The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Muhler]

I'd like to pose a question for all the Danes out there:

Is there currently, or has there ever been any question, within Denmark, as to Frederik's suitability for the kingship?

I know of reports that he's struggled with his own self-doubt in the past, but has there ever been a time when people have not respected him?

I don't think his suitablity or should I say his qualifications has been seriously questioned. It isn't now. And certainly not since Mary entered the scene.
It was more a question of preference.

Frederik went through a crisis when he was in his early 20's in particular. During which he was very much in doubt whether he wanted to be a king. And the prospect of becoming a king wasn't something he looked forward to, to put it mildly.
That shined through in his attitude, of course.

Then Joachim married when he was in his mid 20's. Alexandra became the undisputed star of the DRF and that of course rubbed off on Joachim. Who on top of that, no matter what people may think of him, is good when it comes to appearances.
And Frederik stood there alone, outshined, with no one at his side. No one serious that is.
When he turned 30 many people said: "Will he ever grow up? - Will he ever settle down? - If we could elect our king, why not Joachim? He and Alexandra seems to be doing a fine job".

Until around 2000 I was among those who preferred Joachim. After 2000 I began to realise Frederik's human qualities. As I got older myself, other qualities were considered and preferred.
Frederik's human qualities really stood out, when Mary came and when I realised how good she is, and what a good team they are, the table turned for me.
I think he'll do fine now. - He just need some improvement and work here and there.

 

[Marengo]

is the IOC- membership a problem for the Danish heir only? What about the other royals in IOC? Have they met similar criticism in their countries??

Viv

When the prince of Orange announced his plans to join the IOC there was quite some criticism, both in the press as in parlament. He announced this in 1998 (not activated immidiately since he had to wait for the green light from The Hague), but the debate about it was postponed to 1999. In June of that year parlament had a debate about the matter, since many though the should cancel his plans. Prime Minister Wim Kok however defended the prince.

The objections mainly focussed on the corruption scandals in the IOC, and if our future head of state would or would not be compromised in working with so many corrupt people. Jacques Rogge & co investigated the IOC corruption and announced some measures, after which the prime minister allowe dthe membership of the prince to be activated.

In 1998 the announcement came as a big surprise, and apart from the corruption charges, a lot of attention was given to the fact that he only got the position due to nepotism. Apparently his staunchest supporters were NOC/NSF charwoman Erica Terpstra and his parents. Wouter Huibregsen, the original Dutch IOC candidate was angry as he claimed in an interview to the Volkskrant that the prince promissed to support him, and in the interview he called the prince a judas, coward and saboteur (statements that he would deny later on btw).

When the prince joined the comittee the criticism quickly disappeared.

-------

As for Frederiks suitability: I think that as long as people are potty trained and can eat with a fork and knive, they are suitable enough for the throne . Not all monarchs are good in holding speeches, overly clever etc. but usually they can all work out a way that makes the job suit their personality and skills.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

As for Frederiks suitability: I think that as long as people are potty trained and can eat with a fork and knive, they are suitable enough for the throne . Not all monarchs are good in holding speeches, overly clever etc. but usually they can all work out a way that makes the job suit their personality and skills.

Amen to that!

Plus, usually there are lots of unnoticed people in the background who can make up for all kind of shortcomings. Its a political / media environment where a capable Director or Communications and Strategy can do magic.

 

[Borlig]

Frederik's speaking patterns

I do agree with you Eliz.

CP Frederik has the challenge that he must not express any political views. And as an academic he might use long sentences when he is asked a question that he tries to answer without being political

But his warm personality always shows.

As a foreign academic who lived in Denmark (Copenhagen) for 12 years and learned a respectable Danish, I perceive Frederik's public speech to be influenced mostly by his being reared in Copenhagen. Foreigners trying to learn Danish soon realize that the Copenhagen dialect is very hard to understand - it comes across as mumbling with unusal and unexpected (for those not from Copenhagen) syntax. I find very little in Frederik's spontaneous public speaking that seems to be influenced by academia - it sounds like pure Copenhagenese to me!

 

[Terri Terri]

Thanks for your perspective Borlig! It is interesting to get different view points on this subject from all over the world.

 

[auntie]

As a foreign academic who lived in Denmark (Copenhagen) for 12 years and learned a respectable Danish, I perceive Frederik's public speech to be influenced mostly by his being reared in Copenhagen. Foreigners trying to learn Danish soon realize that the Copenhagen dialect is very hard to understand - it comes across as mumbling with unusal and unexpected (for those not from Copenhagen) syntax. I find very little in Frederik's spontaneous public speaking that seems to be influenced by academia - it sounds like pure Copenhagenese to me!

I admire the CPrincely couple, but even Copenhaganese people say he is a bumbler as far as speeches go, and how wonderful that Mary makes up for it...

 

[UserDane]

He can be eloquent actually. He was interviewed on TV on two occasions last week when he was leaving the handball stadium at Malmö - no sign of stumbling og mumbling - on the contrary a hint of the same 'flowery' use of the language his mother has and a nice display of humour.

 

[T4phage]

"Flowery" language?

 

[eliz]

He can be eloquent actually. He was interviewed on TV on two occasions last week when he was leaving the handball stadium at Malmö - no sign of stumbling og mumbling - on the contrary a hint of the same 'flowery' use of the language his mother has and a nice display of humour.

i don't understand danish, but indeed his replies sounded quite fluent and his humour was obvious. well maybe, as we habe already said in previous posts, it is because it was a situation in which he felt at ease, spontaneous and relaxed even if the cameras were there.
on the other hand, it is interesting that should it be the case of frederik doing better when interviewed (see also the press conference after the twins' birth) than when reading a prepared speech, then a new speech writer should be hired... (and having a speech writer is absolutely common for public figures, even a great public speaker like bill clinton has one...)

 

[UserDane]

"Flowery" language?

yes, use of metaphors, his way of describing what had just passed, it reminded me a bit of his mother's use of the Danish language

 

[MARG]

I think he is wonderful when he is caught on the fly so to speak. He is witty, humorous and not in the least stilted or boring. Now his formal speeches are another story altogether. The are rigid, remote and use a syntax and style of language more in vogue when his parents were young! Fire the speech writer or, more likely, retire him/her.

I think his marriage has done wonders for him. He has someone to love him and care for and about him and him alone. Mary seems to support Fred with ease and style and with the advent of the children people saw a whole new side to Fred. Relaxed, funny, a man who loves his family and is not afraid to show it.

The sort of distant relationship he and his mother endured seems to have been replaced with a relationship they both enjoy and his speech at her birthday was beautiful and covered all the colours that are Fred and the Mother who shaped his destiny.

TRH The Crown Prince Couple - Her Majesty the Queen's 70th birthday

 

[PrincessDianafan]

I've met him and he seems like a down to earth chap. Think he would make a good king

 

[MaggieMay]

Frederik and Mary are a great team

I don't for a minute profess to be an expert on such things.All I hope for in my heart is that the long running of the monarchy in Denmark continues and that Frederik and his wife Mary reign together as the loving couple they seem to be.I am a bit bias with Mary as I am an Australian who has watched Mary flourish in her role.In my mind I have no doubt as to Frederik's suitability and together Frederik and Mary have done everything expected of them.God Bless them both.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Joachim has been decribed as hot-tempered and moody in the past, an unbalanced Jekyll&Hyde character, unlike Frederik.

Many people wish Joachim was CP but I am in the camp who doesnt.

 

[Muhler]

Joachim has been decribed as hot-tempered and moody in the past, an unbalanced Jekyll&Hyde character, unlike Frederik.

Many people wish Joachim was CP but I am in the camp who doesnt.

Yes, he's a fascinating man, isn't he?

It's difficult to write psycological profiles about anyone but I'll give it a try.

Joachim is a man with inborn contradictions.
By all accounts he is usually a very concientious man in regards to his position and job. He is also very conservative and traditions genuinely means something to him. He is the archetypical English gentleman with a stiff upper lip.
He is in many ways very reserved and he tend to keep people at an arms length, until they have been proved reliable. So does Frederik for that matter, the difference is that it's obvious with Joachim, because he is not as "folksy" as Frederik.
I have the impression that he is a man who resemble his mother in the sense that both of them can become impationt with people who babble too much or who are silly. QMII has openly admitted she has that trait, which she labels "aunt queen talking".
Joachim is in contrast also a very passionate man. That's obvious when we see him with our Marie or his children.
Interestingly is also a man who doesn't sit in a corner, when there is a party or for that matter attending a soccer match. In such situations, he out there!

[edit-JessRulz]
His deep passion for and intensely competitive approach to racing. In my opinion that's clearly an outleft, a way to really blow off steam.
Another little demon he has, is a kind of mischievious humour. That led to Frederik getting some heat after an episode in High school, where it really was Joachim and his friends who caused trouble. - A very minor incident, but things very more quiet back then, so it caused major headlines. And his brother has, according to Joachim, been the victim of several tricks designed to cause some mischief. - Again, I don't blame him, I love to do that myself.

So yes, Frederik has an interesting personality, but so has Joachim.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Very interesting Muhler

In terms of contradiction I'd like to add that Joachim chose different type of women at different stages of his life, first Alexandra, very self confident career woman not afraid to take on the quasi-CP role when Frederik was unmarried.

Now he is back to what suited much better from the beginning for the Men's Man that Joachim is: Marie is more the adoring wifey, no career woman before Joachim, rather dangling along on what her rich family provided, very sweet, quite naive and obviously able to balance her husbands temper.

 

[Muhler]

Very interesting Muhler

In terms of contradiction I'd like to add that Joachim chose different type of women at different stages of his life, first Alexandra, very self confident career woman not afraid to take on the quasi-CP role when Frederik was unmarried.

Now he is back to what suited much better from the beginning for the Men's Man that Joachim is: Marie is more the adoring wifey, no career woman before Joachim, rather dangling along on what her rich family provided, very sweet, quite naive and obviously able to balance her husbands temper.

I have a feeling that we should be very careful about underestimating our Marie.
Both she and Joachim have stated that she can be very stubborn and certainly capable of putting her foot down. She may not be that docile after all.

 

[ricarda]

Many people wish Joachim was CP but I am in the camp who doesnt.

Do you speak of people in Denmark or people on messageboards?
Because I would say there are not many people in Denmark who wish(ed) Joachim was CP, even among those who are critical towards Frederik.
(In the last ~7 years I have only once seen that opinion expressed - in the book of "royal expert" Trine Villeman - and by the reaction her book received in Dk I dare say she did not express the opinion of "many Danes". )

There was a time more than ten years ago when Joachim was married to the popular Alexandra and was perceived as a happy responsible family man (while Frederik was still searching around and changing girlfriends) when that thought came up. But IMO it had little to do with Joachim's personality or popularity but a lot with his first wife and son. And even then the thought of Joachim as CP was not very popular (e.g. Frederik was voted most popular Dane in 1999).

In terms of contradiction I'd like to add that Joachim chose different type of women at different stages of his life, first Alexandra, very self confident career woman not afraid to take on the quasi-CP role when Frederik was unmarried.

Now he is back to what suited much better from the beginning for the Men's Man that Joachim is: Marie is more the adoring wifey, no career woman before Joachim, rather dangling along on what her rich family provided, very sweet, quite naive and obviously able to balance her husbands temper.

I too find it quite interesting that he has chosen so different women. But I actually think Marie is very self-confident as well and not quite so naive (but rather someone who charmingly can talk herself out of any risky situation - as her schoolmaster put it - and you need intelligence for that). IMO Alexandra was more modern: ambitious, independent and out-spoken. Marie is more the "old-fashioned" manipulative type who gives her husband the impression he is the "man in the house" while she quietly does whatever she wants. (I am half Italian and Marie reminds me of many women in my family ).

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Do you speak of people in Denmark or people on messageboards?

MBs. Joachim is often described there as regal and a character and, especially if he was still married to Alex, would be the better CP. I prefer Frederik by a mile, one reason being what Muhler described as his "folksy" attitude.

 

[ricarda]

I agree with you. Frederik may not be the most elegant or eloquent prince but he has the ability to emotionally connect with the (Danish) people which IMO is essential for a monarch. Joachim with all his qualities just doesn't have this ability.

 

[nwinther]

Because I would say there are not many people in Denmark who wish(ed) Joachim was CP, even among those who are critical towards Frederik.
(In the last ~7 years I have only once seen that opinion expressed - in the book of "royal expert" Trine Villeman - and by the reaction her book received in Dk I dare say she did not express the opinion of "many Danes". )

While I'm surely a minority, I can attest to that sentiment. IMO, Joachim would be a superiour king compared to Frederik. Sure, I accept Frederik as my eventual Sovereign - especially as he is reinforced by the presence of a most excellent wife and queen. But I would still think Joachim would be better for the job.

So - now you've seen it twice.

 

[ricarda]

Well, I wrote "not many".
And we have a saying in my country: "A king, who finds"
It was Frederik who found Mary and supported her in a way so she could become what she is today.

Joachim - I experienced him in real life and found him very unappealing/arrogant/stiff (this was just a 15 minute impression of course, I don't really know him). But I really can't see what would make him a superior king. After all a main part of the job is to represent. And it's never good when a representative gives the impression of arrogance.

 

[Muhler]

Well, I wrote "not many".
And we have a saying in my country: "A king, who finds"
It was Frederik who found Mary and supported her in a way so she could become what she is today.

Joachim - I experienced him in real life and found him very unappealing/arrogant/stiff (this was just a 15 minute impression of course, I don't really know him). But I really can't see what would make him a superior king. After all a main part of the job is to represent. And it's never good when a representative gives the impression of arrogance.

In the eyes of the beholder perhaps?
I'd say people of different gender, background or age can have a very different look on someone.

Let's start with his appearance.
I may be "environmentally damaged" but I respect someone who do the extra effort in doing things correctly, also when it comes to dressing and behaving correctly. "Fashionable casual" doesn't impress me.
It's my impression that such people also go the extra mile in regards to their homework. And I find it appropriate that people dress up for the occasion (and in order to represent what they come from. In Joachim's case DK and the DRF) rather than people who dress up more casual or "folksy", if you like. What they are really saying is: "Look at meee"! (Or worse: "I don't really care") It's disrespect for the occasion.
Whether we aknowledge it or not, appearance is important.

His work.
Whatever the subject may be, I'll dare anyone to come up with an example in the past fifteen years or so, where Joachim were asked questions about something he attended, which he couldn't answer. Or was unable to talk at length about the same subject. He does his homework properly and I respect that as well.
However mindboglingly tedious an event J. is attending appears to be, he always appear interested. There are no blank stares or sleepy eyes. That's good representation. That's what I expect from a man in his position.

Articulate.
Yes, Joachim is blessed with the gift of being articulate. I'd still say that it takes work and preparation to be good at something. Your talent will only get you this far.
I'll also say that being articulate comes with growing confidence. Confidence in knowing that you are well prepared and from past victories.

Folksy.
Admitted, in the eyes of many (mostly women perhaps?) Joachim appear arrogant and stiff. Have you ever considered that it might be his "shield"? His professional distance, if you like.
That a man appears arrogant may not be because he really is arrogant, it may be because he is not comfortable with you getting too close. In his position it may not be a good idea to be too "folksy". Especially considering the tasks he usually undertakes. I.e. business, commerce and diplomatic representation.

I genuinely respect people who are good at what they do and who do their best when they are on the job. That's why I respect Mary so much.

King.
Joachim is not a "man of the people" and he shouldn't try to be, he will only fail. That doesn't mean he would be a poor king. I'm in no doubt that Joachim would be a very competent king, had the tables been turned.
But Frederik would still be more popular, I'm certain about that.
Popularity is not the same as competence. Popularity is a tenous thing, it can so easily evaporate. Being popular is not the same as being respected. - We need to keep that in mind and sometimes look inside the person, no matter how much or how little we may like him personally.

The real test of any monarch comes when the people look at him/her for guidance.

 

[ricarda]

[edit-JessRulz]

I am actually not very interested in Joachim and don't have the time to discuss him.
The only interesting question for me is: why do some (few) think he would make a superior king than Frederik?
I said Joachim didn't make a good impression on me. I never said he isn' t doing his homework. Probably he would be competent as a king.
But superior to Frederik? Not in my opinion.

I don't think popularity just happens, it's based on certain abilities. I think it's possible to be respected without being popular, but I don't think it's possible to be (or stay) popular without being respected. And as popularity "can so easily evaporate" (Joachim is a good example for that) I think it's actually a sign of competence to stay so popular for so long (as Frederik does).

But until that test of any monarch comes along - which IMO Frederik would pass much better than Joachim (whom his first wife, the very intelligent Alexandra, attested the backbone of a gummibear) - we can just agree to disagree.

 

[nwinther]

You have some very good points Muhler. I especially like your "arrogance" interpretation, where some apparantly find J to come off as arrogant in certain situations, I find Frederik to come off as fidgity, insecure, confused and even scared. Seeing him and Mary in Aalborg after the wedding, he seemed like a deer caught in the headlights when walking slong the spectators.

With J, I get a feeling of a person who can grasp and manage a situation - even a stressful one. Frederik rarely seems in control and never in a comfortable way.

When it comes to popularity, sure it's nice for a powerful man to also be popular. But "man of the people" isn't what I'm looking up to in a king. If you look at Churchill, he was very popular. But he was also extremely arrogant and miles away from being a "man of the people" in the "folksy" sense. I think the right word is "dignity", and J just seems more dignified than F.

 

[lyndaW]

Mr Muhler,
Your posts are very senstive & insightful about Joachim

All the other Royal famalies interact with each other and get to know each other..........however Joachim seems to never be invitated to any Royal events and doesn;t seem to have any friends from the other Royal Houses......he wasn't even invitated to the Greek wedding (his owns first cousins)....Benedicktte could have been Regent. Now another family wedding is coming up of another first cousin, Nathalie ........

He and Marie (both speaking French) would be a delight at the Monaco wedding........but I bet he won't be invitated

Is their a reason he is always excluded from royal events ?

 

[SweetRomanza]

Joachim was @ the royal wedding in Greece last year. Frederik was the absentee.

 

[lyndaW]

Joachim was @ the royal wedding in Greece last year. Frederik was the absentee.

Thank you, I forgot he and Marie were their

 

[Muhler]

Mr Muhler,
Your posts are very senstive & insightful about Joachim

All the other Royal famalies interact with each other and get to know each other..........however Joachim seems to never be invitated to any Royal events and doesn;t seem to have any friends from the other Royal Houses......he wasn't even invitated to the Greek wedding (his owns first cousins)....Benedicktte could have been Regent. Now another family wedding is coming up of another first cousin, Nathalie ........

He and Marie (both speaking French) would be a delight at the Monaco wedding........but I bet he won't be invitated

Is their a reason he is always excluded from royal events ?

Thank you Mrs. LyndaW

SweetRomanza has already answered in regards to the Greek wedding.

I don't know how much the secondary royals interact. Not that much I guess.
The CP couples from DK, Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands have certainly developed a close relationship and considering their position it's not only a good thing, it's wise as well.
Joachim will certainly know the Greek royals well from childhood but apart from the occasional family gathering I don't think they see eachother much. Nor do the Greek royals see that much of M&F for that matter.
I've heard Joachim has a good relationship with Prince Edward, but whether they are actual friends I don't know.
The secondary Swedish royals don't seem to have many royal friends either, not even M&F, whom they both know very well,
So it's a question how much the secondary royals associate at all?

Well, I do think J&M will go to the wedding in Monaco, if for no other reason that Mary will still be on maternity leave by then.

As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.

 

[missMaryanne]

Joachim has been decribed as hot-tempered and moody in the past, an unbalanced Jekyll&Hyde character, unlike Frederik.

Many people wish Joachim was CP but I am in the camp who doesnt.

i agree with you. i don't think an unbalanced character is what a future king needs.

i also think that a weak character is very bad on a future king. a future king needs to be strong, but sensitive at the same time.

and sometimes i think frederik is a little bit underestimated.