Engagement of Princess Maria Laura and William Isvy; 27 Dec 2021

[Marchesina]

That she is invited to family BBQ's was shared by Chris Michel, who made the documentary about her.
That Jim gets along well with Lorenz was indeed shared by Delphine herself.

I still think it somehow surprises me because Delphine wasn't acknowledged until October 2020 so that must mean she has created a bond of some sort with Maria Laura at those gatherings, considering that Maria Laura and William live in London.
At least I don't expect that she is invited only because she is family.
Heck, the entire family lives scattered on the continent.

Anyway, up to next Saturday it is

In such big weddings you don't necessarily get an invitation because you have a bond with the couple. Imagine the general uproar if Delphine wasn't invited just because she hasn't formed a bond with the bride.
She is her mother's half sister, she gets an invitation. That's it.

 

[Prinsara]

In such big weddings you don't necessarily get an invitation because you have a bond with the couple. Imagine the general uproar if Delphine wasn't invited just because she hasn't formed a bond with the bride.
She is her mother's half sister, she gets an invitation. That's it.

It's not a big wedding though. She is going to the very small civil one (in addition).

 

[hereditarytitles]

I have the impresion that Astrid and Lorenz are very happy about this marriage and very welcoming to their future son in law. it seems to be not so important that he is of jewish belief, but still , as Tatiana Maria translated, there will be some jewish pieces in the wedding ceremony

 

[Marchesina]

It's not a big wedding though. She is going to the very small civil one (in addition).

I meant the overall celebration, which will have hundreds of guests.

 

[Prinsara]

I meant the overall celebration, which will have hundreds of guests.

Yes, but the fact she's attending the very intimate family-only one (when we speculated that it wasn't whether she would be invited at all but whether Delphine would even feel comfortable enough attending a big celebration) says that she's probably met Laura somewhere by now.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Will William receive a title or remain William Isvy?

I don’t think he will receive any titles. For one thing, Maria Laura isn’t a working royal.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

After reading Marchesa's response, I hope it's a wedding Liturgy without consecration.

Because it would mean the bride and her family will receive Holy Communion while the groom and his family sit by and watch.

 

[Somebody]

After reading Marchesa's response, I hope it's a wedding Liturgy without consecration.

Because it would mean the bride and her family will receive Holy Communion while the groom and his family sit by and watch.

This happened at the wedding of the protestant prince Maurits and his Roman Catholic bride Marilène. It was a ecumenical wedding and included Mass. Princess Juliana famously went up to receive communion (which she wasn't supposed to do as a member of the Reformed Church and not of the Roman Catholic Church). It was her final public event - after that she was completely shielded from the public (because of dementia).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

"Last weekend Princess Laura had her bachelorette party with her siblings, the Arco cousins and Medina sisters! ���� Maybe at her grandparents property in the South of France?"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1562004923922915330

It is well known that Princess Maria Laura is close/best friends with her cousin Princess Napoléon (Olympia Arco), who is the same age as her, but was it known before that she is friends with the Medina de Orleans e Bragança sisters?

In such big weddings you don't necessarily get an invitation because you have a bond with the couple. Imagine the general uproar if Delphine wasn't invited just because she hasn't formed a bond with the bride.
She is her mother's half sister, she gets an invitation. That's it.

I agree. I think the press conferences making a point to address Princess Delphine's attendance at the civil and religious weddings, and the HLN article abovethread making Delphine's attendance its headline for its report about the press conference, attest to the public interest in her attendance. Irrespective of their personal relationships or feelings towards one another, it was undoubtedly the safer choice for Princess Maria Laura to invite her new aunt to both of her weddings.

Was there a press conference prior to Amedeo's wedding?

Yes, there was at least one, with Prince Lorenz. I remember reading a summary of it, but unfortunately do not have the link offhand.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

As for the lenght, it may be due to a number of things: prayers (I have read earlier this summer they wanted to include jewish elements), musical choices....

Could you be thinking of the announcements at the two press conferences about the singing of both Christian/Catholic and Jewish songs? Or was there a separate report about prayers?

You can also have the option of a ceremony outside Mass, and that is advisable (in many parishes it is by default) when there'a a disparity of worship. You get a ceremony with all the readings (first reading, psalm, optional second reading and the Gospel), the homily, the prayers but you don't have the Consecration and distribution of the Communion.

The Catholic Church in Flanders also states that a wedding ceremony without a Mass is the standard for Catholic weddings where there is a disparity of religious beliefs. This page has a basic outline of the wedding ceremony with and without a Mass.

https://www.kerknet.be/trouwen-voor-de-kerk/artikel/de-huwelijksviering

After reading Marchesa's response, I hope it's a wedding Liturgy without consecration.

Because it would mean the bride and her family will receive Holy Communion while the groom and his family sit by and watch.

The article which I linked to previously (published by the US Catholic Church) compares it to inviting a guests to dinner and not permitting them to eat.

https://www.foryourmarriage.org/interfaith-marriages/

I wonder why that thinking isn't applied to the other Christian elements, such as Bible readings and blessings, which are still included in Catholic Church weddings between a Catholic and a non-Christian (see the Kerknet article or this one in English). Perhaps the difference is the expectation of personal participation.

 

[Somebody]

The Catholic Church in Flanders also states that a wedding ceremony without a Mass is the standard for Catholic weddings where there is a disparity of religious beliefs. This page has a basic outline of the wedding ceremony with and without a Mass.

https://www.kerknet.be/trouwen-voor-de-kerk/artikel/de-huwelijksviering

The article which I linked to previously (published by the US Catholic Church) compares it to inviting a guests to dinner and not permitting them to eat.

https://www.foryourmarriage.org/interfaith-marriages/

I wonder why that thinking isn't applied to the other Christian elements, such as Bible readings and blessings, which are still included in Catholic Church weddings between a Catholic and a non-Christian (see the Kerknet article or this one in English). Perhaps the difference is the expectation of personal participation.

Everyone can participate in the listening to the Bible reading and preaching as well as congregational singing (if they so wish). Of course, the blessing is specific to the couple. However, communion is limited to believers who are members of the Roman Catholic church, so if half of the couple (and most likely most of their family members and friends) cannot partake in this central part of the service, it makes sense to adapt the service into one that everyone can participate in.

It would be weird to request a Catholic wedding and NOT include the other essential elements. If a couple is not interested in the basics of a Catholic wedding (bible reading & preaching/the sacrament of marriage), the solution is quite straight-forward: don't have such a wedding...

 

[Somebody]

I agree. I think the press conferences making a point to address Princess Delphine's attendance at the civil and religious weddings, and the HLN article abovethread making Delphine's attendance its headline for its report about the press conference, attest to the public interest in her attendance. Irrespective of their personal relationships or feelings towards one another, it was undoubtedly the safer choice for Princess Maria Laura to invite her new aunt to both of her weddings.

It's quite smart imho to announce Delphine's attendance at both the civil and religious wedding. The papers can already bring that news and focus on the couple themselves at the day of the wedding.

 

[rominet09]

I wonder if the Belgian TV will broadcast the wedding.
I can't remember if Amedeo's wedding was broadcast.
Does anyone remember ?

 

[Mbruno]

The entire family is invited, including Delphine. I don't know whether I find that logical or surprising.

Anyway, I hope it will be a nice wedding (considering that my taste seems to be from days gone by).

I think it is consistent with Delphine having been invited to official and semiofficial family events before since she was legally recognized as Albert's daughter.

 

[cdm]

I wonder if the Belgian TV will broadcast the wedding.
I can't remember if Amedeo's wedding was broadcast.
Does anyone remember ?

Amedeo’s wedding wasn’t broadcasted. There was just some footage and photos of the guests and couple entering and leaving the church
I expect the same for this wedding.

Someone else in this thread asked if there was a press conference for Amedeo’s wedding.
It was the two dads going for a drink on a terrace and answering questions of the press.

 

[Biri]

I think only the weddings of King Philippe's children will be broadcast.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It was stated at the first press conference on August 18 that photographs and camera footage would be available from Laura and William's religious wedding, but not from their civil wedding.

Again, please see the locked wedding thread for the information from the first press conference.

Princess Maria Laura of Belgium and William Isvy: 10 Sept 2022

Amedeo’s wedding wasn’t broadcasted. There was just some footage and photos of the guests and couple entering and leaving the church

Weren't there video clips from inside the church as well?

 

[Mbruno]

Any Catholic Weddings I've attended have all been Wedding Masses and the fact its in a RC Cathedral I assume this will also be a wedding Mass.

As explained before, since William is Jewish, the wedding service will not be a Mass.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Another aspect of the religious wedding which I am wondering about is the series of questions to the couple. To quote from the English order of service (the Dutch version is identical in substance), the questions asked of the couple in the standard Roman Catholic marriage service would be:

Celebrant:

[Name] and [Name], have you come here to enter into Marriage
without coercion,
freely and wholeheartedly?

The bridegroom and bride each say: I have.

The celebrant continues:

Are you prepared, as you follow the path of Marriage,
to love and honor each other
for as long as you both shall live?

The bridegroom and bride each say: I am.

The following question may be omitted, if circumstances suggest this, for example, if the couple are advanced in years.

Celebrant:
Are you prepared to accept children lovingly from God
and to bring them up
according to the law of Christ and his Church?

The bridegroom and bride each say: I am.
​

But is the final question asked in circumstances where the couple is not advanced in age but one of the parties is not a Church member? (As discussed earlier in the thread, the Roman Catholic Church no longer asks a non-Catholic spouse to promise to bring up their children in the church.) Perhaps the members who have experience or knowledge of Roman Catholic interfaith weddings can clarify?

 

[Moonmaiden23]

The question regarding children is omitted for older couples.

 

[Prinsara]

The question regarding children is omitted for older couples.

And what about not older, interfaith couples? Besides, how do they know the older couples aren't planning to adopt?

 

[noc]

And what about not older, interfaith couples? Besides, how do they know the older couples aren't planning to adopt?

That is a good question, really who makes the decision as to age? It seems in some areas marriage is happening much later in life and for some adoption is the only manner one can welcome children

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Most, if not all Catholic clergy meet with the bride and groom several times before the ceremony. If the couple are unable to have biological children due to age, infertility or other health issues the priest will/can modify the vows for them.

If they are planning to not have children for reasons other than age or health related reasons and are honest with the priest about it, he likely cannot marry them in Church according to Canon law. It would invalidate the Sacrament.

But there is nothing in Canon law that would bar an older or infertile couple from adopting children. I am sure that is something that they would discuss with the priest before the ceremony.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Belgian Roman-Catholic Church Province is known as unorthodox and will absolutely adapt to every wish, as long as it is tasteful and not going beyond limits.

The funerals of King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola were also not exactly deeply orthodox Roman-Catholic ceremonies. Especially the one of King Baudouin with elements of activism and choices of profane music totally was out of the framework as on this forum many seem to see him as a sport of King-Priest which he was absolutely not.

Also the funeral of Queen Fabiola, by all accounts a deeply religious lady, was a relatively light-hearted affair. Not at all a sombre, deeply religious act with lots of incense burning and gregorian-chanting priests. Just a Queen laid on a floor, with Will Tura singing profane songs and a Spanish choir with drums and castagnettes.

On this forum the Belgian royal family has the tendence to be made more pure, orthodox and catholic than they are in reality. For an example: I do not recall the King and his family ever attend Mass outside public acts.

This coming religious ceremony (no Mass) will most likely be a festive and lighthearted affair.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Very true. Except Queen Fabiola's actual internment later in the Royal vault was very orthodox, traditional and solemn, with haunting Gregorian chant. It was limited to close family. ( I remember seeing clips of the ceremony later)

 

[Marchesina]

Could you be thinking of the announcements at the two press conferences about the singing of both Christian/Catholic and Jewish songs? Or was there a separate report about prayers?









The Catholic Church in Flanders also states that a wedding ceremony without a Mass is the standard for Catholic weddings where there is a disparity of religious beliefs. This page has a basic outline of the wedding ceremony with and without a Mass.



https://www.kerknet.be/trouwen-voor-de-kerk/artikel/de-huwelijksviering









The article which I linked to previously (published by the US Catholic Church) compares it to inviting a guests to dinner and not permitting them to eat.



https://www.foryourmarriage.org/interfaith-marriages/



I wonder why that thinking isn't applied to the other Christian elements, such as Bible readings and blessings, which are still included in Catholic Church weddings between a Catholic and a non-Christian (see the Kerknet article or this one in English). Perhaps the difference is the expectation of personal participation.

Yeah I am referring to that press announcement.
As for the ritual I think it is a matter of inclusiveness. Anyone can listen to a reading, especially considering the Church suggests readings that are about love and marital life for wedding ceremonies rather than readings about religious/theological matters and you don't necessarily need to believe to listen to them..the Communion however it is a moment of sharing your faith with the whole congregation. It is a bit like inviting someone to dinner and serving food they cannot eat.
In this particular occasion, given the groom's Jewish origins I am sure they will be able to find a common ground in readings from the Old Testament and his family will certainly feel included in the ceremony.

 

[cdm]

Duc et pair is right.
As a Belgian i’ve seen a lot of different versions of church weddings.
The wording is adapted according to the wishes of the couple and in collaboration with the priest.

The difference in religion is not an issue in the Belgian press.

Filip and Mathilde’s family have two wedding weekends in a row as this weekend Mathilde’s brother is getting married.

 

[Skippy]

I think it is consistent with Delphine having been invited to official and semiofficial family events before since she was legally recognized as Albert's daughter.

That is true, but those events were related to her direct family (father and half-siblings). Anyway, I'm not used to warm family relations, hence my reaction.

Weren't there video clips from inside the church as well?

There was a relatively short snippet indeed, originally posted on Daily Mail website. It's on YouTube, under Prince Amedeo married Elisabetta in a fairy-tale wedding.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Can anybody share the order of service for civil weddings in Brussels/Belgium?

Thank you to everyone for the answers regarding Belgian and/or Catholic church weddings. It makes sense that the couple are using the musical program as their opportunity to incorporate the groom's Jewish background, when non-Christian songs are already popular in Belgian Catholic ceremonies.

I still wonder if William Isvy will be asked the standard question in the Catholic marriage service about his willingness to bring up his children "according to the spirit of Christ and his church", or whether that phrase is modified when the spouse is non-Christian. Perhaps the video footage from the wedding will answer the question.

I also wonder if any French influences will be incorporated, given that both Princess Maria Laura and William Isvy have French fathers and hold dual citizenship of France themselves. (It's mildly interesting how the princess's parents were two children of Italian women who met and married each other even though both were raised of outside Italy, and now in the next generation two children of Frenchmen have met and will marry in spite of being raised outside of France.)

The marriage of a Belgian royal princess to someone who is (openly) not Christian is historic for the Belgian royal family and European royalty in general, but it is not surprising that the press is taking little to no interest in it. The public interest in the Belgian royals' private lives, Princess Astrid's children, and religion in general is limited.

Nonetheless, I wonder if the couple had their unusual for European royalty religious disparity in mind when they had someone (identified as their spokesman Hervé Verhoosel in one article) issue the following statement (which I don't think has been posted here yet) on their behalf when they announced their engagement. Given how private the couple are, there are not that many publicly known "differences" between them.

https://soirmag.lesoir.be/415125/article/2021-12-30/la-niece-du-roi-est-fiancee

Translation: "From the importance family has for them to their personal investment in their professional lives, from their interest in contemporary art to travel, from issues connected to the environment and the future of our society to the importance of of taking the time to simply talk with friends. Even if they have some differences, they complement each other very well and open new horizons for each other. It is a really beautiful story."

 

[Skippy]

Another question that occurred to me: since Prince Gabriël missed his uncle's wedding yesterday due to being at military camp, should we take it into account that he will also miss his cousin's wedding this Saturday?