New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Muhler]

Thank you for your answer! It is only, that the German tabloid reports too, that Joachim will be a mere Count from 2023 on. And they have a document!

See here: https://www.bunte.de/royals/daenisc...-koenigshaus-sohn-joachim-verliert-titel.html

Perhaps Muhler could have a look at it. Albeit Danish is a Germanic language I might have understood it wrong.

Bunte got it wrong.

It applies only to decendants of Joachim.

 

[Mbruno]

I was referring to him having no statement ready to go being a sign that a) the announcement was maybe rushed today for some reason b) he can't say he supports taking the titles if he doesn't c) rather like not getting Alexandra on board, not getting Joachim on board and with a statement ready to go at the same time / just after the announcement was poor planning from a PR view

Whether he supports it or not, Joachim cannot go publicly against his mother's will. If he did, the Queen would have no alternative but to cut him off not unlike Andrew and Harry in the UK.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I prefer the Danish and Dutch way. The traditional Bernadotte procreation in the legal male agnate lineage is with Prince Carl Philip and his descendants will not be able to be known with any title, while the children of Mr Westling are now known with the name "Bernadotte".

This causes that the straight and dynastic male royal line of Carl Philip will become without title while other Bernadottes have a noble title (counts and countesses Bernadotte af Wisborg) and "Westling-kown-as-Bernadotte" will hold royal titles.

The Swedish Crown Princess Couple's children are not "Westling-known-as-Bernadotte"s. They are Bernadottes.

Nor is Prince Carl Philip a legal male agnatic Bernadotte. His ancestor Pierre Bernadotte inherited the name from his mother Germaine, not from his father.

As a Swede i would much have preferred the Danish way. At least the three Monpezat boys have titles that they can leave to their children something that the three Bernadotte boys doesn't have.

Princess B was referring to the treatment of living persons.

(On a side note, while this reform is having an effect on living people, which is understandably controversial, there is no indication that this will be "retroactive" as some have been saying. It would be retroactive if, say, the queen had declared that Joachim's children's princely titles were invalidly given and they were never actually royal.)

As far as I know, nobody at the Swedish court has confirmed that Carl Philip's future grandsons will be completely without title, only that they will not inherit their fathers' titles of prince or duke. I've explained in the Swedish titles thread why I think they may be called counts. https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-and-changes-2019-a-20051-17.html#post2418005

 

[tommy100]

And if he supported it he would have said so, especially by now.

 

[Toledo]

Css Alexandra should have kept her mouth shut IMO. This is not a decision that will be withdrawn by her sulking at this stage. So what is the point of expressing her surprise? If her shock is genuine, it still is just making a -for her- bad situation worse.

This will have passed through many courtiers. I doubt very much that it was a spur of the moment decision.

Out of curiosity: is the Danish government involved in this in any form? I understand that Queen is free to do what she wants in terms of titles -as pointed out above- but is it known if it was at least discussed with the prime minister?

If I recall when I was in the previous incarnation of the Royal Forums (as in the old website look) with username El Cid, Alexandra was still married and/or recently divorced. I do recall either a thread or Forum conversation of QMII granting her a post divorcee title. Wow, I'm dating myself like a recently excavated Royal Forums' fossil!

But I do agree, and I'll use Americanisms about it too. She should keep her trap (mouth) shut. Going rogue in public on the Queen is disrespectful. Alexandra should have addressed this via chain of command with her Ex-spouse first since he is part of the Royal Family still.

 

[FigTree]

I think it’s the right thing. Titles are burdensome and the children can have a much more normal life without being a Prince or Princess. Why a parent would get upset about a non working royal loosing their title I don’t know. Nothing in their life will change they just won’t have that in front of their name and it will offer them more freedom.

 

[Iain]

I believe that it was in Spain that the earliest example of a husband of a Queen Regnant was ever given the title of King . That would have been Felipe 1 when he married Juana I He did rule equally with her . The only other example I can remember would be of William of Orange who became De-facto ruler of Great Britain when his wife Mary 11 was proclaimed Queen . I do not believe that this was anything more than a ceremonial " promotion" in other countries . In Portugal there have been 2 King-Consorts , Mary 1 , her husband became King-Consort Peter 111 in 1777 . Queen Mary 11 husband became King -Consort Ferdinand 11 in 1837 . In Spain the husband of Isabel 11 , Francis became King -Consort after the birth of the first child .

In Scotland the husband of a Queen Regant became King. Henry Darnley, the second husband of Mary I, was King Henry. Mary II and ehr husband William Orange, were not rulers of Great Britain. The Kingdom of Great Britain came into being in 1707 and until then Scotland and England remained independent countries, so William and Mary were, at the same time, King and Queen of Scots and King and Queen of England.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Archduchess Zelia,

While I freely admit you do have a point - and I hope so, because I would not like to see QMII go through a public mental deterioration - I was merely listing a number of options. Another you objected to was whether Joachim had been directly told to not say a word. Admittedly unlikely, but a possibility.

But just as other theories debated here, they are possible explanations of a very weird way of handling this issue.

And please refrain from calling other people's ideas or thoughts on the top of the head for offensive. - I'm not in the mood of having someone wagging a raised index finger in my face right now.

Unfortunately QMII is at an age where dementia has to be considered, not least in the light of what PH went through.

Nah, I'm as free to think something is offensive as you are to think it isn't. And I think it is distasteful to accuse someone of being mentally unstable, let alone diagnose them with a severe neurological impairment, on... which grounds exactly? Your own assumptions of what has and has not happened? Neither QMII's nor Alexandra's press secretary's comments in any way confirm that Joachim, Alexandra, Marie and the children hadn't been informed prior to today's announcement.

This situation is also in no way comparable to Henrik's. The machinery around QMII is way too big and stable for her to go off the grid and implement changes in east and west. AND if we're to believe the court – which I'd like to think we should be able to on issues like this – discussions on the subject started in May and that Joachim has been involved in them and informed from the beginning. So is your argument is that QMII has been plotting this "irate" decision that multiple people have been involved in since then?

(...) Lots of questions as to why this was handled the way it was and the timing, reasoning behind it and how was this statement signed off like this. Was it published too early? Did QMII say to publish it and no one had informed the people affected....which said act of informing SHOULD have been done personally by QMII in this situation. If it wasn't...who dropped the ball...was it assumed SOMEONE else would let people know?

So again it goes back to who is running the show, who should be runing the show, who needs to run the show and where does the buck stop.

Remind me again why all of these assumptions are taking for granted that Joachim, Alexandra, Marie and the kids were not informed prior to the release of the statement? Because I have yet to see any statement that says that. On the contrary, Lene Balleby has explicitly said that Joachim has been "involved and informed" throughout the entire decision process.

I was referring to him having no statement ready to go being a sign that a) the announcement was maybe rushed today for some reason b) he can't say he supports taking the titles if he doesn't c) rather like not getting Alexandra on board, not getting Joachim on board and with a statement ready to go at the same time / just after the announcement was poor planning from a PR view

Danish journalists have suggested that Joachim and Marie are supporting Alexandra and the statement she has made, and are using her position to speak from outside the DRF as a "shield" because openly cosigning her statement would be considered to harsh when coming from "inside" the family.

And I think that's a very smart decision if they do agree with her actually. A silent revolt. I think I would've done the same thing if I was in that position.

It's also worth noting that Alexandra's private secretary persistently includes Joachim and Marie in her comments to the press – I doubt she would've done that if there hadn't been conversations and some type of agreement between the three of them.

 

[camelot23ca]

I think this was the right decision but it sounds like it was made in an awkward manner. There is no need for Joachim’s children to be Prince/Princess. The title doesn’t provide them with any significant benefits and actually limits their options with regard to future careers, the worst case scenario of course being that the title holder refuses to accept that he/she is in fact limited re: careers and financial opportunities. Tightening things up makes sense for everyone involved.

I do think it should have been made clear that this is the way things will be for everyone from now on, and will include the eventual children of Isabella, Vincent and Josephine. It’s important to be as fair as possible so that Joachim’s children don’t feel they’re being singled out on an individual level, and it also provides Mary and Frederik’s younger children with clear expectations from an early age.

I also think the timing here wasn’t good, but there’s probably never a good time to take something away from people. It really should have been done when Nikolai and Felix were babies, but I guess they couldn’t realistically do it until Frederik had at least one child.

I do think there’s a possibility of a communications breakdown here instead of just sour grapes. Or maybe there’s both a communications breakdown and sour grapes. I hope the children themselves are kept out of the squabbling as much as possible; it would be a shame to see the relationship between Nikolai and Felix, especially, and their uncle and cousins damaged because of something like this.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I do feel a bit for the children, when you look at all those big family get togethers the rest of the family all tend to have titles - Anne-Marie's children and grandchildren have titles and aren't even from a real reigning RF anymore and Benedikte's children have titles from a defunct German RF. Yet here are the grandchildren of the last current Queen Regnant in Europe having theirs taken away.

In general, I do find it unfair that certain deposed European houses which have been lawfully stripped of their titles by the will of the people are able to get away with having their members use pretended ones, while those who have maintained the support of their public and are therefore still reigning are slimming down their validly inherited titles. However, I don't think simply allowing the reigning houses to expand to hundreds of royals in imitation of some of the deposed houses is a good solution, so I am not sure what can be done.

I just can't shake off that they missed a big opportunity in removing the Danish titles from the Greek RF. It's hard to justify removing the burden of the title of Prince from her grandkids while allowing numerous other Prince/ss of Denmark living their best lives around the world with no duty or expectations to the Kingdom. It would also make it seem like less of a hit job on Joachim's family.

True. Apart from everything else, it simply makes no logical sense that distant relatives who have never lived in Denmark, have no right to the throne or other special status in Denmark, and never use the title, have the "Prince/ss of Denmark" title, while grandchildren of the reigning monarch who are Danish, could conceivably inherit the Danish throne, and have used the Prince/ss to Denmark title all their lives will lose it.

It is not at all "a PR mess" . The Queen has used her royal prerogative to organize her own House. And a former member of said House whom herself holds a totally unnecessary noble title because the same royal prerogative (!) ran to the media to voice her displeasure "for her boys".

It just exposes Ms Manley on the same nitwit level as her "colleague" Ms Markle when it is about royal and noble titles.

The Countess of Frederiksborg's brief statement may be controversial, but it did not make any factually incorrect assertions about the laws or conventions of royal titles. Nor did it insinuate that racism was the reason that the change was applied to her biracial children. The Countess simply shared her and her sons' subjective feelings of surprise, exclusion and loss of identity.

[...] But I will say that the communications department needs to be overhauled sooner rather than later. However, maybe other things need to be overhauled sooner rather than later as well.

[...] Lots of questions as to why this was handled the way it was and the timing, reasoning behind it and how was this statement signed off like this. Was it published too early? Did QMII say to publish it and no one had informed the people affected....which said act of informing SHOULD have been done personally by QMII in this situation. If it wasn't...who dropped the ball...was it assumed SOMEONE else would let people know?

So again it goes back to who is running the show, who should be runing the show, who needs to run the show and where does the buck stop.

Clearly something has gone awry (and there is a credible argument that the decision itself is wrong or at least unnecessary), and the Queen bears at least partial responsibility, but I do not think this has reached the level of an offense for which she deserves to be forced off the throne.

If it is about careers, then why let Nikolai (and subsequently Felix) work as "prins" for however long it's been, at all? Surely the court sees longer term than that. It may be about careers generally and in the future, but I don't think Nik and Felix have contributed to the decision thus far, like I said.

I also find that odd, but see no other reasonable interpretation of the press release other than it being about careers (in general). Either the Queen's views on working with a title have evolved, or the "career" explanation is an excuse.

Another aspect which strikes me as strange: The Queen's past generosity in allowing her grandchildren to use their titles for career purposes (when other European royal houses had already forbidden it) seems to be at odds with the at best thoughtless failure to discuss this move with them in advance (or whatever Countess Alexandra meant by their being "surprised").

I wonder why the titles are lapsing on January 1, as opposed to today or some other future date. What's happening on that date that the situation with the titles matters? Why put everyone in limbo for three months?

Isn't it rather common for new laws and regulations to be put into effect on January 1? It is tidier than selecting a random date in midyear.

Just to clarify, how should we cite Prince Joachim's children from January 1 2023 in English:
His Excellency Count Nikolai of Monpezat or His Excellency Nikolai Count of Monpezat?

Ingolf and Christian were called H.E. Count Ingolf/Christian of Rosenborg on past guestlists of the Royal Court.

 

[Susan D]

I agree with the ending of these titles for junior royals but Monpezat is said to be a fake French title and it isn't a Danish title or surname.

 

[Somebody]

I think you're jumping to some pretty offensive conclusions there.

I think what is most likely to have happened is that Joachim and his family was informed about the decision but didn't agree with it. (Something I don't blame them). Exemplified by the fact that it wasn't, as you've mentioned before, a coordinated statement from everyone involved.

Alexandra's statement said that the decision came as a surprise. That doesn't necessarily mean it came as a surprise today and that they were informed at the same time as the rest of Denmark. Just that when they learned, they were surprised.

Exactly. I doesn't make sense that nobody but Joachim was in the know. He might have tried to make his mother change her thoughts/decision (as apparently this was somewhat of a fluid process) and didn't immediately inform his children while he thought the decision could be altered - but I would sincerely hope at least HE wouldn't wait until the last moment to inform his wife, children (and ex-wife). Although, it would have been best if Margrethe personally had informed her grandchildren (of course we don't know whether she did or not).

I'm also waiting to give a statement.
But his silence makes sense if he is sitting in France thinking: What on earth just happened?!?
For all we know he may be on the phone with Frederik, Alexandra whomever trying to figure out what's going on.
And if he indeed has not been informed he may be anything from hopping mad, to deeply hurt to trying to contact QMII - who is at the National Museum right now.

Do you mean whether he was informed that the press release would go out today? As he was in the know about a change in his children's titles since May 5th (a very specific date).

- One thing that does puzzle me is Alexandra's strong reaction.
If the decision was taken a while ago, it would have given her time to went her anger and protest. There is no need really to shout aloud in public now. It makes no difference and only embarrass the family.

I think every newspaper in DK is trying to get hold of Joachim right now to learn about his opinion. And if Alexandra went solo in her anger, he may be trying to work out a proper response with the rest of the DRF.
If that be the case, then Alexandra is the "bad guy" in this story.

This to me is still the weirdest thing. If Joachim and Marie don't agree with her they better say so very soon - and if they do, it sounds as if they three (probably 5, including Nikolai and Felix) planned it this way.

According to Lene Balleby, Danish RF Press Office, Prince Joachim has been informed since HM began considering the titles issue in May (source: Danish Daily BT).

The result is cruel, IMHO! Is HM looking towards Sweden and caving in to an anticipated criticism? Or what?
She knew all along, that the kids of Prince Joachim would have to make their own living. Other Danish princes and princesses have done exactly that, so what’s the problem - for future reference?
As if using some outlandish noble titel would make their lives easier……

Which Danish princes and princesses are you referring to (other than princess Elisabeth - who purposefully did not marry to keep her title). The queen's male cousins lost their titles upon marriage - including the one who was destined to be king (had they not changed the rules to allow for female succession)! And were made counts of Rosenborg with the style of (his) excellency; so, these princes who are in a comparable position (at least after Margrethe became the new heir) as children of the second son became Excellencies and Counts; exactly, what is happening to Joachim's children now. The main difference is that they are not waiting for them to get married for that to happen.

And I am sorry...I don't buy the this is for the best...put crown before family feelings, etc. There are much better ways to handle things like this.

Plus, IMO, this SUCKS for Joachim's kids to strip them retroactively! It would have been best (and no one would have batted an eye) if the statement had said that while Joachim's kids would retain their titles, any and all their descendants would ONLY carry the tile of Count/countess of Monpezat. DONE. But to strip her own grandchildren..in what seems like (to date) such a callous/cold move is ridiculous. Just because something may be "For the best" doesn't mean it has to be done in what seems like such a detached manner. That statement is the equivalent of "too bad, so sad".

IF there was no proper communication of this and everyone was NOT on the same page, then I can understand the feelings of shock and hurt coming from those affected by this move. Alexandra has usually seemed pretty respectful in terms of making statements (that I can tell) and she's always shown discretion...it sounds like she went into auto-pilot mama bear mode on behalf of her two sons.

You don't strip your grandchildren of titles like this, especially ones that have done absolutely nothing wrong. Sorry, it looks callous and heartless to me. It seems totally unnecessary to do this retroactively at this point instead of just having it be something going forward. Actually, it looks spiteful.

There is a total disconnect between action and consequences here.

So, it is ok for the queen to give them (and Alexandra) titles by creating them counts and countess (komtesse) of Monpezat (or Frederiksborg) but not for her take titles away?

I’m a bigger fan of the: “going forward” method myself. It shows you’re slimming the monarchy down without taking anything away from anyone. UNLESS- everyone is truly on board with that as an immediate decision.

Kids too little to know the difference doesn’t seem too bad either. But that’s not the case here. 2 of the 4 are adults as is. They get it.

If it turns out that they were totally blindsided- that is just wrong. IMO- there is no excuse for anyone not knowing this was coming. You make sure before issuing a press release.

And why would you treat this generation differently to that of previous generations? Ingolf and Christian didn't keep their titles either... And Ingolf even lost the crown itself... I am not saying that was handled correctly but if the idea is to continue this path of having the non-main-line grandchildren become counts and countesses it would be weird to skip this generation (note that the previous generation didn't have this issue as the queen's sisters married a foreign king/fürst).

 

[Toledo]

Nah, I'm as free to think something is offensive as you are to think it isn't. And I think it is distasteful to accuse someone of being mentally unstable, let alone diagnose them with a severe neurological impairment, on... which grounds exactly? ...

Danish journalists have suggested that Joachim and Marie are supporting Alexandra and the statement she has made and are using her position to speak from outside the DRF as a "shield" because openly cosigning her statement would be considered too harsh when coming from "inside" the family...

It's also worth noting that Alexandra's private secretary persistently includes Joachim and Marie in her comments to the press – I doubt she would've done that if there hadn't been conversations and some type of agreement between the three of them.

Agreed on the "Unfortunately QMII is at an age where dementia has to be considered..." line was harsh, she's only 82 and as sharp as her cousin Queen Elizabeth was at age 96 this year. Both Queens EII and MII were/are older than him and seem in absolute control of their capacities.

Re your mention on the Joachim/Marie/supporting Alexandra public relations secret Triumvirate, I do trust your knowledge since you are right there in Copenhagen and you understand the news better than us using Google's of Bing's auto translate to read them. I do hope this Triumvirate of disgruntled family members behaved better toward any decisions done by the head of the family who just needs to make decisions now to save Prince Frederick and Princess Mary a tabloids headache later on.

If a future King Frederick had to decide it's time to scale down on so many non-working royal people princes, the tabloids will viciously attack first Queen Mary with made up game of thrones drama stories and then attack King Frederick as being bad toward his brother and children.

Queen MII is doing the right thing taking the heat away now from both Frederick and Mary's plate so when the transition to them happens this is one less item for King Frederick to deal with.

 

[Somebody]

I agree with the ending of these titles for junior royals but Monpezat is said to be a fake French title and it isn't a Danish title or surname.

It has been a Danish title since April 2008 when Queen Margrethe made it one honouring her husband's heritage.

 

[Izzie]

Even as some suggest, Joachim was involved/informed throughout the process does not translate to in agreement/on board WITH the decision. Those are two different things. Lene can say he was informed/involved all she wants, still does not equate to he is on board with this and everyone is giddy with joy about it.

The careers thing rings totally hollow as Nikolai has been modeling for a while seemingly with it being okay with QMII and now Felix has and there does not appear to have been a problem, dust up or controversy about it. So all of a sudden it's an issue?

Things could have been left as is and then stated going forward for any descendants of Joachim's kids. Much easier to justify IMO. And it technically would have the same sliming down of the monarchy. However, doing this to the grandchildren of the monarch seems in such bad taste...esp. after all these years. Badly thought-out decision IMO without forethought to fallout or optics PR wise. Again, this is my opinion.

And also IF Joachim had been so involved/informed about this whole thing would he not have been prepared with a statement to come out right after the press release? You would think a party so seemingly part of this process would have drafter a statement of support for his mother's decision would he not? OR they really WERE blindsided by this whole thing being dropped today. We just don't know.

 

[Somebody]

Re your mention on the Joachim/Marie/supporting Alexandra public relations secret Triumvirate, I do trust your knowledge since you are right there in Copenhagen and you understand the news better than us using Google's of Bing's auto translate to read them. I do hope this Triumvirate of disgruntled family members behaved better toward any decisions done by the head of the family who just needs to make decisions now to save Prince Frederick and Princess Mary a tabloids headache later on.

If a future King Frederick had to decide it's time to scale down on so many non-working royal people princes, the tabloids will viciously attack first Queen Mary with made up game of thrones drama stories and then attack King Frederick as being bad toward his brother and children.

Queen MII is doing the right thing taking the heat away now from both Frederick and Mary's plate so when the transition to them happens this is one less item for King Frederick to deal with.

I still think that while all of this has been in the works within the family for several months (and in Margrethe's head probably for several years), the death of queen Elizabeth II and the discussion on titles resulting from that in the UK might have hastened queen Margrethe to no longer wait but put out this statement to ensure that it was her and not Frederik to take the criticism (probably even more so because she knew that Joachim and family weren't happy about her decision).

 

[FigTree]

I still think that while all of this has been in the works within the family for several months (and in Margrethe's head probably for several years), the death of queen Elizabeth II and the discussion on titles resulting from that in the UK might have hastened queen Margrethe to no longer wait but put out this statement to ensure that it was her and not Frederik to take the criticism (probably even more so because she knew that Joachim and family weren't happy about her decision).

Change is the only thing constant in life and it is necessary. The writing was on the wall. Someone has to be the first. I am suspicious of grown ups who are upset about their children loosing titles when really every privilege and head start these kids get in life are the same. Beyond being 8 years and in love with the idea of being a Princess I can’t see this. I

 

[shastalucie]

I’m sure it has been planned for a while but this announcement does seem suspiciously close to the death of QE2. King Charles must have done a happy jig.

My feeling is that were Nikolai and Felix the only children of Joachim, they would have been allowed to keep their titles and the changes would only impact their children. However as Joachim has a second family, this doubles the Prince/princess headcount.

So the decision was made that the decision would be the same for Joachim’s older and younger children, so it was fair or unfair to all of Joachim’s children equally.

 

[tihkon2]

Change is the only thing constant in life and it is necessary. The writing was on the wall. Someone has to be the first. I am suspicious of grown ups who are upset about their children loosing titles when really every privilege and head start these kids get in life are the same. Beyond being 8 years and in love with the idea of being a Princess I can’t see this. I

Really. You can't see that if she possibly wasn't consulted and was blindsided, she might be just a teensy little bit pissed off?

 

[FigTree]

Really. You can't see that if she possibly wasn't consulted and was blindsided, she might be just a teensy little bit pissed off?

What are the chances she was blindsided in all honesty. Slim to none.

 

[tihkon2]

What are the chances she was blindsided in all honesty. Slim to none.

And what are the chances she's bald faced lying? We have no more reason to believe that than anything else yet.

 

[Toledo]

It has been a Danish title since April 2008 when Queen Margrethe made it one honoring her husband's heritage.

And the language or country the title originated doesn't really matters that much since there are precedents in history. Imperial Russia had titles or surnames from other nations become part of the Russian aristocracy. In my old home, Spain, the most celebrated title, the Dukes of Alba, carry the Scottish surname Fitz-James Steward since they descend to the Kings of Scotland. Belgium includes as part of the Royal family their Habsburg branch, etc.

When Queen MII adapted her husband's title from the House of Laborde de Monpezat to be absorbed as part of Denmark it was a loving gesture to keep his background as part of the Danish royal family.
Here's the info on The House of Monpezat as a branch of the House of Glücksburg

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Even as some suggest, Joachim was involved/informed throughout the process does not translate to in agreement/on board WITH the decision. Those are two different things. Lene can say he was informed/involved all she wants, still does not equate to he is on board with this and everyone is giddy with joy about it.

Exactly. The distinction between Joachim not being in the know and Joachim being in the know but disagreeing with the decision is very important to make. Especially as the postulation that Joachim somehow wasn't in the know is being used to insinuate that QMII has made a move that blindsided everyone and desktop-diagnose her with neurological diseases based on her "irate" decision-making.

And also IF Joachim had been so involved/informed about this whole thing would he not have been prepared with a statement to come out right after the press release? You would think a party so seemingly part of this process would have drafter a statement of support for his mother's decision would he not? OR they really WERE blindsided by this whole thing being dropped today. We just don't know.

Well, if he shares Alexandra's feelings and backs her statement, he basically has in a convoluted way.

The DRF issued the announcement at 14:00 today. At 14:03, BT published the statement from Alexandra in an article by Jacob Heinel Jensen (who enjoys a very close relationship to J&M). You don't put that together within 3 minutes of an announcement, that was prepared. And as I mentioned above, in every comment Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen has made today, she has made sure to include Joachim and Marie when talking about Alexandra's feelings.

As I've said before, I think "using" Alexandra is the perfect silent revolt on Joachim's part. It would be seen as way too harsh if he went out and criticised QMII's decision himself and I don't think he should be forced into making a statement about "understanding the decision" if he doesn't understand it (which many of us don't, so I can't blame Joachim for not understanding it either).

However, combined with Lene Balleby's comment that Joachim has been involved in the process since May, I think we can debunk the whole theory of anyone being blindsided. Surprised? Understandably. Disagreeing? Possibly. Blindsided? Hardly.

 

[suztav]

QMII doesn't seem to be the type of person to intentionally blindside her son.

I do think she is an incredibly pragmatic woman who sees the way of the world -- and sees the *mess* in the UK w/H&M asking for titles for their children who don't even live in the country!

 

[Izzie]

They could still have been blindsided. They could have been given a very small window right before the press release was issued. And maybe that is why there may be a more emotional tinge to the statement by Alexandra if it was written in a bit of haste to get something out. They may not have been aware any announcement was coming out today. They could have even been blindsided by the wording of the statement. There is more than one way to blindside someone EVEN in a situation where they were part of the discussions. No one truly knows how the actual timing occurred.

I stand by my opinion that this just looks cold and callous tbh. I don't buy the spin it is being given either...sounds more like excuses to cushion the action

And btw I would have no issue if the announcement had said that going forward the descendants of Joachim's children would be titled by the Count/Countess of Monpezat. Fair enough. But to strip your grandchildren...NOW? I can understand if they feel hurt. They would not be human if they didn't. And it has nothing to do with the actual title IMO...it is the inferred feeling behind it that makes the optics look bad. Like oh as of 1/1/23....too bad, so sad...you're demoted!! Sorry, that is just the way it comes across.

And why 1/1/2023? why not as of this day? Why let them be prince/princess for 3 more months...like that's going to soften it somehow?

And YES...this is a PR mess regardless of how anyone tries to spin it. Their communications department is horrible and needs a total overhaul of how to handle modern day PR, crisis management, branding and image.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

The biggest clue that this would happen, imho, is that neither of the boys received the Order of the Elephant on their 18th birthday, and have not participated in any formal occasion. The surprise is she is doing it retrospective, not including the descendants of Prince Vincent and delaying the change until the New Year. Why bother waiting?

Alexandra coming out with that press release was plain stupid. I always had the opinion she was using her children's Princely titles for her own gain, and now that is taken away "from her" and she has "chucked the toys out of the cot". There was no need for her to voice her opinion on titles that she knows is essentially controlled by her ex-mother-in-law.

But as for Prince Joachim - using your ex-wife to do your dirty work is disgusting. If you are not happy with the decision, say it yourself and don't use your ex-wife as a scapegoat!

 

[Viv]

Which Danish princes and princesses are you referring to (other than princess Elisabeth - who purposefully did not marry to keep her title). .

Yes, the late Princess Elisabeth and then Prince Georg(e) (1920-1986),
who married Anne Bowles-Lyon in 1950, a niece of QE the Queen
Mother. Which is said to be why he didn’t lose his title! He was never the
less a non-working royal and earned his own living, a.o. as a
defence attaché at the Royal Danish Embassy in London.

Anyway, I’m slowly getting round to the fact, but I can’t help thinking that it was
done in a brutal manner! However in about 10 years time - or so - we will have
a King and Queen with four adult children, who can carry out royal duties in
varying degrees. I know that only Prince Christian in expected to be on the civil
list, but that doesn’t rule out that changes can be made.

 

[Chronojourner]

I'm really saddened by this news. The reason I say this is that my deep personal opinion has always been that when a person is born with a princely title, they should be entitled to hold it for the rest of their lives. If they are grandchildren of the monarch, then they can't pass it on to their children, but still, they have a right to it. It would have been better if they never had the title to begin with than to hold it and then have it stripped from them arbitrarily. And, I don't believe for one minute that it was for the children's benefit. I think it was for the purposes of streamlining the monarchy, which is all well and good, but better to make the changes going forward than to strip living people of their titles. If they want to change the system, then make it so that the grandchildren of younger children of the monarch don't get a princely title at all, but don't rob people who already have such a title. Again, that's my own personal opinion, and I understand that others will likely disagree.

 

[Erin9]

New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

The biggest clue that this would happen, imho, is that neither of the boys received the Order of the Elephant on their 18th birthday, and have not participated in any formal occasion. The surprise is she is doing it retrospective, not including the descendants of Prince Vincent and delaying the change until the New Year. Why bother waiting?

Alexandra coming out with that press release was plain stupid. I always had the opinion she was using her children's Princely titles for her own gain, and now that is taken away "from her" and she has "chucked the toys out of the cot". There was no need for her to voice her opinion on titles that she knows is essentially controlled by her ex-mother-in-law.

But as for Prince Joachim - using your ex-wife to do your dirty work is disgusting. If you are not happy with the decision, say it yourself and don't use your ex-wife as a scapegoat!

Nikolai is 23. She sat on this for 5 years?

I’m not clear on why she’s waiting until 2023 either. Seems odd.

Are Alexandra’s sons ok with this? I’m thinking her reaction is based on their feelings. (It seems that way to me.) Same for Joachim and Marie. These aren’t the Swedish kids. They’re old enough to understand. And the Swedes got to keep Prince/ess. There seemed to be more of a compromise there. Maybe it matters to the Danish kids.

Alexandra could have said nothing- but short of Joachim saying we’re all supportive- the silence would have spoken for itself anyway. (He hasn’t said anything. So- I’m guessing he’s not happy. Alexandra’s statement indicates as much anyway.)

I’m still not clear why she HAD to strip anyone. She could have gone with- “in the future….. Only the children of the heir….” It’s still a slimmed down monarchy in the long run. They weren’t getting money anyway.

 

[Mbruno]

I think this was the right decision but it sounds like it was made in an awkward manner. There is no need for Joachim’s children to be Prince/Princess. The title doesn’t provide them with any significant benefits and actually limits their options with regard to future careers, the worst case scenario of course being that the title holder refuses to accept that he/she is in fact limited re: careers and financial opportunities. Tightening things up makes sense for everyone involved.

In Nikolai's case at least, it might be argued that the title of Prince of Denmark did give him some tangible benefits, specifically in his modeling career. That could have been proven to be the case too for Felix had he kept the title. We don't know either to what extent his title helped Felix to secure his internship in the shipping industry or not. In any case, the boys did not seem to be limited in their financial or career opportunities by constraints imposed on members of the Royal House, maybe because they were already HHs only (not HRHs) and were not "working royals", nor received any state funding.

I do think it should have been made clear that this is the way things will be for everyone from now on, and will include the eventual children of Isabella, Vincent and Josephine. It’s important to be as fair as possible so that Joachim’s children don’t feel they’re being singled out on an individual level, and it also provides Mary and Frederik’s younger children with clear expectations from an early age.

I also think the timing here wasn’t good, but there’s probably never a good time to take something away from people. It really should have been done when Nikolai and Felix were babies, but I guess they couldn’t realistically do it until Frederik had at least one child.

I agree that it should have been made clear that the same rules will apply in the next generation to Frederik's grandchidren in collateral line. However, unlike Spain and the UK, which have rules of general application for titles and styles of the Royal Family (RD 1368/1987 in Spain and the LPs of 1917 and 2012 in the UK), Denmark seems to handle those matters on an individual basis and maybe Queen Margrethe II did not want to be seen as binding future King Frederik X on the titles and styles of his own future descendants.

Personally, I believe the version that the changes regarding the titles and styles of Prince Joachim's children had been under review for quite some time and that Joachim was briefed throughout the process. The expected outcome of Joachim's children being "demoted" so to speak is at odds, however, with the treatment accorded to Nikolai and Felix in the official website of the Royal House, including official pictures being released on the occasion of their birthdays, which I have always found odd for people who were not HRHs and not in direct line to the throne.