The British Royal Family: Race & Racism

[Muhler]

Indeed. I think the mutual views have been presented adequately. ?

Let's take a break from this discussion to reflect. Meghan won't run anywhere any day soon.

 

[PetticoatLane]

I would like to echo what Muhler said, however, at what I see as the reasons some people in the UK might have reservations about Meghan.

In my discussions with friends and family about Meghan marrying Harry, keeping in mind that most people are not very interested in royals at all, her race was never an issue. Of the very, very few who had a negative response their reasons ranged from, she's only in it for the increased fame and fortune, to there's no way this kind of life will make her happy.

These are the very same negative accusations that Kate has been subject to. Kate's biggest challenge is in demonstrating she has what it takes not only to be a royal but a future Queen, expectations of her are higher in that way than they will be with Meghan.

Meghan's biggest challenge will be in convincing the British people that she's one of us - i.e. that she gets the British people and feels herself to be British too, not because she has to but because she wants to. I see similar questions have been asked for decades of Henrik in Denmark as I read a bit about him this past week - is he really Danish? Would he really prefer to be French but with the trappings of a royal? Does he see Denmark as home or is he longing for his homeland? This is what Meghan will experience too and the race question doesn't really feature much at all.

 

[Royal Suitor]

I get a feeling that some Americans are transferring the issues their nation has with race over to the UK, a country they know next to NOTHING about.

Perhaps you didn't mean for this to sound condescending, but speaking for myself as an American poster, it did. I enjoy the fact that this forum is a global community and hope others do as well. I've learned a lot about the history and traditions of the BRF and that knowledge hasn't been exclusive to British members.

We have racism here but this is a country that's very different to the US and so opinions and assumptions about one don't automatically and perfectly apply to the other.

Great point!Different histories and demographics do mean that racism will likely take different forms in the respective countries. That's what I'm hoping to learn more about in this specific thread.

What I do resent, is the Americans who post in this thread with a rather strong undercurrent of teaching us little backward British people just how racist we are. Or that Meghan is any more likely to face racial prejudice in this country than her home country, which is something no one can know.

Again, I will only speak for myself. From the time the engagement was announced, I've seen British media and quite a few posters here (not necessarily you) proclaim that Meghan being biracial was no big deal and is almost a non-factor in today's colorblind modern British society. The implicit and often explicit end to that sentiment has been...unlike in the U.S. So I juxtapose that with articles about "(almost) straight out of Compton", "tainted" or "exotic" blood, and from plantation to palace, that seem to say no actually Meghan being biracial is kind of a big deal here too. This doesn't include the DF comment section which we'll just throw out.

As a non-Brit, I wouldn't presume to try to educate British people on "just how racist [they] are". But I believe this relationship is holding a mirror up to how British society treats a woman of color entering the BRF. That reflection is being viewed worldwide. I think there's value in hearing what that global reflection looks like. In particular, since Meghan's views on race are primarily shaped by her American upbringing, I would hope insight into that American perspective would be valuable as well.

 

[ACO]

What I do resent, is the Americans who post in this thread with a rather strong undercurrent of teaching us little backward British people just how racist we are. Or that Meghan is any more likely to face racial prejudice in this country than her home country, which is something no one can know.

And I am sure British POC would resent the downplay of racism. I listen to quite a few podcasts of Black Brits and they would strongly disagree with your comments. In fact I was watching The Pledge not that long ago and one of the panelist is a biracial woman who spoke very frankly about racism in the UK and how frustrated she was when some want to act like it hardly exists. So while I can see your POV, I don't really agree with it.

 

[Osipi]

What makes this discussion so interesting and so informative is that we come from all over and bring into the discussion our own views from our own personal experiences with the focus being one one person that is (as I like to see it) breaking the barriers when it comes to the British royal family.

Someone that lives in Chicago (for example) and witnesses day in and day out discrimination and racism is going to be more affected by the issue than, for example, my experiences where I live now where racism and discrimination is very low. Its one blessing that I'm grateful for. Someone in their 20s and 30s and facing the inequalities and discrimination in the housing system or the school system will have a different perspective on racism than one that is old and remembers growing up in a mostly segregated environments and witnessed the first inroads to desegregation and the problems that resulted. Someone in Britain draws from the British experience and that is what influences their mindset. Its different totally from the US mindset in many ways we're learning about.

What is true for one person may serve to teach and inform and through that we widen our perspectives and are more educated to modify, affirm and perhaps even change how we all view racism and discrimination. This is a safe place for all of us to join together and discuss and to me, this is one of the most informative threads to participate in.

To Muhler: I always associated potatoes with the Irish. I do remember too that there was a time when a popular sign out and about was "Help Wanted: Irish Need Not Apply". I didn't witness this myself but know of it mainly from those that keep the memory alive in song. History is part and parcel of who we are, where we come from and rarely is forgotten and shouldn't be.

 

[Lady Reem]

Perhaps you didn't mean for this to sound condescending, but speaking for myself as an American poster, it did. I enjoy the fact that this forum is a global community and hope others do as well. I've learned a lot about the history and traditions of the BRF and that knowledge hasn't been exclusive to British members.



Great point!Different histories and demographics do mean that racism will likely take different forms in the respective countries. That's what I'm hoping to learn more about in this specific thread.



Again, I will only speak for myself. From the time the engagement was announced, I've seen British media and quite a few posters here (not necessarily you) proclaim that Meghan being biracial was no big deal and is almost a non-factor in today's colorblind modern British society. The implicit and often explicit end to that sentiment has been...unlike in the U.S. So I juxtapose that with articles about "(almost) straight out of Compton", "tainted" or "exotic" blood, and from plantation to palace, that seem to say no actually Meghan being biracial is kind of a big deal here too. This doesn't include the DF comment section which we'll just throw out.

As a non-Brit, I wouldn't presume to try to educate British people on "just how racist [they] are". But I believe this relationship is holding a mirror up to how British society treats a woman of color entering the BRF. That reflection is being viewed worldwide. I think there's value in hearing what that global reflection looks like. In particular, since Meghan's views on race are primarily shaped by her American upbringing, I would hope insight into that American perspective would be valuable as well.

Quoted for truth ?

 

[Lady Reem]

And I am sure British POC would resent the downplay of racism. I listen to quite a few podcasts of Black Brits and they would strongly disagree with your comments. In fact I was watching The Pledge not that long ago and one of the panelist is a biracial woman who spoke very frankly about racism in the UK and how frustrated she was when some want to act like it hardly exists. So while I can see your POV, I don't really agree with it.

I listen too and completely agree with all this.

Cloak of anonymity aside, I think people reveal true colours online, it’s certainly been a real eye opener for me.

 

[MaiaMia_53]

2

I'm praying that security forces will have everything in control to protect the safety of everyone at Windsor on Harry & Meghan's wedding day.

For some reflection and deeper understanding of how the manmade construction of race actually affects us all and is part of the fabric of America, and indeed the world, try to take a look at a must-see documentary film, James Baldwin: I Am Not Your Negro. The film is directed by Haitian filmmaker, Raoul Peck, and narrated by Samuel L. Jackson. It was nominated for an Academy Award last year for Best Documentary Feature. The award in that category went to OJ: Made in America, but I think Peck's powerful film should have won. Interestingly, Peck's film won a British Academy Film award for best documentary this month, as it was probably released in Britain last year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Not_Your_Negro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Peck

The film has also won a number of film festival awards around the world, including the People's Choice Award at the 2016 Toronto International Film Festival.

 

[ACO]

Here is an article about British women of color talking about Meghan and UK racism. It pretty much sums up a lot of what I was trying to say and touched on the UK vs US debate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...ent-prince-harry-exposes-quiet-racism-n825516

 

[Muhler]

To Muhler: I always associated potatoes with the Irish. I do remember too that there was a time when a popular sign out and about was "Help Wanted: Irish Need Not Apply". I didn't witness this myself but know of it mainly from those that keep the memory alive in song. History is part and parcel of who we are, where we come from and rarely is forgotten and shouldn't be.

Yes, I once read the Irish being described as, pardon me, "white n*ggers". Considering how there was a deliberate news-blackout about the Potato Famine in the 1830's, combined with the government doing nothing, I think that description is pretty correct.

Racism, as a general term can take many forms, often it is simply about making sure someone else is kept lower in the pecking order.
I saw a most interesting historical programme the other day, about Jews. They had been invited to Denmark in the early 1700's. After initial reservations and restrictions they had by the latter half of the 1800's been assimilated and mostly worked themselves into respectable positions.
Then a pogrom in Russia send around 10.000 Jews to Denmark. They were expected to come under the wings of their already established fellow Jews here.
Weeell, the Danish Jews ended up doing a raffle buying tickets to USA for the Russians. Only some 1.500 Russians ended up not accepting being shipped out of the way. Those who remained got next to no help from Danish Jews, who had absolutely no wish to being compared to the Russian Jews! Not to mention associating or (good grief!) intermarrying with them.

Before WWI five from my family migrated to USA. One of them married into an affluent family, but on the condition that he severed his ties with his Danish family. One immigrant-riff-raff in the family was more than enough!

 

[Denville]

Muhler, You She thinks it is all "show" on her part. To say I really was sucker-punched is putting it mildly. Plus her husband agreed although the husband was really worse in pulling apart Meghan, a person none of them knew personally. It was almost like a jealousy. I don't get it. And, like I said they were not racist as they are Black. They just don't like Meghan and don't wish her well. I always thought they were a lovely couple originally from the Virgin Islands.

er why does it mean that People are awful people if they don't like Meghan? So they don't like her and wish her well? I doubt if they actively wish her harm.. so why shouldn't they be negative towards her if they don't like her?

 

[Osipi]

A lot of people, at the beginning of the relationship, didn't care for Meghan one bit because of a preconceived "Hollywood tinsel town type" that can be stereotypical of actresses. The "Hollywood" culture isn't one that is looked on as a moral example for our children. Most likely these people Winnie talked to put her in that category with that label. I've heard "gold digger" and "status seeking" among various other statements to describe Meghan at the onset. Racial slurs were actually just a part of it all.

Its easy to formulate a specific mindset and group people into neat little boxes with various labels on them.

 

[Muhler]

You can IMO find all sorts of prejudices in the resentments expressed about Meghan - if you look for them and interpret them in the desired direction.

It would be no problem for me to present a very convincing argument saying that the resentments expressed are mainly based on anti-American feelings. And back that up with carefully selected and presented comments, articles and links to sites where Meghan is thrashed.
Any references someone would come with referring to race would be explained away with Meghan being African-American. And me coming up with arguments saying that had Meghan come from say Kenya or Manchester, race wouldn't even be an issue.

Or I could present an equally convincing argument saying that the resentments against Meghan is basically based on a strong prevalent tall-poppy syndrome among blacks in USA backed up by the serious social issues that is a fact of large segments of the black communities. The logic being: If we are not going to succeed in the "white man's world", no one is going to succeed! And that includes Meghan.
To back up that claim, I will present you with carefully selected and well interpreted articles, quotes and comments...


Or another alternative: I could present an argument saying that the resentment towards Meghan is based in the strong class-system that is still dominating the British society. And which are still not addressed. Where people who move from one class to another are deeply resented as unworthy of that move. I will back that up with arguments telling you that Meghan is moving up from a lower class into the top, and in a deeply hierarchical society as the British that is deeply resented, both by those whose class she is moving into, and those classes she is passing. But certainly also the class she is leaving. The class she is abandoning to become "one of them". A kind of reverse snobbery if you will.

And so on and so on...

It's all a matter of how the Devil reads the Bible.

You can find misgivings about Meghan that will back up every little pet theory there is. And also about Kate for that matter.

So I say again: If you look for proof of racism towards Meghan you will find it.

 

[PetticoatLane]

And I am sure British POC would resent the downplay of racism. I listen to quite a few podcasts of Black Brits and they would strongly disagree with your comments. In fact I was watching The Pledge not that long ago and one of the panelist is a biracial woman who spoke very frankly about racism in the UK and how frustrated she was when some want to act like it hardly exists. So while I can see your POV, I don't really agree with it.

Where have I done this? My posts keep being deliberately misinterpreted on this thread. I have never denied racism in the UK, I have specifically said that I have no doubt there's lots of it as there is prejudice of every stripe. The current UK government (a right-wing Conservative one) recently commissioned a black MP of the left-wing Labour party to investigate racism in the UK justice system and essentially accepted the big majority of its conclusions and recommendations.

Could you imagine this happening in the US? Would a Republican president ask a black Democrat to investigate racism in the US justice system, let alone take up pretty much all of its recommendations? My guess is probably not.

My experience has been that much of the opposition to Meghan, such that it is, is not really racial at all. It's the fact that she's a celebrity from Hollywood who seemingly came out of nowhere and is going to have to make such enormous changes to her lifestyle, her career, her public persona, let alone her nationality as to make it very possible that this all ends in tears.

There are always exceptions, look under enough rocks and you'll find dirt. There is an element though of some of Meghan's supporters, in my opinion, seeing racism in every single criticism that's made of her no matter what it is. I think that's wrong and does Meghan no favours at all.

 

[Denville]

I'm sure there are people who are against Meghan simply or mainly because of her raceial origins.. but equally there are probably people who don't take to her, because of her being American, or moving up in class, or her being an actress or a "blogger/personality" or just don't like her.. People dislike people. Its human nature and there often is no reason for it.

 

[Royal Suitor]

You can IMO find all sorts of prejudices in the resentments expressed about Meghan

On this I think we agree. This relationship is a microcosm of so many social science issues that any one could be a master's thesis. Racism, classism, and xenophobia specifically of the anti-American variety are the easy ones. I was surprised by the criticism of acting as a profession. I guess I never gave the scene in the movie Notting Hill where they compared acting to prostitution enough credence.

So I say again: If you look for proof of racism towards Meghan you will find it.

So no, I don't think every negative opinion of Meghan is about race or that every person who doesn't like her is a racist. I've seen real examples of all the critiques above. All-encompassing cries of racism are just as problematic as vague critiques that "she looks like trouble". But I do think racism, like these other biases, is a very real factor for Meghan. I guess where we differ is I don't think it requires CSI level forensic investigation to see racism. It is more often the elephant in the room.

Muhler, I'll let someone else tackle your "tall poppy" theory. Just know that I strongly disagree with the premise.
----------------------------

If someone is actually looking for a thesis topic , here are a few more that have (re)surfaced since Meghan's introduction that I wish were more discussed...

- How would Meghan be accepted if she didn't fit a more Eurocentric beauty ideal?
- Colorism and biracial identity within the black community
- Is feminist princess an oxymoron?
- What is the American Dream? The U.S. was founded on anti-monarchist ideals yet some insist that Meghan is living the American Dream by marrying a prince
- Celebritization of the BRF. When Princes are appearing in Star Wars, is Meghan the last straw or a sign of the times?

 

[ACO]

So I say again: If you look for proof of racism towards Meghan you will find it.

There are always exceptions, look under enough rocks and you'll find dirt. There is an element though of some of Meghan's supporters, in my opinion, seeing racism in every single criticism that's made of her no matter what it is. I think that's wrong and does Meghan no favours at all.

Not like one has to look very hard when it is on display daily. Again I am not claiming every issue that some have with Meghan is racial. That is ridiculous. I just don't get some of this need to downplay that a good portion is and frankly it is head scratching. Official police calling an incident a racist hate crime and we have people bending over backwards to say "I don't think it really was..." That doesn't help anymore than some seeing racism in all critiques. I think in that we can at least agree.

 

[Osipi]

Well.... I learned something new today. I honestly had never, ever heard of the "tall poppy" expression and actually had to go look it up.

Definition for those as confused as I am, its "a perceived tendency to discredit or disparage those who have achieved notable wealth or prominence in public life."

My feelings on it is best quoted by my favorite Ralph which is "In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him." I just don't buy into the thinking that anyone is any better or any worse than anyone else. I'm still scratching my head trying to comprehend the British class system which I know still very much exists.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I think to an extent we are discussing two differs things.

There are indeed racists writing about Meghan and what they write is indeed informed by their beliefs about people of color being less than whites.

But we are also discussing our evaluations of what is being written/said about Meghan. This is our impression or opinion of what we see as racism (or not) in the discourse. And like it or not, this is all opinion about the intent of the writer/speaker to act as a racist. And like all opinions, we will never all agree, though we try darn hard on the Forums to persuade.

It's a quagmire of discourse because people bring their own interpretation to anything written.

I think the goal has to be sensitivity toward others and acceptance of difference. Because that's the only way forward. Maybe we need to quit disagreeing about nuance and accept that more than our opinion can have validity.

Which would mean that there is both racism and personal attack being used to sell clicks about Meghan. But there is also personal admiration being used to sell clicks about Meghan. JMO

 

[Pranter]

What I have seen is if someone has a criticism of Meghan often folks jump to 'they must be racist' if they say those things about Meghan. There's no pause or hesitation either...no consideration that the person simply doesn't like Meghan's acting background or her social status (I mean look what they did to Kate and her family due to the perceived 'lower social status').

Everyone needs to stop being so quick on the trigger to cry racism. Look at the person saying it...do they have a history of racism? Do they have a legitimate view even if you don't agree with it?

I get to the point when I just roll my eyes when I hear someone saying oh they don't like Meghan being married into the BRF cause they are racist. It's a knee jerk reaction.


LaRae

 

[Rudolph]

It’s almost as if some Meghan supporters think she’s so perfect that to not like her means you must be a racist of some sort.

As others point out, it doesn’t do Meghan any good because it just builds resentment with people who have legitimate concerns about her, even if not everyone agrees with the concerns.

 

[ACO]

I don't think anyone thinks Meghan is perfect. No one is. I know not all the comments toward her is about race. Other than being a woman of color she is American, divorced, 36 years old, and an actress. Some have issues with one or all of those. Some hate her purely because she is with Harry. No denying that. But also no denying some truly do loathe her because of the color of her skin as well and some have publicly made that clear.

I understand the frustrations on both sides of the argument.

 

[Pranter]

I generally like Meghan although at first I was skeptical about her, however the more I have learned about her the more I like her and see what type of asset she will be to the BRF and obviously she makes Harry very happy too.

I don't assume someone is racist because they dislike her. If someone is rational and can explain why they don't like her I'm willing to read/hear their view.


LaRae

 

[Muhler]

On this I think we agree. This relationship is a microcosm of so many social science issues that any one could be a master's thesis. Racism, classism, and xenophobia specifically of the anti-American variety are the easy ones. I was surprised by the criticism of acting as a profession. I guess I never gave the scene in the movie Notting Hill where they compared acting to prostitution enough credence.

Historically it's only a little more than a 100 years ago actresses were considered little better than common prostitutes. - Some actually were, simply to survive.
That only changed when silent movies became popular.

So no, I don't think every negative opinion of Meghan is about race or that every person who doesn't like her is a racist. I've seen real examples of all the critiques above. All-encompassing cries of racism are just as problematic as vague critiques that "she looks like trouble". But I do think racism, like these other biases, is a very real factor for Meghan. I guess where we differ is I don't think it requires CSI level forensic investigation to see racism. It is more often the elephant in the room.

Muhler, I'll let someone else tackle your "tall poppy" theory. Just know that I strongly disagree with the premise.
----------------------------

If someone is actually looking for a thesis topic , here are a few more that have (re)surfaced since Meghan's introduction that I wish were more discussed...

1 - How would Meghan be accepted if she didn't fit a more Eurocentric beauty ideal?
2 - Colorism and biracial identity within the black community
3 - Is feminist princess an oxymoron?
4 - What is the American Dream? The U.S. was founded on anti-monarchist ideals yet some insist that Meghan is living the American Dream by marrying a prince
5 - Celebritization of the BRF. When Princes are appearing in Star Wars, is Meghan the last straw or a sign of the times?

These are actually great topics for discussion. ? I allowed myself to number them.
1 - Well, it sure wouldn't make it easier!
2 - That's not really for me to say to be honest. (Even though I suggested it as reason for basic resentment.) However, it is a sad phenomenon in immigrant ghettos here in Europe that there is a tendency to hold down immigrants who "study too much", who have "too high ambitions" and who become "too integrated". And those who hold them back are fellow immigrants. - Considering the social problems in many black communities in America, could that be a reason for a major resentment towards Meghan?
3 - No doubt! Especially for hardcore feminists who tend to overthink things. And use their own standard as a measure for everything else, without regards for the context. - "-ist's" of all sorts tend to that.
4 - In my experience a good many Americans deeply resent the monarchy as an institution while being attracted to the splendor.
5 - That I think is behind a lot of the resentment!

There is one more cause for resentment that hasn't been touched here: The Wallis Simpson syndrome.
That is something I imagine especially those of our resident Britons, who are not too impressed with Meghan have in the back of their minds.

- Oh by the way. I did find an elephant in our living room, a small one, it hid besides the cupboard.
Yeah, yeah, I know, bad Muhler. ?

 

[Winnie]

er why does it mean that People are awful people if they don't like Meghan? So they don't like her and wish her well? I doubt if they actively wish her harm.. so why shouldn't they be negative towards her if they don't like her?

I never said that people are awful if they don't like a person [there are many that I personally find a lot mean] but to loudly in a bistro wish someone ill and hope the marriage flops when no one asked their opinion, to me is really odd. If you don't like someone that you never met, fine, but to have their photo on a TV affect your own conduct and outward behavior in a public place when no one even asked your opinion. It is really not normal. JMO Plus most Americans really don't care. Her marriage to Harry will never change their lives. They will watch both pretty weddings this year if they have nothing better to do mostly to see the fashions and then go about their day. This really sweet couple just shocked me and others at close tables with their vitriol mouths. Sorry now I even shared that with you all.

 

[Pranter]

There is one more cause for resentment that hasn't been touched here: The Wallis Simpson syndrome.

That is something I imagine especially those of our resident Britons, who are not too impressed with Meghan have in the back of their minds.

Muhler at this day and age I don't get the Wallis Syndrome stuff....there have been several Americans marry into the British Aristo families without the drama etc. Not to mention lots of Americans just marrying Brits (commoners)...and Brits marrying Americans. I find it hard to believe that almost 100 years later folks are worried that Meghan is going to be a Wallis in some way or another. I mean really? The Monarchy isn't even the same institution as it was then...everything is different.



LaRae

 

[Muhler]

Muhler at this day and age I don't get the Wallis Syndrome stuff....there have been several Americans marry into the British Aristo families without the drama etc. Not to mention lots of Americans just marrying Brits (commoners)...and Brits marrying Americans. I find it hard to believe that almost 100 years later folks are worried that Meghan is going to be a Wallis in some way or another. I mean really? The Monarchy isn't even the same institution as it was then...everything is different.

LaRae

Perhaps.
However, keep in mind that the BRF pretty recently went through two most unpleasant and damaging divorces. I'm not British, so I can't claim that is a major concern among Britons. I strongly suspect it is though.
It sure is something that has been in the back of my mind with the recent marriages within my own royal family.
We can debate endlessly whether Wallis Simpson was a blessing in disguise, but in the 30's people sure didn't think so!

 

[soapstar]

I've deleted the discussion surrounding Kate Hawksbury. Her article about Meghan has already been posted and debated in another thread and members were asked to move on from the discussion. Also, let's be mindful of this rule:

• Accusations of racism against any member of the forum, journalists/reporters or other entities outside of the forum will be removed - members are requested to report any posts they take issue with rather than responding to them within the thread.

 

[soapstar]

This is a good time to remind everyone of the rules for this thread.

This thread will be moderated carefully and the following rules will apply to the thread without exception:

1. Posts deemed to be of a racist/prejudiced nature or could be construde as being racist/prejudiced will be removed without notice.
2. Posts made or deemed to be made with an agenda to attract negative responses or to disrupt the discussion will also be removed.
3. Accusations of racism against any member of the forum, journalists/reporters or other entities outside of the forum will be removed - members are requested to report any posts they take issue with rather than responding to them within the thread.
4. Disrespectful posts made accusing other posters of being a part of "the PC brigade", "snowflakes", "SJWs", etc will be removed.
5. Members are reminded to be respectful of one another and to pay particular attention to the sensitivity of the subject.

Failure to comply with the above may result in membership being suspended, and with further violation of the rules resulting in a possible ban.

Please be aware that in the event the Moderation Team feel this thread has outlived its usefulness or that the discussion cannot continue, the thread will be closed and not reopened.

 

[Curryong]

Not sure that this is the right thread, but this is just awful.

An Australian news report about the level of abuse, racial and otherwise, that Royal reporters have noted coming in Meghan's direction. Also how some of them have received threats via tweets, including acid attack over reports they filed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...id-on-abuse-levelled-at-meghan-markle/9496132