The will of Lord John Grimaldi of Monaco (1454)

[acid_rain3075]

My arguments are based on real facts.
If you prefer to continue to dream, please continue to dream by thinking that Monaco, a micro-state wedged in France, is a really sovereign state.

<unnecessary insult deleted - Elspeth>

Louis-le-14ème.

A dream? I'm not sure if you realize this but Monaco is a REAL sovereign state and to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous! That's like saying that Vatican City (pop. 1,000), Liechtenstein (pop. 33,400), Andorra (pop. 69,800), San Marino (pop. 28,000) are not sovereign states! May I add that that list goes on! Just because it's small and wedged into another country doesn't mean anything! If Monaco isn't a REAL nation then please explain to me why is it a member of the UN? And the Council of Europe? So, please enlighten me with your absolutely pathetic argument on how Monaco is not a sovereign state!

 

[Laviollette]

The problem with MC, imo, is that it attracts the bazaar such as predatory women, fame seekers, gold diggers, princess wanna bes, claims of paternity, 15th century legitimists who deny the French Revolution and its Republic, etc. Although Princess Grace brought glamour to and awareness of the principality, she also put it in a permanent, bazaar state of ugly celebrity; not her fault, that's just the way it has turned out. Hopefully if and when PA does finally get married she might be a woman who has a quiet and dignified nature like the prince and who is not a celebrity. I think it would bring some much needed quiet and respectability back to MC. jmo.

 

[teense]

The prince really does needs a lady who behaves with dignity.

 

[acid_rain3075]

But he also needs a woman who has some sort of celebrity fame or something, the way Grace did! Without Grace, Monaco wouldn't be the same today! She brought fame when there wasn't any before! It brought the good and the bad, but unfortunately for Monaco, it needs it to survive (imo)!

 

[Laviollette]

But he also needs a woman who has some sort of celebrity fame or something, the way Grace did! Without Grace, Monaco wouldn't be the same today! She brought fame when there wasn't any before! It brought the good and the bad, but unfortunately for Monaco, it needs it to survive (imo)!

No, no, no. Enough celebrity. Enough of the bazaar! None of the other princes of Europe married celebrities except Felipe. Liechenstein has the wonderful Princess Sophie and she is doing a wonderful job. The country is doing very well financially but also the Princely Family has a respectable public image. No one's talking about a 15th century will. There are no TR's, NC's, etc. Tourism will increase in MC with a new princess even if she's not a celebrity. Princess Diana was not a celebrity. The public grew to love her. The tragedy of her life was -- celebrity. Fame and celebrity are not everything.

 

[acid_rain3075]

A dream? I'm not sure if you realize this but Monaco is a REAL sovereign state and to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous! That's like saying that Vatican City (pop. 1,000), Liechtenstein (pop. 33,400), Andorra (pop. 69,800), San Marino (pop. 28,000) are not sovereign states! May I add that that list goes on! Just because it's small and wedged into another country doesn't mean anything! If Monaco isn't a REAL nation then please explain to me why is it a member of the UN? And the Council of Europe? So, please enlighten me with your absolutely pathetic argument on how Monaco is not a sovereign state!

I also forgot to mention The Sovereign Order of Malta. It has it's own government and everything, and is the size of a three story building. But is also considered a sovereign state!

 

[Louis14]

A dream? I'm not sure if you realize this but Monaco is a REAL sovereign state and to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous! That's like saying that Vatican City (pop. 1,000), Liechtenstein (pop. 33,400), Andorra (pop. 69,800), San Marino (pop. 28,000) are not sovereign states! May I add that that list goes on! Just because it's small and wedged into another country doesn't mean anything! If Monaco isn't a REAL nation then please explain to me why is it a member of the UN? And the Council of Europe? So, please enlighten me with your absolutely pathetic argument on how Monaco is not a sovereign state!

For the case you do not know it, please learn that Andorra is a co-principality ruled by two co-princes (the French chief of state and the Spanish bishop of Urgel).

I'm sorry to correct you, but I don't want to hurt you.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[acid_rain3075]

For the case you do not know it, please learn that Andorra is a co-principality ruled by two co-princes (the French chief of state and the Spanish bishop of Urgel).

I'm sorry to correct you, but I don't want to hurt you.

Louis-le-14ème.

Hurt me? What are you talking about? That was not the point I was making! And frankly I don't really care who rules Andorra! I know who rules it so why should know more of it! I mentioned it because it like Monaco it is small and wedged in between two countries! And yet it has managed to remain independent despite anything else! And not to mention the fact that yes the french President and this Spanish bishop may indeed be the chief of state, but Andorra is a parliamentary democracy!

 

[Louis14]

Of course I didn't take it as an insult, everything is fine, but why should an article of a Constitution have a different meaning in Consitutional Monarchy and in a Republic?
Anyway, according to your standards, that disregard the will of the Pope for religious legitimacy, the Grimaldi Family is extinguished after Caro, for lack of heirs.

It's the major weakness of the current Monegasque constitution in which one finds articles which are contradicted! These weaknesses can be exploited by all the potential heirs.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Grace]

The weakness only exists, in my opinion, if you chose to accept some articles and simply disregard some others. If you take the Constitution as a whole, you have a pretty normal succession line, without many objections by the subjects (the only ones whose opinion really counts; if you wish to deny Monaco's international subjectivity, remember also the French people don't really care about Monaco succession): Caroline, her kids, Stephanie, her kids, so the discendents of Prince Rainier and Princess Grace are there to assure the continuity of the Grimaldi.
You're left with 10, 20, 100 people top who might questions what's going on on the Rocher without any legal or political title, and who don't have any kind of power on what happens in international politics.
We can debate for centuries here, and it might be funny, frustrating, interesting at times, and still we'll have absolutely no influence on the destiny of France or Monaco;even if we all agree with you (and mind you I don't on many levels) this would have virtually no effect. Democracy has a peculiarity: like it or not, majority rules, and the majority of Monaco subjects are with Albert, Caro, Steph! I guess we will have this forum for a very long time!

Kisses

 

[pinklady1991]

The problem with MC, imo, is that it attracts the bazaar such as predatory women, fame seekers, gold diggers, princess wanna bes, claims of paternity, 15th century legitimists who deny the French Revolution and its Republic, etc. Although Princess Grace brought glamour to and awareness of the principality, she also put it in a permanent, bazaar state of ugly celebrity; not her fault, that's just the way it has turned out. Hopefully if and when PA does finally get married she might be a woman who has a quiet and dignified nature like the prince and who is not a celebrity. I think it would bring some much needed quiet and respectability back to MC. jmo.

The rogues are always so much more interesting...
That being said, the prince and princess should be amused by but not a party to the eccentricities of their subjects. JMO.

 

[Louis14]

Hurt me? What are you talking about? That was not the point I was making! And frankly I don't really care who rules Andorra! I know who rules it so why should know more of it! I mentioned it because it like Monaco it is small and wedged in between two countries! And yet it has managed to remain independent despite anything else! And not to mention the fact that yes the french President and this Spanish bishop may indeed be the chief of state, but Andorra is a parliamentary democracy!

Monaco has no armed forces.
The defence of Monaco is a responsibility of France. Andorra is in the same case. Do you think that Monaco is really sovereign?

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Grace]

Monaco has no armed forces.
The defence of Monaco is a responsibility of France. Andorra is in the same case. Do you think that Monaco is really sovereign?

Louis-le-14ème.

For the record, having an Army is not one of the conditions of sovereignty.

 

[Louis14]

Why don't you care about the purities of the monarchies in Britain, Spain, Norway and others? Because they don't have an African pretender to the throne? Because the bazaar aren't welcome or attracted to those monarchies? Like I said, imo, MC attracts too many crazed followers. Bazaar, totally bazaar. Maybe for their own sake they'll correct this celebrity dead end very soon. Only respect will ensure their survival.

French Legitimists are interested in all monarchies, in particular with the Bourbons of Spain, direct descendants of *King of France Louis XIV*.

We think that if the Prince of Asturies does not comply with the Rule of succession which excludes from the inheritance order any heir of the throne of Spain who marries a woman resulting from a non-sovereign House, then the future King of Spain should be Prince Louis de Bourbon, the elder of all the Bourbons of Spain, whose father was excluded from the throne by General Franco for the current King.

Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Laviollette]

French Legitimists are interested in all monarchies, in particular with the Bourbons of Spain, direct descendants of *King of France Louis XIV*.

We think that if the Prince of Asturies does not comply with the Rule of succession which excludes from the inheritance order any heir of the throne of Spain who marries a woman resulting from a non-sovereign House, then the future King of Spain should be Prince Louis de Bourbon, the elder of all the Bourbons of Spain, whose father was excluded from the throne by General Franco for the current King.

Louis-le-14ème.

Perhaps the legitimists will ride into Spain, overthrow democracy and install Prince Louis, whoever he is. But I must warn you, the last time someone tried that the King JC wasn't having it and things didn't work out very well for the unfortunate trouble makers. I'm pretty sure Prince Felipe would act in a similar manner.

 

[Elspeth]

I said to cool things down. Personal insults are against the rules.

This is the second warning in less than 24 hours, and it's the last. If the insults keep up, I'm going to close the thread.

 

[Suonymona]

Louis is bating people. Ignoring his deliberate (?) ignorance is best.

Ann

 

[Louis14]

I think that relations between Alexandre and some members of Grimaldi Princely Family will always be difficult because they are afraid that, as the oldest son of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco, he claims one day the throne of his father.

The concept of "illegitimate child" was abolishes from the French law. Alexandre, who was born in France, is in fact a legitimate heir of his father. The law authorizes him to bear the name Grimaldi and to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms which belong to the inheritance of his father. Almost all the noble titles of the current Grimaldi were transmitted to them by their paternal grandmother, Princess Charlotte, who was herself a natural child. Since the advent of Grimaldi in Monaco, the children born out of the wedding were never excluded from the line of succession.

Alexandre has many supports in Monaco, in France and in the whole world.
We are happy to see that the European press starts to be aligned on the legitimists arguments about the Monegasque line of succession.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

 

[WindsorIII]

Is it within PA's power to change the laws of succession? I would assume if PR could do it, that PA could also do it.

Also another thing I do not understand, I have read that people say PA could put Jasmine in line for succession bc she her birth came before the law, but Alex could not because he was born after the change in law.

What exactly is the real case here? What can and cannot be done as far as laws of succession go in Monaco?

 

[Laviollette]

Is it within PA's power to change the laws of succession? I would assume if PR could do it, that PA could also do it.

Also another thing I do not understand, I have read that people say PA could put Jasmine in line for succession bc she her birth came before the law, but Alex could not because he was born after the change in law.

What exactly is the real case here? What can and cannot be done as far as laws of succession go in Monaco?

If it was found that Prince Charles had an illegitimate child older than William, would you want that person to be put in line of succession in front of him? Think about what your saying. All illegitimate children and their children would have a claim to the thrones of Spain, Holland, Luxembourg and god knows how many others. The succession line and the laws that govern them would be changing constantly. Monarchies that have survived for 1,500, 1,000 and 700 years would not survive far into the future. They rely on heredity, continuity and stability.

 

[Grace]

I think that relations between Alexandre and some members of Grimaldi Princely Family will always be difficult because they are afraid that, as the oldest son of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco, he claims one day the throne of his father.

The concept of "illegitimate child" was abolishes from the French law. Alexandre, who was born in France, is in fact a legitimate heir of his father. The law authorizes him to bear the name Grimaldi and to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms which belong to the inheritance of his father. Almost all the noble titles of the current Grimaldi were transmitted to them by their paternal grandmother, Princess Charlotte, who was herself a natural child. Since the advent of Grimaldi in Monaco, the children born out of the wedding were never excluded from the line of succession.

Alexandre has many supports in Monaco, in France and in the whole world.
We are happy to see that the European press starts to be aligned on the legitimists arguments about the Monegasque line of succession.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

We already had this conversation, and I'll answer just once. I respect everyone's opinion, but I expect you to give facts straight and not bend them to mislead people:
1) Princess Charlotte became heiress not as an illegitimate daughter but because she was adopted by her father; had she not been adopted she wouldn't have been in the succession line (under the present Constitution adoption is not an option anymore).
2) I'm glad French law abolished the concept of "illegitimate son", but this has no influence on Monaco, and particularly on succession laws. Monaco succession laws (or those of any other Country as far as I know) have NEVER included children born out of wedlock; this state of things might change (and maybe the male preference might be abolished as well in the future), but at the moment whether France recognizes or not illegitimate children has got absolutely nothing to do with Albert's potential heir/heiress.

 

[sashajones]

Does France have legal authority of Monaco? Or, can French law make PA legitimize Alexandre? I was under the impression that the French can not make the citizens of Monaco doing anything they don't want to do. Am I wrong?

 

[pinklady1991]

Does France have legal authority of Monaco? Or, can French law make PA legitimize Alexandre? I was under the impression that the French can not make the citizens of Monaco doing anything they don't want to do. Am I wrong?

They are separate, sovereign nations ruled by separate Constitutions with completely different governments. France cannot make Monaco do anything.

 

[Louis14]

We already had this conversation, and I'll answer just once. I respect everyone's opinion, but I expect you to give facts straight and not bend them to mislead people:
1) Princess Charlotte became heiress not as an illegitimate daughter but because she was adopted by her father; had she not been adopted she wouldn't have been in the succession line (under the present Constitution adoption is not an option anymore).
2) I'm glad French law abolished the concept of "illegitimate son", but this has no influence on Monaco, and particularly on succession laws. Monaco succession laws (or those of any other Country as far as I know) have NEVER included children born out of wedlock; this state of things might change (and maybe the male preference might be abolished as well in the future), but at the moment whether France recognizes or not illegitimate children has got absolutely nothing to do with Albert's potential heir/heiress.

Princess Charlotte, even adopted by her father, was born out of wedlock and she was a natural child anyway.

If the 2002 Treaty signed by France and Monaco makes clear that the two territories are distinct and separate, it specifies also that in return, Monaco will regularly consult with France to make sure that its actions are in accordance with the interests of French politics, economics, security and defense.

Under the French law, Alexandre is a legitimate heir of his father. We are sure that the concept of "illegitimate child" which was abolished in the French law, will be abolished in the Monegasque law too.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

 

[Grace]

Could you please answer me one question? If Charlotte hadn't been adopted, would she have been in the line of succession? Alex or Jazmin can still be the heir if Albert marries one of their mothers.

As for France, usually Republics don't have succession laws; anyway, even if such laws existed, consulting doesn't mean authomatically extending rules and laws.

Kisses

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

Princess Charlotte, even adopted by her father, was born out of wedlock and she was a natural child anyway.

If the 2002 Treaty signed by France and Monaco makes clear that the two territories are distinct and separate, it specifies also that in return, Monaco will regularly consult with France to make sure that its actions are in accordance with the interests of French politics, economics, security and defense.

Under the French law, Alexandre is a legitimate heir of his father. We are sure that the concept of "illegitimate child" which was abolished in the French law, will be abolished in the Monegasque law too.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.

Legitimate heir in that he will split half of the half of Alberts fortune upon his death with his half sister Jazmin.

 

[Suonymona]

Rainier created his will under French law. Albert's will undoubtedly follow Monaco law.

Albert will be able to leave any amount he wishes (or not) to these older children. The Princely Inheritance such as the Palais, Roc Angel and other holdings will go to the legitimate heirs. Jazmin and Eric Alexandre will never be in line for them.

I suspect Albert will provide trusts for them so that they will never do without as Rainier did with Stephanie and her children.

Ann

 

[paca]

Rainier created his will under French law. Albert's will undoubtedly follow Monaco law.

Albert will be able to leave any amount he wishes (or not) to these older children. The Princely Inheritance such as the Palais, Roc Angel and other holdings will go to the legitimate heirs. Jazmin and Eric Alexandre will never be in line for them.

I suspect Albert will provide trusts for them so that they will never do without as Rainier did with Stephanie and her children.

Ann

THe Palace, stamp collection, car collection, valuable paintings etc. are not part of any heritage. They stay with whomever will be the sovereign of Monaco. They are no longer part of the princes private wealth. There are only a few appartments, shares and cash to inherit. Rainier made sure of that in his will. So de facto PA is far from being a billionaire. He sure has enough millions to take good care of all his children, but he is not even half as rich as the ratings make him out to be. He would never be able to sell any of the above mentioned. It is part of a trust and guarantees that in case of divorce claims, child support claims etc. these can not be touched.

 

[Lillia]

Rainier created his will under French law. Albert's will undoubtedly follow Monaco law.

Albert will be able to leave any amount he wishes (or not) to these older children. The Princely Inheritance such as the Palais, Roc Angel and other holdings will go to the legitimate heirs. Jazmin and Eric Alexandre will never be in line for them.

I suspect Albert will provide trusts for them so that they will never do without as Rainier did with Stephanie and her children.

Ann

Good, I'm glad that they won't be able to take over just everything, but those kids will have comfortable lives. Nothing to every worry about for them or their mothers.

BTW, I knew Albert could be around pretty woman, take a look at this lady from the post in the Albert picture thread II:
(I do not know how to just make the link to the thread)

Originally Posted by Tosca
Prince Albert and Denny Mendez (originally from Santo Domingo, elected Miss Italy in 1996) at the Made Soccer Stars Gala. (DIVAeDONNA)



[img=http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4586/forums0052uv.th.jpg]
http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forums0067we.jpg

How come PA could not have at least chosen to run around in secret with someone like that, at least this lady is pretty, imo.

 

[Louis14]

There is an article in a German tabloid about a possible succession this week. Here is a link to the summary. http://www.aktuelle.de/aktuelle/content/aktuelle_topstories.php?sid=2929

Thank you PACA.
I will add that under the French law, Alexandre is a legitimate child and that his legal and public recognition by his father also authorizes him to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms which belong to the inheritance of his father. All these noble titles, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French titles (Ex: Duc de Valentinois, Marquis des Baux...).

Alexandre, as the oldest male descendant, by male primogeniture, of Prince Rainier III and Prince Albert II, is also the future Head of Grimaldi Sovereign House of Monaco.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.