Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[Lady Nimue]

A damning, if long, summation of the persona and character of Edward by Tommy Lascelles, who served him for over twenty years as (Assistant) Private Secretary and his view of the role Mrs Simpson played in the run-up to the Abdication Crisis, following the death of King George V.

This is an interesting portrait of the Duke of Windsor by a man who knew him very well.

Prince Charmless: A damning portrait of Edward VIII | Daily Mail Online

Fascinating read. Made more enjoyable because he is an excellent writer.

Consider this elegantly stated, albeit damning, summation: "He had, in my opinion and experience, no comprehension of the ordinary axioms of rational, or ethical, behaviour; fundamental ideas of duty, dignity and self-sacrifice had no meaning for him. And so isolated was he in the world of his own desires that I do not think he ever felt affection - absolute, objective affection - for any living being, not excluding the members of his own family."

 

[royal rob]

I agree very interesting

 

[Queen Claude]

The Windsors - Nazi Sympathisers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HBektXvZPc

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Fascinating read. Made more enjoyable because he is an excellent writer.

Consider this elegantly stated, albeit damning, summation: "He had, in my opinion and experience, no comprehension of the ordinary axioms of rational, or ethical, behaviour; fundamental ideas of duty, dignity and self-sacrifice had no meaning for him. And so isolated was he in the world of his own desires that I do not think he ever felt affection - absolute, objective affection - for any living being, not excluding the members of his own family."

OUCH!! I mean..no affection for any living being...not even his beloved(I thought) Wallis?!

 

[Osipi]

Perhaps what the author was alluding to is that David's love of Wallis was not an unconditional love for another person but more so as one would love a possession. How Wallis made him feel, how Wallis soothed him and different aspects of loving someone because of what they can provide for oneself.

Its purely supposition as we do know that once David latched onto Wallis, there was nothing that was ever going to convince him to let go. He probably did deeply love her but we'll never know the reasons why he loved her.

As far as being Nazi sympathizers, at the time that they were drawn to the ideals of the Third Reich, it was mostly a ideal of how a society should be similar to Socialism or Facism and how political parties are drawn to certain modes of thinking such as Democrats, Republicans, Whigs and Tories. You get the picture. With us looking back at the Nazi party in hindsight, we tend to forget that many, many people thought Hitler was right and genius. The horrors and the heinous acts that stemmed from Hitler's regime in WWII had not even been thought of yet.

 

[Curryong]

I certainly don't think that Edward and Wallis were full-blown Nazis. They were however very right wing (as the Duke of Kent also was) and many of the Nazi philiosophies were, to put it bluntly, not disagreeable, to them.

Yes, many British aristocrats were right wing and appeasers before the war, but what are we to make of the Windsors' continuing close friendship with Sir Oswald Mosley (one time leader of the British Fascists) and his wife Diana, long after the war. Neither Oswald or Diana were unrepentant in their views until their deaths.

I don't think these sorts of friendships can be completely excused by being very anti Communist, by wanting to appease Nazism and prevent war, when the couple were regular guests of the Windsors in the 1960s.

Previously, the Windsors had enjoyed several friendships with shadowy wealthy international figures before and during the war and most had links with Nazi Germany.

Certainly Edward shared an anti-Semitic streak with Adolf and his circle. I remember reading Lilli Palmer's autobiography. Lilli was Jewish and wrote of the Duke and Duchess's yearly visits to her and her then husband Rex Harrison's home by a beautiful Italian bay, and how the Duke would throw 'Yids' carelessly into his conversation when talking after dinner in their garden. This wasn't in the 1940s or even '30s but the 1950s.

 

[Osipi]

I'm really not that widely read on David and Wallis and am finding reading this thread very interesting.

With all I know about David and his penchant for not being overly involved or even really wanting to be involved in the political scene and was definitely not king material, I would hazard a guess that when they entertained or were entertained by various friends and couples, the talk didn't run very deep. David and Wallis always came across to me as loving to live the high life and socialize and see and be seen. I don't think world politics would have been of much interest to this couple if they could party. Their friends may have been actively involved in social activism but I would hazard a guess that when they were with the Windsors, it was purely for entertainment.

This may be totally off the wall but its just my suppositions. People are sometimes judged by the company they keep but there'd be exceptions to that rule if they kept company with people solely out for a good time.

 

[Curryong]

On the contrary there were signs, even when his father was alive, that David did want to make his views known on the international situation. There was a speech the POW made to a returned serviceman's club in the mid 1930s for example in which he appealed for understanding and appeasement towards the Germans in order to prevent war. This caused a stir and a reproof from George V. David made it very clear in the 1930's that friendship with a modern, go ahead state like Germany was vital to Britain's interests and those of the Empire. I believe he wouldn't have minded a non aggression pact between the two powers at all.

The Mosleys weren't party people and were among the Windsors most intimate friends. The Duke and Sir Oswald had many discussions after the war on national and international politics.

The Harrisons were very much younger, not such confidantes and it may have been that their house and its surroundings were a great attraction. However, it was an indication of the Duke's anti-Semetism, at a time when people knew about Auschwitz and Dachau and were a lot more circumspect in their conversation about Jewish people, that he was still using derogatory terms to describe members of the Jewish faith.

 

[Osipi]

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the Windsors. Seems I need to get busy and start reading more about these two fascinating people to totally understand them and the world they lived in.

I just always have pictured David as being more of a narcissist type person with little to no interest in "deeper" subject such as the world around him.

What books would you suggest?

 

[Pranter]

I think some of the key players in the UK at the time were somewhat relieved about the abdication due to some of the views he'd expressed about the Germans.


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

Yes, Osipi, they are fascinating! I would begin with that excellent and very readable book 'King Edward VIII' by Philip Ziegler. It's very well researched, goes into his whole life and the Abdication Crisis and features Wallis of course! Michael Bloch's 'The Duke of Windsor's War' is also essential in understanding David's persona, IMO. After that, of course there are innumerable books on the Duchess and a few on their circle, including the Mosleys. However, I would definitely begin with the above two books. I believe both are on Kindle and Amazon (which is where I get my sadly huge collection of out of print books!)

 

[Osipi]

Got those books saved into my book wish list file and hopefully will be able to find them for cheap come May 1st when the "magic money" hits my bank.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, although keep in mind that Bloch didn't know the Windsors during WW 2 and is in many way an apologist for them, as was his wife. I put that book in as a counter to the many anti-Windsor books which don't speak well of the Duke and Duchess's actions during the war. However, Bloch does have fresh material in that book.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...land-to-be-bombed-international-10306121.html

 

[Osipi]

Now I'm really looking forward to getting both books. Sadly to say, I've never really been interested in and have avoided most things that have to do with the WWII era. Don't ask me why. I'm the same about westerns and the Wild West.

I always do get excited though about wanting to delve into something new and this fits the bill for May and my reading list.

 

[Denville]

On the contrary there were signs, even when his father was alive, that David did want to make his views known on the international situation. of the Empire. I believe he wouldn't have minded a non aggression pact between the two powers at all.

The Mosleys weren't party people and were among the Windsors most intimate friends. The Duke and Sir Oswald had many discussions after the war on national and international politics.

The Harrisons were very much younger, not such confidantes and it may have been that their house and its surroundings were a great attraction. However, it was an indication of the Duke's anti-Semetism, at a time when people knew about Auschwitz and Dachau and were a lot more circumspect in their conversation about Jewish people, that he was still using derogatory terms to describe members of the Jewish faith.

Yes and No. I don't thnk that wallis or David were really that political and didn't have the brains to take an intelligent interest I politics. And I think for Wallis her life was mainly very trivial socialising and she hung out with and thought about people who were rich famous and amusing.. and she wasn't realy concerned at all about politics.
David was a bit more so,as he ahd of course grown up in a royal family and knew something about world affairs even if he wasn't exactly Brain of Britain. And yes he did hate the idea of another war, as did many people for "good reasons", George V said he hated the idea too..but in the end he knew it had to come to war.
David was a bit more pro German and loudly anti Bolshevik. (nad of course the RF DID have many German relatives).

many upper class people of Davidis generation and his fathers were to a degree anti Semitic but it did not always preclude their knowing and being friendly with Jewish people.. and they used language that seems horrible to us, without its meaning that they wanted to harm Jews much less exterminate tehm..
but I agree that David DID after the war continue to say stupid things which indicated that he hadn't learned very much.. not even to keep his mouth shut..
How much that was political conviction I don't know. I think that it was more like stupidity, that he just didn't realise that after the war, even people who DID continue to have anti semitic feelings had learned to shut up about them for fear of being branded a vicious Nazi anti semite who favoured extermination...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is like with Diana: endless and endless "histories", characterizations, condemnations, psychologic replacement of air and what not more. Of course always very handy and convenient that the persons in question are not living anymore. And a book with a balanced view on Edward Windsor will not generate as much interest as a book with juicy details and compromitting stories: good for the talkshows and newspaper articles: good for the sales.

 

[Curryong]

Well, that certainly isn't the case with the book I reccommended in an earlier post. Philip Ziegler's 'King Edward VII' is a serious, and balanced, biography.

 

[Denville]

True but there are a lot of sensational bios of Wallis and David out there. Not surprising as they did act oddly for Royals, and so its easy to make up or exaggerate..

 

[Osipi]

Perhaps because of training in journalism, I prefer to stay away from the juicy, the scandalous and the tell all kind of crap people like to push out just to make the green dollars off of someone else.

BTW: I did get Ziegler's "King Edward VIII" for dirt cheap. Looking forwards to reading it. Its time to add more serious biographies of British royals to my library.

 

[Denville]

well the're fun some of them, as long as you exercise your critical faculties, However the Ziegler bio is I think the best one out there and is a serious scholarly work...
And Osipi I think that you're right in that Wallis at least was not inot politics except that she was right wing. Daivd wasn't a card carrying Nazi either, certainly. He was naturally a conservative and got more so as he got older.
And his fear of Bolsehvism made him turn to a certain symapthy with the Nazis at first at least.. as did many rich conservative people. They often felt that Hitler was a bit of a rough type but that "when he became head of a country he'd settle down and be less vehement and more pragmatic, and that he would at least prevent Germany from going communist..>"

 

[sndral]

I recently finished another biography about the Duke and Duchess (not my first.)
David was an extremely popular Prince of Wales. His preference for married women as partners was unknown to the public. Likewise his tendency to shirk some of his responsibilities wasn't widely known. He liked the adulation/the glamour of his position, he disliked the tedious day to day grind and the rigidity of his father's court/courtiers. He had thoughts of modernizing the monarchy and the country - which may have run afoul of his apolitical position as King.
I think when he abdicated he believed that he could carry on as the very popular Prince he had been his whole life yet shed the dull less glamorous aspects of being King. He certainly was more charismatic than his brother George VI & perhaps he thought he could continue on as the popular Prince he'd always been, while Bertie, the less charismatic brother, could handle the less glamorous things that go w/ being King. Bertie had always deferred to David before the abdication, David may have assumed that he would afterwards as well.
What David and Wallis under estimated was Queen Elizabeth's astute reading of the need for David to be out of the picture so that Bertie could establish his own reign and that David's influence on Bertie would lessen because of the shift in their roles as well as Elizabeth's resolve to protect her husband's position from encroachment by David.
Thus I don't think David & Wallis ever envisioned him becoming as superfluous as he became, I think they envisioned a role for him as a Prince post abdication much like before he became King.

 

[Denville]

pretty much on the spot.. (though she's Wallis not Wallace).
I think David did not really realise that he would not be welcome in the UK once he had abdicated.. he thougt that he could give up the Throne and the obligations such as making a suitable marriage.. and that he could "junk" the dull parts of his duties, and just do some engagements when it suited him and he would stil be treated as a prince if not a king..and so he got annoyed when Wallis was not treated or titled as a royal wife.. and that was one reason he went to Germany, so that he and she couodl be almost like a king and queen again.
As POW he had worked quite hard and done a lot of tours and been deservedly popular, and in the War he had tried ot get to do active duty.. but as he grew older, he seemed to get more trivial minded and selfish...

 

[sndral]

thanks - wish I could blame auto correct, but I'm afraid it was my tired brain. I've corrected my post. Interesting that she chose to be known by Wallis rather than her actual first name - Bessie or Bessiewallis.

 

[Denville]

thanks - wish I could blame auto correct, but I'm afraid it was my tired brain. I've corrected my post. Interesting that she chose to be known by Wallis rather than her actual first name - Bessie or Bessiewallis.

I'm sorry!! It just does sound like a man's name to me.. As I recall she said that "Bessiewallis" sounded like a cow and her aunt was Bessie..
My pet peeve is people saying Jane Austin for Jane Austen!

 

[Osipi]

Oh! Another Austen fan! I love it!

I remember that statement from somewhere where Wallis said that Bessie sounds like a cow. When you think about it, Wallis is kind of unique and actually would resonate with high society better than Bessie.

 

[Curryong]

I believe the Wallis was her father Teackle Warfield's, middle name. It's a good job her parents didn't give her his Christian name!

 

[Countessmeout]

Indeed Wallis was Treacles middle name. She was named for her father and her aunt, her mothers older sister Bessie.

 

[Denville]

Werent there rumours that Wallis was illegimiate or at least conceived outside wedlock>

 

[Osipi]

That's a new one for me. I've never heard that rumor.

 

[rominet09]

Werent there rumours that Wallis was illegimiate or at least conceived outside wedlock>

I really don't like her but if it is true, it would not have been her fault !