Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)

[Russophile]

I have seen it in print as Sfiris, his first name was Ilya, which would indicate that he was Russian. But your spelling, certainly, could be another way, translated into English letter. Her daughter Tatiana married Alexis Giannakoupoulas. Who was definitely Greek.

My spelling sucks due to my reading this stuff years ago.
Countess, Lexi, have you guys read the fictional novel: Property of a Lady? By Elizabeth Adler? I think she wraps a lot of this whole thing up in an engaging story.

 

[COUNTESS]

I never read that, and I got that info from a new book, which is a biography, by John Ver Der Kriste and Coryne Hall, called Once a Grand Duchess, Xenia, Sister of Nicholas II. Never read historical fiction.

 

[Russophile]

It's fun. Mind candy, really. I would throw one of those in after something huge, like Massie, or in between a Victor Hugo or Melville. It would spark something else. I read a fictional bio on Coco Chanel and that's what got me into the Romanovs (GDDmitry) and Misia Sert. There's one good bio. on her. Excellent read.

 

[lexi4]

Maybe it was not mtDNA he was being tested for, maybe it was nuclear DNA.

Maybe the scientists are trying to make a profile of Romanov family nuclear DNA.

No, it was not nuclear DNA. Here is a link to Gill's findings, if you are interested.
re.com/ng/journal/v6/n2/abs/ng0294-130.html
You will note, that Nicholas's mtDNA had to be cloned to demonstrate heteroplasmy. One of these sequences matched two living maternal realtives of the Tsar.
The remains were too decayed to use nuclear DNA.

Lexi

 

[lexi4]

It is possible to test for a haemophilia gene and the Russians are trying to do that.
If I quote from reply 34 on this thread which is a translation from a Russian newspaper Izvestia:

'This time we shall try to investigate DNA for genetically determined disease.'

They did not test for the haemophilia gene on Alexandra. They planned to, but that was scrapped at the last minute supposedly because of the cost.
Lexi

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Prince Michael was a DNA donor to establish Romanov identity.

Do you have a source for this because I do not believe it.

 

[plkbvt]

Doubtful. They certainly didn't do that at the Dowager Empress Marie's re-burial, though she always was the unifying force abroad after the revolution.

This is a little misleading. She was a "unifying force" only in the sense that no one in the family dared to make a move without her blessing and permission (apart from Kyrill, whose "Romanov" heritage was far greater than MF's). This was a dynastic and generational thing, based ONLY on MF's position as Empress Mother -- she played no role whatsoever in emigre politics apart from keeping completely silent. pk

 

[lexi4]

For the DNA tests on the bodies found in Koptyaki Forest, DNA from Prince Phillip was used. His mother, Princess Alice of Greece, was the daughter of Alexandra's oldest sister, Victoria. Both Alexandra and Victoria shared the same mtDNA. Testing for Nicholas proved to be more complicated. His nearest living relative was his sister Olga's son. He believed the bones found to be a hoax engineered by the KGB and refused to cooperate with the testing. Consequently, the lab cloned the DNA of Nicholas using the PCR process but this too proved problematic. In the end, the body of Nicholas's brother, Grand Duke George Alexandrovich, was exhumed and a match obtained.
So, the DNA used for Nicolas and Alexandra was that of Prince Phillip and Grand Duke George.
Lexi

 

[lucien]

As for the investigation,mr.Nikolai Nevolin will hold a press conference at the appropiate time,it is far too early to say anything at this time.

Untill the US laboratories have completed their own DNA studies,some time after the Russians have concluded their work,nothing will be confirmed either way.

courtesy Margarita Nelipa,AP/SEARCH Foundation.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I will wait what the Search Foundation's reaction will be through Margarita Nelipa on behalve of Peter Sarandinaki,President of the SEARCH Foundation.

Exactly. This is the best thing any of us can do. There is a thread on the Alexander Palace forum where all the latest updates are posted. If anyone has any questions, they can read the whole thing. You will see all the details and why specialists are so certain these are the remains of the lost children.

Keep checking this thread for the real story.

The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!

 

[BeatrixFan]

The real story according to those at the Alexander Palace forum. In all this, I'm amazed at how closed minded some people can be. Unless you were one of those Bolshevik assassins who were at the execution, you can't know the real story.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The real story according to those at the Alexander Palace forum. In all this, I'm amazed at how closed minded some people can be. Unless you were one of those Bolshevik assassins who were at the execution, you can't know the real story.

It's not just the AP forum's opinion, it's the facts from the experts and scientists involved, and news media stories released worldwide. Because a SEARCH member is a poster at AP, they are able to have all the current updates from Russia. Please read the entire thread for the story.

 

[plkbvt]

Have you had any experience with them?

An awful lot. pk

 

[AGRBear]

"What Questions Would WE Ask About The "New Grave"

"What Questions Would WE Ask About The "New Grave" discovered 29 July 2007 if we were able to speak to the people invovled in the search, the discovery and the testing of what appears to be two bodies, a young male and a female, whom the Russians are claiming are Tsarvich Alexei and GD. Marie.

Before I start my questions, perhaps I should note that because our knowledge of the discovery is limited becuse most of us can only draw on are the newspaper reports and the press releases. As more information is provided, some of our questions will be anwered, or, they may cause more questions. Therefore, as we discuss our questions our own opinions might change and evolve.


Here is my first set of questions that bother me about the remains found.

#One - The fact that there seems to be two pits and not just just one leads me to ask the following:
.....A. According to all the testimonies [accept one of Yurovsky's statements in his unpublish memiors] I've seen we are told both the bodies of Alexei and a female were burned and then buried in one "pit". Not two pits.

......B. Because the two pits found are "stair stepped" and not parallel but perpendicular ( T" shaped), this indicates there is a possibility that these two "pits" were not dug at the same time. So, knowing how these kinds of questions would lurk around this discovery did the people in charge of the excavation take certain steps which will give evidence of proof needed to inform the public that these two "pits" were dug at the same time and not at different times.

.....C. According to Yurovsky testimonies, all the grave diggers were exhausted and didn't want to dig one grave so why would they dig three graves?
1) One pit for Alexei
2) One pit for a female
3) One mass grave for nine some 60 to 70 km from the other two "pits"

I realize that most posters do not have the answers to my questions and the questions by others which will follow, but, we can provide the answers we do know due to our own knowledge in forensics, or, some of us can provide sources from books, maybe provide links which will help us understand the various subjects that might pop up in this kind of thread.

Let me, also, add: I mean no disrespect to those who are working hard toward the truth on these findings in Ekaerinburg or whereever these remains need to be sent.

At this time, I see no reason not to set up a list of questions that we'd like to have anwered at some point in time.


Kipling once wrote:

>>I keep six honest serving-men
(They taught me all I knew):
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.<<


AGRBear

 

[SIRRACOURT]

I think PK is my well know friend who wrote a beautiful book on Mrs Anderson in 1983. I present myself:
I am a canadian historian who was born in France and who study the ROMANOV FILE since 1957, I was then 12 y.o.
Between 1957 & 1995, I travelled in France, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Russia to meet people linked to this ROMANOV FILE.
In 2008, I wrote a book solving this 90 years enigma after finding secret archives (30.000 documents in 10 cases) belonging to surviving members of the family of Nicholas II.
The tsarine & her 4 daughters were exfiltrated alive from Russia in 1918. They have never been shooted in Ipatiev House. They lived long hidden in Europe after the pseudo-massacre!...only the tsar Nicholas II & Alexis were shooted in a military field outside Ekaterinbourg. The corpses are not in Russia either!...
My book is: L'AFFAIRE ROMANOV, Louise Courteau Éditrice, Quebec, Canada. The book is sold now in Canada & soon in France, Belgium, Switterland.
You can go to My web-site is: ROMANOVFILE
You can see there a lot of photos & documents.
Best regards.

 

[ChatNoir]

Monsieur Wartelle,
Do you know if your book will be available in English any time soon?

 

[lucien]

DNA Confirms Remains Of Czar's Children, Bone Fragments Exhumed In Woods Settle Mystery of Royal Family Members Who Disappeared - CBS News

 

[SIRRACOURT]

ADN Tests

I want to tell you that DNA tests are a very clever "disinformation operation".
You should read the declarations of the japananese scientist Kitozato Tatsuo Nagai and Alec Knight from Stanford University who refuse the DNA results. I lived in Russia during 3 years and I can tell you that russians are experts in desinformation. It is a national sport!...

 

[lucien]

I want to tell you that DNA tests are a very clever "disinformation operation".
You should read the declarations of the japananese scientist Kitozato Tatsuo Nagai and Alec Knight from Stanford University who refuse the DNA results. I lived in Russia during 3 years and I can tell you that russians are experts in desinformation. It is a national sport!...

Oh we all know that,LOL!

Except in this case,it's not just the Russians,but also the Brits and the US that have come to the same conclusion.
Just to cut all desinformation out on the Romanovs,for once and for all.......

 

[SIRRACOURT]

I kindly ask you first to read my book and then take a final position. In the book are: exclusive documents, testimonies and photos of the graves coming from high rank persons giving the proofs of the survivance of the tsarine and the girls.

 

[Russophile]

Oh we all know that,LOL!

Except in this case,it's not just the Russians,but also the Brits and the US that have come to the same conclusion.
Just to cut all desinformation out on the Romanovs,for once and for all.......

Which again makes me wonder why, unless they have something to hide.

 

[Warren]

... proofs of the survivance of the tsarine and the girls.

The Tsarina and all the daughters survived Ekaterinburg?

 

[LadyCat]

If Alicky and the girls had survived Ekaterinburg I should think there would have been reports of it. How would the Tsarina and her daughters been able to live anywhere in the world without a single one of them being detected?

Cat

 

[AGRBear]

In regards to the heights of Alexei, Marie and Anasasia:

1 Oct 2007
Russian Newspaper: Intefax

Interfax wrote article on the new discovery in which the following is a part:

Since I don't read Russian, I have been told that this tells us that the Russians are indicating the remains of the female, Marie, estimated height is 160 cm = 5 feet 2.5 inches tall and that the male, Alexei, estimated height is 142-143 cm or 143= 4 feet 6.9 inches tall.


This following photo was taken 4/17 Oct 1916 and the girls are not lined up as they are in the next photo so heights are difficult to determine:

Nicholas II was said to have been 5 feet 7 inches tall.

About four months later:

This photo was taken in the Spring of 1917:

All the girls look about the same height as they were in the Oct. 1916 photo. Anastasia was the shortest.

Tatiana who looks about 5 feet 6 inches - taller than Olga and Marie
Anastasia - shortest of the girls and believed to be about 5 feet 2 inches
Alexei - 3 months later was said to be 5 feet and 1/2 inch tall. His height was recorded on the door of the palace which also shows the height of the girls.


BEAR's OPINION:

I think Alexei was close to his father's height and about 5 feet 5 to 6 f inches tall by July of 1918. Why? The average growith for a boy this age is 3.5 inches a year. If Alexi was 5 feet 1/2 inch on 1 Jan. 1917 then from 1 Jan. 1917 to 1 Jan 1918 he would have been about 5 feet 4 inches tall. Add another seven months and add another 2 inches and that would make him about 5 feet 6 inches tall.

His weight was probably more than 80 pounds because in one of the diaries we are told that Alexei was feeling better and his appetite had increased AND that that he was eating well. He still wasn't mobile enough to burn off any calories. By this time there was more starch in their meals than meat. Probably weight closer to 90 + pounds.

Since Anastasia was known to be about 5 feet 2. inches tall in 1918, we can tell by the photos that Marie was taller. Most think she was about 5 feet 6 inches. She was diffently taller than 5 feet 2 inches.

The estimated height of Alexei and Marie, as told in the news Interfax, [seen in above post] indicates they believe the two newly found remains are 4 feet 6 inches for Alexei and 5 feet 2.5 inches for Marie. If in fact the report is true, then, it would appear that someone didn't estimate the height of the bones correctly or it this is indeed accurate, then the remains cannot be Alexei's or Marie's.


AGRBear

 

[Russophile]

If Alicky and the girls had survived Ekaterinburg I should think there would have been reports of it. How would the Tsarina and her daughters been able to live anywhere in the world without a single one of them being detected?

Cat

They couldn't. Not all of them together, but one or two survivors is more likely. But then again, if you pop over to the remains thread, you see again, nothing is resolved.

 

[qui mal y pense]

They couldn't. Not all of them together, but one or two survivors is more likely. But then again, if you pop over to the remains thread, you see again, nothing is resolved.

How can you say that nothing is resolved. We have the testimony of the murderers, DNA, etc. If anything there was motive to cover it all up, but to say that they are covering up the fact that they survived is very strange. It's not like they are returning property to the heirs of any of the Romanovs, so why?

By the way, these photos are amazing. I've never seen some of these- where are they from?

 

[Elspeth]

Which again makes me wonder why, unless they have something to hide.

Must be something extremely valuable if it's making a bunch of very highly regarded scientists lie about their results. It'll be the end of their careers if this is really going on and they're found out.

 

[Elspeth]

I kindly ask you first to read my book and then take a final position. In the book are: exclusive documents, testimonies and photos of the graves coming from high rank persons giving the proofs of the survivance of the tsarine and the girls.

And I - in my capacity as an administrator of this forum - kindly ask you to not start expecting people to read your book before you'll engage them in conversation about this topic. This is a discussion forum, not a venue to sell books. You surely can respond to questions with some actual information rather than a "buy my book or forever hold your peace" conversation-stopper.

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

It has been established now that the rumors of the women seen elsewhere was only a ploy by the Bolsheviks to not admit they had killed them. It was only a lie to cover up the fact they were dead. Interesting and sad it has taken the opposite use over the years, now people use to say they were alive! So any 'evidence' of them being seen alive is only based on these rumors and therefore untrue.

Which again makes me wonder why, unless they have something to hide.

There is no disinformation, nothing to hide, no lies, and no coverup. Why make a story out of this that isn't there? The murdered family deserves more respect than that. So do the scientists. There are so many people being called liars and for what? It doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

They couldn't. Not all of them together, but one or two survivors is more likely. But then again, if you pop over to the remains thread, you see again, nothing is resolved.

As OlgaNikolaivna said, all of these survival rumours and stories are ALL false. There wasn't any survivors during that night. It's impossible since, the bolsheviks use bayonets, knives, and shot them mulitiple times. But, all of the Imperial family and their servants died that night. The remains that were both discovered in 1991 and 2007 prove that they are of the imperial family. There are many pieces of proof, such as Yurorosky's note, and the accurate DNA tests. It really doesn't make sense to say 'they covered it up', or hiding something that's just speculation. This case really is closed, finally the Romanovs can really rest in peace when their memory is being respected. The DNA did it, many just refuse to believe in the DNA and want to make up their own stories. I don't think it's right to continue the survival theory, when the truth has already been proven. The imperial family doesn't diserve to be disrespected.