Edinburgh and Wessex Titles


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I have silently wondered since Edward recived the title of Earl of Forfar, to have a scottish title, as the Wessex-title is english and Severn-title is welsh, if that would be an indicator that the Edinburgh-plans have been dropped….

Everyone realizes that there is a risk that Scotland is departing the Kingdom somewhere along the way during Charles’ reign…

With a relatively young new Duke of Edinburgh and with James as the heir to the dukedom, it could create a weird situation…

I would love to see Edward and Sophie become a Duke and Duchess (who wouldn’t) but if they don’t want to - that should be respected… Yes i know about the publicly announced agreement from 1999 but that’s many years ago now and people can always change their minds….. We can only wait and see what happens…
 
I haven't received the impression from the Earl of Wessex's recent (2021) interviews that he has soured on becoming Duke of Edinburgh. The interviews have been posted here previously, but here they are again:


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-but-his-brother-is-not-on-his-side-77v25z3b0
https://archive.ph/0XuTJ

Edward is thought to be aware that his hope of becoming the next Duke of Edinburgh is not a done deal. In an interview with the BBC last month to mark what would have been Philip’s 100th birthday, he was asked: “You will be the next Duke of Edinburgh, when the Prince of Wales becomes king, that is quite something to take on?”

Edward replied: “It was fine in theory, ages ago when it was sort of a pipe dream of my father’s . . . and of course it will depend on whether or not the Prince of Wales, when he becomes king, whether he’ll do that, so we’ll wait and see. So yes, it will be quite a challenge taking that on.”​


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...matter-earl-countess-wessex-grieving-grandpa/


The Countess recalls the time when, two days after their engagement, Prince Philip popped round to ask his youngest (and, some say, favourite) son if he would be willing to become the next Duke of Edinburgh. ‘We sat there slightly stunned. He literally came straight in and said: “Right. I’d like it very much if you would consider that.”’

The Earl is almost apologetic as he admits that ‘theoretically’ the title should go to the Duke of York. ‘It’s a very bittersweet role to take on because the only way the title can come to me is after both my parents have actually passed away,’ he explains. ‘It has to go back to the Crown first. ‘My father was very keen that the title should continue, but he didn’t quite move quickly enough with Andrew, so it was us who he eventually had the conversation with. It was a lovely idea; a lovely thought.’


And once more, the 1999 agreement:

https://web.archive.org/web/2014020...ews/title_of_hrh_the_prince_edward/40309.html

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.​
 
well Edward can't say too much, can he? If he is not that keen on the idea, he can hardly say that he does not want it.. if he IS keen on the idea, he can't sound TOO enthusiastic about it, as it IS something that he could only get when Philip died and the queen too.
And as has been said, there may be issues with its being a Scottish title so he may be cagey about saying that he's looking forward to it, because possibly Charles may feel it is not a good idea to give him Edinburgh.
 
I have silently wondered since Edward recived the title of Earl of Forfar, to have a scottish title, as the Wessex-title is english and Severn-title is welsh, if that would be an indicator that the Edinburgh-plans have been dropped….

Everyone realizes that there is a risk that Scotland is departing the Kingdom somewhere along the way during Charles’ reign…

Opinion in Scotland seems very evenly split though that could change in the future one way or the other. The other scenario is that Scotland becomes the Quebec of the UK. Always about to leave but never quite getting there.

Either way it might be thought politically expedient not to give any Scottish titles to members of the rf apart from the monarch/heir or their spouses.

The other consideration might be that because Edinburgh was held by The Queen's husband the title being given to The King's youngest brother could be seen as a bit of a demotion. After all Edinburgh is the capitol of one of the two pre-union kingdoms.

If The King wants to give his brother a dukedom maybe another option might be considered. Possibly as a life peerage to set a precedent?
 
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Opinion in Scotland seems very evenly split though that could change in the future one way or the other. The other scenario is that Scotland becomes the Quebec of the UK. Always about to leave but never quite getting there.

Either way it might be thought politically expedient not to give any Scottish titles to members of the rf apart from the monarch/heir or their spouses.

The other consideration might be that because Edinburgh was held by The Queen's husband the title being given to The King's youngest brother could be seen as a bit of a demotion. After all Edinburgh is the capitol of one of the two pre-union kingdoms.

If The King wants to give his brother a dukedom maybe another option might be considered. Possibly as a life peerage to set a precedent?
There is no reason at all to give Edward another dukedom. The queen could have easily done that at the time of their marriage. However, the family decided that it was preferable that Edward would receive his father's dukedom at some point to continue that dukedom among his descendants - however, that would only be possible down the road when both his parents would have died...

And I don't think a dukedom being given to one of the queen's children is a demotion. Edward is in line to the throne and Philip never was.

And why suddenly make it a 'life peerage': the NEXT generation already received dukedoms, so it would be really backwards to give the PREVIOUS generation a life peerage. If Charles wants to make these changes, these should be done going forwards in terms of generation, not going backwards.
 
But the political situation in Scotland is very different to what it was over two decades ago so who knows. So what made sense then might do so now which is why another dukedom might be being considered.

As the monarch's husband Prince Philip was granted precedence immediately after her & before the heir apparent. A prince consort in all but name. So Edinburgh as the capital (not capitol as I mistyped !) of the other ancient kingdom was given an appropriate elevation in terms of royal titles.

Edinburgh was also given to the second son of Queen Victoria.

Life peerages for "working" members of the rf make sense going forward I think. If doesn't matter who you begin with but you've got to start somewhere otherwise nothing ever changes.
 
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I dont get the impression that Edward is enthusiastic... saying It was fine in theory... Or possibly he knows that Charles may not want to give it or may be feeling that it is a political problem, if he does give it. so he is not saying anything very strong.. just "we'll have to wait and see".
 
This has been discussed in the relevant title threads for some time. However, it is clear the DM doesn't know what they are talking about as they claim the king will 'keep it himself' - that is not possible. The title merged with the crown, so he no longer has it.

Instead, King Charles will keep the title himself, although not use it, a courtier explained.
 
Sophie is such an asset yo the BRF, she really deserves to be elevated to a royal Duchess and I hope that happens soon. If not Edinburgh then something else.

How about just keep the title 'Wessex' but make them Duke & Duchess of Wessex, if they can't be Edinburgh. I think they deserve being Duke & Duchess myself.
 

So, according to this article, giving Edward the title "Duke of Edinburgh" would ruin Charles's plan for a slimmed down monarchy because James would eventually inherit. Good grief. They obviously don't understand the way the titles work.

Because James would potentially inherit the dukedom does not mean he is part of the monarchy. Ask any of the ducal peers in England.
 
If it's true that there was a change of plans, I suspect it had been decided by 2019. The second earldom, twenty years after the first, didn't make a huge amount of sense in a world where he was soon going to have a superior peerage named after another Scottish city.
 
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I am wondering if it has been decided that the Title Duke of Edinburgh should be put on hold almost as a tribute to Philip as it is so well connected with him.

It will never be possible to fill his shoes, less pressure on Edward.
 
I don't think Edward will ever become the Duke of Edinburgh:

A) He was apparently offered a dukedom as a wedding present, but he didn't want it. He also didn't want his children to be styled as HRH prince(ss). That in itself tells a lot.

B) Receiving a Scottish title in 2019, 20 years after receiving an English title and a Welsh title, tells me it's the only Scottish title he'll have. Why would the late Queen give him this title if he was still going to receive the Edinburgh one in a few years time? After all, in 2019 both the Queen and prince Philip were well into their nineties and most likely didn't have many years ahead.

C) I think both Edward and Sophie have grown to like the Wessex title. Many people refer to Sophie as Sophie Wessex. It's almost like a surname. And I think Edward and Sophie notice that and are probably perfectly comfortable about it.

Personally, I would prefer them to keep the Wessex title as their main title. But if they or other royals or the King really want them to become a duke and duchess, why not Duke of Wessex?
Those who want them to become duke and duchess would at least partially be pleased. And those who don't want them (or anyone else) to become the Duke of Edinburgh at this point, for whatever reason, wouldn't be too disappointed either.
 
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I don't think Edward will ever become the Duke of Edinburgh:

A) He was apparently offered a dukedom as a wedding present, but he didn't want it. He also didn't want his children to be styled as HRH prince(ss). That in itself tells a lot.
What is your source for this information? Edward himself says that his father asked him to consider taking the Duke of Edinburgh title as he wanted it to be passed down among his descendants - however, that would require waiting for this title until both his parents' had passed.

B) Receiving a Scottish title in 2019, 20 years after receiving an English title and a Welsh title, tells me it's the only Scottish title he'll have. Why would the late Queen give him this title if he was still going to receive the Edinburgh one in a few years time? After all, in 2019 both the Queen and prince Philip were well into their nineties and most likely didn't have many years ahead.
Maybe Charles informed the queen that he indeed did not intend to keep their agreement of giving the Duke of Edinburgh title to his youngest brother; and she therefore tried to amend it a little bit by giving him an additional Scottish title.

C) I think both Edward and Sophie have grown to like the Wessex title. Many people refer to Sophie as Sophie Wessex. It's almost like a surname. And I think Edward and Sophie notice that and are probably perfectly comfortable about it.
While I am sure they like the Wessex title - that doesn't mean that they no longer wish to also get the Edinburgh title that belonged to their beloved father(-in-law) who entrusted the Duke of Edinburgh awards to them as well.

Personally, I would prefer them to keep the Wessex title as their main title. But if they or other royals or the King really want them to become a duke and duchess, why not Duke of Wessex?
Those who want them to become duke and duchess would at least partially be pleased. And those who don't want them (or anyone else) to become the Duke of Edinburgh at this point, for whatever reason, wouldn't be too disappointed either.
The point has never been about them getting a different dukedom; had that been the intention, it could have been arranged way before. The only reason they did NOT get the title was for them to be given the Duke of Edinburgh title according to Prince Philip's strong desire for them (and for the title).

If Charles for some reason doesn't give it to them, I hope William will do it one day :flowers:
 
Putting the Duke of Edinburgh title on hold would not be a tribute to Pr. Philip but rather a slap in the face. This plan to give it to Edward was specifically made so that Pr. Philip's title would go to one of his sons. As a titled aristocrat it is extremely important that a man's title be passed down to his son and to his son's heir etc. To deny him that is practically to make him a non-entity.
 
How about just keep the title 'Wessex' but make them Duke & Duchess of Wessex, if they can't be Edinburgh. I think they deserve being Duke & Duchess myself.
EllieCat, What an excellent idea!

Upon his marriage to Sophie, was Prince Edward offered the dukedom of Cambridge?
 

However, it is clear the DM doesn't know what they are talking about as they claim the king will 'keep it himself' - that is not possible. The title merged with the crown, so he no longer has it.

So, according to this article, giving Edward the title "Duke of Edinburgh" would ruin Charles's plan for a slimmed down monarchy because James would eventually inherit. Good grief. They obviously don't understand the way the titles work.

Because James would potentially inherit the dukedom does not mean he is part of the monarchy. Ask any of the ducal peers in England.

The anonymous courtier is the person who made the misinformed statements, although the writer of the article ought to have factchecked them.

Yes, the courtier clearly lacks insight into how British titles function. However, I am afraid it is not impossible that the courtier's views are shared by senior royals or court officials. There have certainly been incidents in the past which demonstrated that even royals and their advisors are sometimes ignorant about titles or other aspects of their own monarchies.

It is also possible that the courtier is simply making excuses because the real motive for the turnaround is not something the King wishes to highlight for the public. Fear of Scotland leaving the union and resentment of his brother have been suggested, and if either of those concerns are real, they are not something that the king would be keen to share with the public, even in unofficial leaks.

While I would normally not put too much stock into a single anonymous source in the Daily Mail, I think it is significant that over the last year and a half there have been multiple leaks to separate media outlets (including at least one reported by a respected royal correspondent) indicating that the public agreement between Elizabeth, Philip and Charles in 1999 is unlikely to be fulfilled - and that there have been no leaks attempting to rebut those stories.

I also think the then-Prince Charles's statement to People magazine in 2021 backtracking on the 1999 agreement by stating that "no final decisions have been taken", Prince Edward's own interviews in 2021 suggesting it was an open possibility but not a guarantee, and the 2019 grant of a Scottish earldom all lend credibility to the leaks.

(The aforementioned announcements and articles have all been posted on this forum, many of them in this thread, but if someone wishes me to repost them I can do so.)


A) He was apparently offered a dukedom as a wedding present, but he didn't want it. He also didn't want his children to be styled as HRH prince(ss). That in itself tells a lot.

The agreement on the eventual grant of the dukedom of Edinburgh and the decision on the styles of future children were announced in the same press release, so he evidently didn't see any contradiction between them. (I don't either.)


Upon his marriage to Sophie, was Prince Edward offered the dukedom of Cambridge?

It was what an anonymous courtier claimed, speaking to Richard Eden of the Telegraph in 2010:

Titles suggested for William include the Duke of Cambridge and the Duke of Suffolk. "Prince Edward was going to be the Duke of Cambridge, but he watched the film Shakespeare in Love, which had a character called the Earl of Wessex," says the courtier. "He liked the sound of it and asked the Queen if he could have that instead."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...am-asks-the-Queen-not-to-make-him-a-duke.html

Whether or not the bit about Cambridge is true (it could have been intended as a stopgap until he received the planned dukedom of Edinburgh), I trust the story about the Earl of Wessex title being inspired by the film Shakespeare in Love. The story has been reported elsewhere, the film premiered the year before Prince Edward's marriage, the title had not been used since the 11th century, and Prince Edward (who aspired to a film career) was certainly more interested in present-day films than in 11th-century English history.
 
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Question in my head right now for any Forum member that has better information on this. Can King Charles III at present time upgrade an old title associated with the royals, like Earl (a.k.a. count in other countries) of Wessex to a Dukedom? What stops or prevents him from changing it?

Also, in the same line of questioning, the Duchy of Edinburgh is a hereditary title and that's a main reason why to keep it away from unhinged royals today I assume. Can King Charles III decree it as a lifetime title instead like, for example, the Princess Royale title?

If it was a survey, I would love it to be given to Prince George's sister Princess Charlote and start a new tradition on the female lines like Duchess of Edinburgh for a princess that doesn't have the use of Princess Royale at the moment, since the current P. Royale is still alive.
 
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Question in my head right now for any Forum member that has better information on this. Can King Charles III at present time upgrade an old title associated with the royals, like Earl (a.k.a. count in other countries) of Wessex to a Dukedom? What stops or prevents him from changing it?

Also, in the same line of questioning, the Duchy of Edinburgh is a hereditary title and that's a main reason why to keep it away from unhinged royals today I assume. Can King Charles III decree it as a lifetime title instead like, for example, the Princess Royale title?

If it was a survey, I would love it to be given to Prince George's sister Princess Charlote and start a new tradition on the female lines like Duchess of Edinburgh for a princess that doesn't have the use of Princess Royale at the moment, since the current P. Royale is still alive.

The King can create a Dukedom of Wessex. Prince Edward would then be Duke of Wessex, Earl of Wessex and Forfar and Viscount Severn. The King is also free to make the title hereditary or for life and could, if he wanted too, make it gender neutral.
 
Question in my head right now for any Forum member that has better information on this. Can King Charles III at present time upgrade an old title associated with the royals, like Earl (a.k.a. count in other countries) of Wessex to a Dukedom? What stops or prevents him from changing it?


I think (without any real knowledge) that the title of Earl of Wessex would have to be declared extinct before Duke of Wessex could be created. A title can be elevated, as has been done before. Ex. Earldom of Cumberland (extinct in 1643) being elevated to Dukedom of Cumberland (created in 1644).


Has another royal Earldom been elevated to a Dukedom?
 
I think (without any real knowledge) that the title of Earl of Wessex would have to be declared extinct before Duke of Wessex could be created. A title can be elevated, as has been done before. Ex. Earldom of Cumberland (extinct in 1643) being elevated to Dukedom of Cumberland (created in 1644).


Has another royal Earldom been elevated to a Dukedom?


Not royal but the Earl Fife was created as Duke of Fife when he married Princess Louise.
 
I think (without any real knowledge) that the title of Earl of Wessex would have to be declared extinct before Duke of Wessex could be created.

Not if it is for the same person.
 
Not royal but the Earl Fife was created as Duke of Fife when he married Princess Louise.

And not just once - twice! Queen Victoria granted the title a second time when it became obvious the couple weren't going to have male heirs. The second version allowed their daughters to inherit.

So, between 1900 and his death in 1912, the first Duke was actually Duke of Fife twice over.
 
Putting the Duke of Edinburgh title on hold would not be a tribute to Pr. Philip but rather a slap in the face. This plan to give it to Edward was specifically made so that Pr. Philip's title would go to one of his sons. As a titled aristocrat it is extremely important that a man's title be passed down to his son and to his son's heir etc. To deny him that is practically to make him a non-entity.

well Edward referred to it as a Pipe dream of his father's, so it sounds as if he 's not that keen on receiving it.
 
I can't believe that if Edward somehow didn't want to be DoE, he wouldn't have simply explained to his father. Philip would not have appreciated being appeased.

I think Edward's comments sound more like trying to save a little face in the event he doesn't get it.
 
Putting the Duke of Edinburgh title on hold would not be a tribute to Pr. Philip but rather a slap in the face. This plan to give it to Edward was specifically made so that Pr. Philip's title would go to one of his sons. As a titled aristocrat it is extremely important that a man's title be passed down to his son and to his son's heir etc. To deny him that is practically to make him a non-entity.

I wonder if Prince Philip would have a change of mind had the Duke of York's scandals happened while he was both alive and aware of the news outside of his circle. I got the feeling QEII kept many bad news from his knowledge as hi health and mind deteriorated with age.

KCIII as the king, in the know and awareness of his brother's antics at a more personal level, should find another way to pay tribute to his father Prince Philip. He, King Charles, is the decision maker. He oversees the entire family to be kept in check and away from scandals that would reflect on his rule, William's and George's after him.

The dukedom of Edinburgh is not to be given away like an old chair, a toaster or any heirloom just because. Especially when the people of York are protesting to have their town name associated with the Duke of York.

Just imagine Andrew as the hereditary Duke of Edinburgh only because Prince Philip wanted him to have his title? He would be a tabloid ammunition leading to the next referendum in Scotland. Let's face it, Andrew's reputation has become so toxic he should be thanked and retired from The Firm. Then save or pass the Edinburgh title to another future generation, and possibly be gender neutral and non-hereditary so it can be reused on different lines.
 
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Question in my head right now for any Forum member that has better information on this. Can King Charles III at present time upgrade an old title associated with the royals, like Earl (a.k.a. count in other countries) of Wessex to a Dukedom? What stops or prevents him from changing it?

Also, in the same line of questioning, the Duchy of Edinburgh is a hereditary title and that's a main reason why to keep it away from unhinged royals today I assume. Can King Charles III decree it as a lifetime title instead like, for example, the Princess Royale title?

If it was a survey, I would love it to be given to Prince George's sister Princess Charlote and start a new tradition on the female lines like Duchess of Edinburgh for a princess that doesn't have the use of Princess Royale at the moment, since the current P. Royale is still alive.


Charles could upgrade the Wessex Earldom to a Dukedom although that hasn't happened for over a century now.

There is no Duchy of Edinburgh. There are only two Duchies - Lancaster (Charles) and Cornwall (William). A Duchy provides income and Edinburgh it simply a title and provides no income so it is a Dukedom.

No Charles can't make it a 'life peerage'. When the life peerage title act was passed it said that life peerages could only be a Baron/Baroness. Life peerages also give the holder a seat in the House of Lords. Having the brother of the monarch having the right to sit in the House of Lords would be against the spirit of the reform of the House of Lords.

I don't see Charlotte being given a Dukedom at all but I do see William making her Princess Royal. That is a special title with special meaning while Dukedoms aren't so special with quite a few of them around.
 
I wonder if Prince Philip would have a change of mind had the Duke of York's scandals happened while he was both alive and aware of the news outside of his circle. I got the feeling QEII kept many bad news from his knowledge as hi health and mind deteriorated with age.

KCIII as the king, in the know and awareness of his brother's antics at a more personal level, should find another way to pay tribute to his father Prince Philip. He, King Charles, is the decision maker. He oversees the entire family to be kept in check and away from scandals that would reflect on his rule, William's and George's after him.

The dukedom of Edinburgh is not to be given away like an old chair, a toaster or any heirloom just because. Especially when the people of York are protesting to have their town name associated with the Duke of York.

Just imagine Andrew as the hereditary Duke of Edinburgh only because Prince Philip wanted him to have his title? He would be a tabloid ammunition leading to the next referendum in Scotland. Let's face it, Andrew's reputation has become so toxic he should be thanked and retired from The Firm. Then save or pass the Edinburgh title to another future generation, and possibly be gender neutral and non-hereditary so it can be reused on different lines.

I love how Andrew is vilified for his association with a paedophile while Charles' connections with two are conveniently swept under the carpet. Charles was friends with Jimmy Saville and that man was a total monster using his charity work as a cover for his activities and choosing victims who wouldn't be believed because of who they were e.g. girls in Reform Schools. Charles was friendly with this monster for much of their combined adult lives with Saville insinuating his way into Charles' circle through his charity work. Saville was also friendly with Diana. Many people 'knew' about Saville but covered it up as he was such a 'lovable person'.

Charles, and the late Queen, both also showed, in forcing Andrew to settle with then made the majority of the world believe he was guilty, that neither of them believe in what was once the cornerstone of British justice and a concept they were/are both supposed to uphold 'innocent until proven guilty'. Andrew hasn't been charged with a crime. In fact the FBI and Met have both said there was no crime with which he could be charged ... but that isn't good enough for Charles and the late Queen.

I would love Andrew to now go and marry a 30 something young lady who promptly gave birth to a number of sons so York had an heir.
 
Charles could upgrade the Wessex Earldom to a Dukedom although that hasn't happened for over a century now.

There is no Duchy of Edinburgh. There are only two Duchies - Lancaster (Charles) and Cornwall (William). A Duchy provides income and Edinburgh it simply a title and provides no income so it is a Dukedom.

No Charles can't make it a 'life peerage'. When the life peerage title act was passed it said that life peerages could only be a Baron/Baroness. Life peerages also give the holder a seat in the House of Lords. Having the brother of the monarch having the right to sit in the House of Lords would be against the spirit of the reform of the House of Lords.

I don't see Charlotte being given a Dukedom at all but I do see William making her Princess Royal. That is a special title with special meaning while Dukedoms aren't so special with quite a few of them around.

Thanks to everyone helping me on that question. :flowers:

I didn't know there was a difference between Duchy and Dukedom :ohmy: Now I have to find more information on this topic since my frame of reference was the European continental model of the title Duke annd particularly in my old country Spain and its 149 Dukes

Iluvbertie, you now sparked my curiosity to research more, thanks! ?
 
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