rominet09
Heir Apparent
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- Jan 23, 2006
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- LIEGE
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Very surprised at this sudden death….at such an aniversary, sad for the rest of the family.
Hopefully Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, will attend the funeral.Will the Spanish Bourbon pretender to the throne attend the funeral ? Will he be invited ? ... [snipped]
My goodness...! This thread has been up all day and i am just now reading and realizing who it is about!
Had HRH been ill? This is quite unexpected....and
as others have pointed out, it comes on the anniversary of the death of Louis XVI.
Eternal rest. I expect a huge turnout of Royal Catholic Europe .
The funeral of the Comte de Paris would be an ideal way of cementing a permanent reconciliation between the Legitimist claimant and the new Orleanist claimant. The new Head of the Orleans branch appears to have always had a better relationship with his Spanish cousin than the late Comte de Paris. They could start by mutually acknowledging each other - one as Head of all the House of Bourbon and the other as Head of the Orleans branch in France (pedantic I know but symbolic of recognising each other’s claims). If this were older times then the children of both claimants could marry each other - such dreams!
I think Prince Jean d'Orléans and Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón do respect each other: the one is now the most senior of the House Bourbon-Orléans and the other is the most senior of the House Bourbon-Espagne.
However, Don Luis Alfonso was publicly dismissed as ainé des capétiens by the Comte de Paris. According (the now late) Prince Henri this was an incorrect position as the House Bourbon-Busset is the most senior branch of the House of Capet:
https://www.vexilla-galliae.fr/roya...e-ouverte-a-sar-le-prince-henri-duc-d-orleans
The Bourbon-Busset are an illegitimate branch of the Capetian dynasty, so, even though they may be genealogically the most senior branch of the dynasty, their claim to the throne is void.
Anyway, I don't think the Orléans dispute that Louis Alphonse is the most senior living agnatic descendant of Louis XIV and, as such, the most senior legitimate Bourbon. Instead, they dispute that Louis Alphonse is the legal heir to the French throne under the laws of and the international treaties signed by the Kingdom of France.
In other words, Louis Alphonse's claim to the French throne, rather than his claim to the headship of the House of Bourbon, is the real issue here.
PS: Although Louis Alphonse is also genealogically the most senior living member of the House of Bourbon-Espagne, again he is not the head of that House either. That would be the current King of Spain IMHO. We have to be careful then not to confuse agnatic seniority with either headship of a House or a claim to the throne, which are affected by other criteria as well.
I think the provocative part was the Spanish morganatic branch starting to claim & use French titles. Not that the French branch of the family is using its own titles for members of the family.
Didn't the late count of Paris start a courtcase to change the name of the dynasty to Bourbon d'Orleans? I believe he lost, so it is still simply Orleans.
Recently, the head of the house of Orléans, the comte de Paris, sued in French courts to have his family name changed from "Orléans" to "Bourbon" (note that he refers to himself as Henri de France, but that is not his legal name).
[...]
The comte de Paris claimed that his ancestors had stopped using the surname of Bourbon, but it had remained his true patronym, and he had a right to resume its use. The courts found against him, successively the lower court in Paris, the Appeals Court of Paris (Feb 1, 2001) and finally the Court of Cassation (Sept. 30, 2003, 01-03219, see Legifrance and search by "numéro d'affaire" 01-03219).
AU NOM DU PEUPLE FRANCAIS
AU NOM DU PEUPLE FRANCAIS
LA COUR DE CASSATION, PREMIERE CHAMBRE CIVILE, a rendu l'arrêt suivant :
Sur le moyen unique, pris en ses deux branches :
Attendu que, M. Henri d'X... reproche à l'arrêt confirmatif attaqué (Paris, 1er février 2001) d'avoir rejeté sa requête en rectification d'état civil à fin de rétablir son nom d'origine de Y... et se nommer à l'avenir Henri de Y..., alors, selon le moyen :
[...]
Mais attendu que si la possession loyale et prolongée d'un nom ne fait pas obstacle en principe à ce que celui qui le porte, renonçant à s'en prévaloir, revendique le nom de ses ancêtres, il appartient alors au juge, en considération, notamment, de la durée respective et de l'ancienneté des possessions invoquées, ainsi que des circonstances dans lesquelles elles se sont succédé, d'apprécier s'il y a lieu d'accueillir cette revendication ;
Attendu qu'en l'espèce, par motifs adoptés, la cour d'appel a souverainement estimé que c'était volontairement que le nom d'X... avait été substitué à celui de Y... par le fils cadet de Louis XIII et tous ses descendants qui avaient ainsi abandonné le nom de Y... et que cette volonté de porter le nom d'X... avait été confirmée par le roi Louis-Philippe lors de son accession au trône ; que, par des seuls motifs, elle a légalement justifié sa décision ;
Thanks for the clarification, I forgot the full story.
While looking for more information I came across this article:
https://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/proces2.htm
As count of Clermont prince Henri sued the late Don Alfonso de Borbon y Dampierre to prevent him from using the title Duke of Anjou. The case was rejected as well. Don Alfonso and the count of Clermont debated each other in a television programme:
S.A.R Alphonse de Bourbon VS Henri d'Orléans - vidéo - Contre-révolution, royalisme, royaliste, catholique, Nouvel ordre mondial, monarchie traditionnelle
I hope that chef of the Maison de Bourbon-Orléans will be known again as Duc d'Orléans. ... Prince Jean's uncle Prince Jacques is the current Duc d'Orléans. I hope that after him the title goes back to the Chef de la Maison. Prince Jacques' sons are Charles-Louis, Duc de Chartres and Foulques, Duc d'Aumale. So they are already "provided" with a ducal title.
However the title duc de Chartres is an ancien régime "place-holder" title traditionally associated with the eldest son and heir of the duc d'Orléans until that son succeeded his father. So it would seem that, when Charles-Louis was created duc de Chartres, the intent of the senior Henri Comte de Paris (1908-1999) was for the Orléans ducal title to pass from Jacques to his eldest son, thus returning to how it was done in the days of the monarchy.
He does not want to be Comte de Paris now because we will have 2 Comtesses de Paris.
What's wrong with that? Sometimes a country has had three living queens, such as Britain in 1952-1953. From 1854-1873, there were three living Empresses of Austria / Queens of Hungary.
What's wrong with having two living Comtesses de Paris? Sometimes a country has had three living queens, such as Britain in 1952-1953. From 1854-1873, there were three living Empresses of Austria / Queens of Hungary. There were three living Empresses of Russia in 1825-1826. Three overlapping Queens of France in the 1580's.
Probably it's easier if the relationships between them are better? It doesn't seem that Jean and his father had a good relationship and I believe his relationship with his stepmother is strained as well. Didn't all children side with their mother in the divorce (and even prior to the divorce as their parents had been estranged for some time due to Henri's relationship with Micaela, his later wife)? So, I understand why he is not to keen on having both his wife and his stepmother sharing the same title (albeit in slightly different ways). He might not want to take up the title at all. It's not that all previous heads of the family were known by this title; his great-grandfather stayed 'Duke of Guise'; and it doesn't seem that either his father or grandfather (who both held the title) are great examples to follow.
It is strange that the main title of the House of Orléans and the traditional title to the heir went to a fourth junior son of the then Head, Prince Henri (1908-1999). It is one of the visible results of the utter chaos which defined his disastrous headship of the House.
The same could be done if needed, and Philomena continue to be referred to as Duchess of Vendome or Duchess of France
[Jean] might not want to take up the title at all. ... it doesn't seem that either his father or grandfather (who both held the title) are great examples to follow.
There were more Bourbon branches known without "Bourbon" in the name: the House of Condé, the House of Montpensier, the House of Bragança, the House of Galliera, etc.
Those branches actually had Bourbon in their name, but since the latter three were Spanish or Portuguese, they used compound names.
IMHO people who know about the thre different pretenders to the French throne and where their claim comes from know about the Orléans being a Capeting branch as were the Valois and the main-line Bourbon.
It is after all just a chance name going back to the first of this line's possession and title and is not really a "family name". Just like Schlewsig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is the territorial title of a junior branch of the family which ruled Oldenburg in their main line and not a "family name". Or like the Holstein-Gottorp was the territorial title of the duke (again of a junior branch of the family whose main line ruled Oldenburg) who married Anna Romanova of Russia, their son founded the dynasty of "Romanov-Gottorp". A lot of those ancient European nobles simply don't have a family name but go by the territorial title of the male who founded their branch.
As the Orléans are all from the Royal branch Philippe de Orléans founded, they should go with tradition and be proud of being the House of Orléans. As I said: IMHO.