Richard III (1452-1485): Discovery of Remains and Reburial


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What's the betting that they approach the Richard III Society for the funds. The bars around it will probably ensure that he is not disturbed again . :) :)
 
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Well they could put him back where they found him and pave over it, then the Richard III Society wouldnt have to worry about anyone asking them for money for his tomb. Even the original plan by the Cathedral would be less costly than this tomb which some section of public opinion seems to think he deserves.
 
I don't, think the society would be bothered if they were approached for the money. I should imagine that given the time it took to raise the original amount, 1million may be only slightly more of a challenge! Personally I don't, like either the new design or the society's original, but I can appreciate that I may be alone in that.
 
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How exciting that there are more discoveries to be had at the site, but I suppose the area is rich in archeological finds.
 
How exciting that there are more discoveries to be had at the site, but I suppose the area is rich in archeological finds.

Yes indeed,I had thought that everything would have been destroyed when the Friary was dissolved and torn down.From reading more on its history Grey Friars Leicester founding is credited to Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester in 1224.
 
I notice the White Queen on BBC has chosen not to show Richard as the out and out killer of the princes, a bit dubious, any Richard III society people here? I think he must have done it, the Tudors were too far removed at the time whereas Richard had the motive and opportunity and proclaimed himself King plus why would the former Queen marry her daughter to the killers of her sons? she must have turned on Richard for the murder
 
I notice the White Queen on BBC has chosen not to show Richard as the out and out killer of the princes, a bit dubious,

That would be because the book, The White Queen doesn't state that Richard III was the killer of the two boys. The show is based on the book afterall.
 
I notice the White Queen on BBC has chosen not to show Richard as the out and out killer of the princes, a bit dubious, any Richard III society people here? I think he must have done it, the Tudors were too far removed at the time whereas Richard had the motive and opportunity and proclaimed himself King plus why would the former Queen marry her daughter to the killers of her sons? she must have turned on Richard for the murder


Why did she allow her daughter to spend so much time at court when Richard III was king if she knew he was the murderer of her sons even to the point where there were suggestions that he was thinking about taking Elizabeth as a second wife?

Possible answers -

1. mother didn't know what happened to her sons and had no fears about her brother-in-law

2. she knew what had happened to her sons and that he wasn't involved

3. she was a pragmatist who was more interested in advancing her family than worrying about what had happened to those no longer with her.

Remember we don't actually know what happened to the boys - we don't know that they were murdered at all and if they were we don't know when - they could just as easily have been alive when Henry VII seized the throne and then he had them killed to shore up his own claim along with marrying Elizabeth to join the two sides into one through the first born son being heir to both York and Lancaster - he couldn't do that if the boys were still alive.

Why assume that the loving uncle suddenly turned into a murdering monster and not accept that a doting mother, Henry VII's, who was at court or nearby, couldn't have arranged the murders if it meant clearing the way for her own son to have an easier path to the throne?

Elizabeth, (mother), appears to have supported Lambert Simnel's claim to be her younger son - would she have done that if she knew he was dead? It was after that that she left court - why? Was she forced to do so because she had supported Simnel or was she planning on doing so all along - but she had young grandchildren by then and didn't spend any time with them in the last 5 years of her life?

What happened to the princes is an ongoing story and we simply don't know the answer but there is a lot of theories and a lot of unanswered questions.
 
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On the heels of your comment, Iluvbertie, I highly recommend that those who have been reading the Cousins' War novels and watching the BBC series get the latest book, "The White Princess," about Elizabeth of York, Henry VII's queen. This deals with Phillipa Gregory's fictional take on Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck, the other claimant to the throne.
 
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What happened to the princes is an ongoing story and we simply don't know the answer but there is a lot of theories and a lot of unanswered questions.

OK - enough! I admit, it was I who murdered the Princes, in the tower, with the candlestick.

Iluvbertie, I mean no disrespect but my humor is up today. I've always wanted to admit it! :ROFLMAO::lol::ROFLMAO:
 
^^^The perp finally broke down and 'fessed up, I see. It's all these conspiracy theories that finally got to you, I'll bet. The other mystery is what fountain of youth did you drink from that you managed to hang around for six centuries??? :D
 
I am a Ricardian and have been since those halcyon days when I was university student and read Josephine Tey's famous and acclaimed 1951 detective novel, The Daughter of Time (from Sir Francis bacon's quote - Truth is the daughter of time not of authority) voted #4 of 100 best mysteries of all time by Mystery Writers of America and voted #1 in the top 100 Crime Novels of All Time, by the equally prestigious UK Crime Writers Association in 1990.

In sum, Tey's arguments are -


  • There was no political advantage for Richard III in killing the young princes. He was legitimately made king.
  • There is no evidence that the princes were missing from the Tower when Henry VII took over.
  • Although a Bill of Attainder was brought by Henry VII against Richard III it made no mention whatsoever of the princes, which it most certainly would have done if Richard had a case to answer. However, there never was any formal accusation, much less a verdict of guilt.
  • Henry VII never produced the bodies of the dead princes for public mourning and a state funeral, which he would have if he could have.
  • The mother of the Princes, Elizabeth Woodville, remained on good terms with Richard.
  • The Princes were more of a threat to Henry VII as the foundation of his claim to the crown was, at best, significantly more remote than theirs and at worst, non-existent.
What history does tells us for certain is that when a Duke, Richard III had a reputation for being an outstanding administrator, good and fair in his dealings, but his reign as king was too short for his potential to be fully realised. However, it can perhaps be glimpsed in his laws and achievements. Many of our present-day ideals such as the Presumption of Innocence, blind justice, and Clear Title, can be traced directly back to King Richard III.

Whatever gloss is put on it, Henry's claim to the throne was quite shonky; to many historians, illegitimate, and to constitutional lawyers, illegal. The Tudors remained ultra-sensitive to claims of illegitimacy and outright regicide until the death of Elizabeth, thus the great William Shakespeare was indeed writing to appease the Tudors in most of his history plays. He would have been quite aware that Richard wasn't a nasty, ugly hunchback, for starters. This perception has been perpetuated by Laurence Olivier's film portrayal of the King, although Olivier was merely acting a part, as it was written.


Today's Royal Family does indeed care about history's prejudice and treatment of Richard III. Our Society's endeavours are perhaps best summed up by our Patron, HRH Richard, Duke of Gloucester:
"… the purpose—and indeed the strength—of the Richard III Society derives from the belief that the truth is more powerful than lies; a faith that even after all these centuries the truth is important. It is proof of our sense of civilised values that something as esoteric and as fragile as reputation is worth campaigning for."

Well said, Your Grace.
 
Thank you for those salient points, Polly. I also read Daughter of Time and found it very engrossing and compelling in its arguments.
 
My personal opinion is that he should be buried in York, where he wished to be, and with a full Catholic funeral mass, at that. Whatever he was, Richard was England’s anointed king - anointed and crowned King at a grand, solemn and very well-attended ceremony at Westminster Abbey on July 6 1483, and he was of course a Catholic. He was also, in fact, austerely religious, a public benefactor and protector of the Church, a founder of charities, who throughout his life upheld a strict code of sexual morality, in marked contrast to many of his fellow courtiers. He was also an extremely popular King who some dearly loved; the preferences, then, of the large number of his collateral descendents should be respected, just as he respected others' wishes and opinions.

However, it seems likely that he will be buried in Leicester and according to the current formal religious rites of the Anglican Church. Whatever the final decision I hope that he is interred with full regal honours and as soon as possible to mitigate any further fruitless controversy attending the dignity of this good man, particularly as he wasn't only killed, he was brutalised in quite horrific ways and his body forced into a hole in the ground not large enough to accommodate it. This last is unheard of treatment of a King defeated in battle almost everywhere in the world, ever.
 
Thank you for those salient points, Polly. I also read Daughter of Time and found it very engrossing and compelling in its arguments.


Me too; for a long time, it put me firmly in Richard's corner.

However, as I read more about it, it really became obvious that Richard was the most likely suspect. We will probably never know for certain, but it's difficult to see how anyone else could have done it (at least without Richard's knowledge).

Then too, the fact remains that he made himself king in place of his young nephew (a fact rather at odds with his reputation for high moral principles).
The grounds (that Edward's marriage was not legal) was decidedly shaky; Elizabeth Woodville was his acknowledged Queen for many years.

If Richard was capable of usurping the throne in the first place, then why not of killing other potential claiments?
 
The problem here is that Edward himself might have been a bastard. A possible scenario is that Richard did not want his mother to be shamed, so he preferred to use the argument that his brother's marriage was not legal.
 
The keyword is might have been.

Edward ruled as king for years; if he was a bastard, well, it would hardly matter after all that time, even if Richard had any proof (which he hadn't).

Nor can I see Proud Cis, as Cecily Neville was known, foisting off a bastard on her husband.
 
Even if he had been born out of wedlock, Edward's father accepted him as his son which makes him legitimate.
 
Edward's father may have accepted him as legit (if that was the case) but the story might have been different for greedy subjects of that time. And we don't know if Richard had any proof. I think it is very strange that Cecily Neville also supported her second born George in all his schemes against Edward.
As Mirabel wrote, Edward ruled as king for years, he was king foremost because he had conquered the right (as Henry VII did).
But you know what, I am all for Richard.
 
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There was never any solid proof about Edward IV's illegitimacy, just a lot of scurrilous rumors that George of Clarence and others capitalized on to discredit Edward later in his reign for their own agenda. Then was revealed the pre-contract to marriage to Eleanor Butler that cast his own children with illegitimacy. And while Edward did rule by right of conquest, he had stronger claim to the throne than did Henry VII who sat on a shaky throne and had to quell insurrection and claimants all through his reign having come from an illegitimate branch of the family. Henry also ensured he married Elizabeth of York to bolster his claim to the throne, although he won it by battle.
 
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