted by Laura

The new website of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge finally shows Kate's coat of arms after the wedding. As far as I know there was no official announcement for the issuing of the Royal Warrant (as it was the case with Camilla back in July 2005).
Coat of Arms

Interesting that they chose the hind as a supporter.

Wikipedia has a better version of the coat of arms...
Reproduced here under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2

I think it is relevant as the hind represents patience and something else I can't remember.

[cepe]

Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta

I think it is relevant as the hind represents patience and something else I can't remember.

the something else is forest dweller - link to the oak in the Middleton crest

here is the page from their website explaining it all.

Coat of Arms

[crystal101]

Hello everyone, This is a brilliant site and I'm glad to have found it. This is my first post. I recently acquired a set of antique French silver items, the maker's marks date them to 1906-1912. Each piece has a monogram of the letter C encircled by a ducal coronet. Sadly, I don't know who the monogram belongs to. I'm hoping someone might have further information. Any help in identifying the monogram would be much appreciated. Many thanks, Crystal

[relostrat1]

Hello All, I am new to the forum and have joined to solicite help in identifying a monogram. This monogram appears on a piece of Faberge silver that I own. The work has french import marks so I can only assume that it was made and imported for someone in that chain. The crown is a nobel coronet so it is not of a king or Queen. it appears to be LPM or JPM.

Any all help appreciated

[craig]

I just joined this forum...I'm new to this and had a question....Although from an early age I've been intrigued with coat of arms, and monograms...I recently came upon one that I purchased..It what I was told is a child's crib sheet? It's a Red Crown with the initials P W and the year 1842...I sent a picture to a man in Texas and he said it looked similar to the one Queen Victoria had on her undergarments (The Crown and initials)
Any Ideas? Would be appreciated...I've been studying and looking for over a month now.
Craig.

I found an exact match to this bed sheet at this link. And I'm totally dumbfounded...Thanks for the help anyway...

My That's English!: Royal baby clothing at the Museum of London

[Warren]

Hi Craig
The best way for members to identify the monogram/cypher is to post a photgraph (one or more) of it here.
Once the photo is stored in your computer you can attach it as a thumbnail or via a link to an image-hosting site (eg Photobucket).

To attach the photo as a thumbnail image...
In your post, scroll down to 'Additional Options'
> click on 'Manage Attachments' [thumbnail 1]
in the new window that appears...
> click on 'Browse' [thumbnail 2]
a window appears which allows you to select the photo from wherever you have stored it on your computer...
> click on 'Upload' [thumbnail 2]
...wait
... scroll down
> click on 'Close' [thumbnail 3]
The thumbnail image is now attached to the post.

Check the final result before posting to correct any errors and to fine tune the formatting (if any)...
> click on 'Preview Post' which appears underneath your post
> if satisfied, click on 'Submit Reply'

In many cases, the description alone is too limiting to allow identification so a picture is always recommended. There are no guarantees for a successful outcome but a large number of people will view the post over a period of time and it only requires one person who knows for sure to identify it.
.

[Warren]

"PW 1842" most likely refers to Prince Albert Edward (later King Edward VII) who was born in early November 1841 and was created Prince of Wales four weeks later.
It seems odd that the year would be included on a piece of clothing, unless the 'monogram' was added later for archival purposes.

[craig]

Originally Posted by Warren

"PW 1842" most likely refers to Prince Albert Edward (later King Edward VII) who was born in early November 1841 and was created Prince of Wales four weeks later.
It seems odd that the year would be included on a piece of clothing, unless the 'monogram' was added later for archival purposes.

You're correct. I found a link in verified the link is also on the Museum of London's website.
A Royal Arrival

The bed sheet I have looks the same. My only question is...How did it get to the States?

[CyrilVladisla]

A coronet is worn by a nobleman. The Duke of York is Prince Andrew of England. He is a Prince. As Duke of York, is he considered a nobleman? Does Prince Andrew have a coronet? His brother, Prince Edward is the Earl of Wessex. Does Edward have a coronet?

Royal Motto of England: Dieu et Mon Droit (God and My Right)
Motto of The Prince of Wales: Ich Dien (I serve)

Princess Diana's Badges and Royal Coronets
Diana's Badges and Royal Coronets

Ornamental coat of arms of Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian II
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...II,_Holy_Roman

[Warren]

As both are children of Queen Elizabeth II they have a "Prince or Princess - brother, sister, son or daughter of a sovereign" coronet (Fleur de lys-Maltese Cross-Fleur de lys).

1. Prince or Princess - brother, sister, son or daughter of a sovereign coronet (heraldic)
2. Princess Elizabeth's coronet frame, worn at the 1937 Coronation
3. Princess Elizabeth wearing the coronet, 1937