Death and Funeral of HI&RH Archduke Otto (1912-2011)

[lucien]

Impressive photos:

BBC News - In pictures: Funeral of Otto von Habsburg

and:

BBC News - Habsburg: Funeral held for last Austro-Hungarian heir

 

[Noor Mariam]

Thanks for the links Lucien !!! You are right, the photos are impressive.
...And many, many thanks for all your work and information in this forum... You are really great !!!

 

[An Ard Ri]

What a puzzling and nonsensical comment to make in the context of this forum and of this particular discussion! If you're holding onto the fact that the monarchy was abolished in Austria in 1918, then no one would have been singing the Kaiserhymne in the Cathedral because no one would recognize that Otto was part of the Imperial family. In that case, we wouldn't be offering hypotheses about why some members of royal families sang the hymn whereas others didn't.

Note that we are not debating here the use of titles in different countries - there are certainly other forums that focus on that topic - but we are wondering together and trying to understand why some people sang and others didn't. We all have our different ideas, but the fact that Austria doesn't recognize titles of nobility is neither here nor there. To most everyone in that church - and certainly within the family - she is Archduchess Marie-Astrid of Austria. I doubt that anyone would disagree with that statement. The fact that she didn't sing - whether it be because she was emotional, at prayer, or refraining out of allegiance to Luxembourg - is still interesting, and there is no reason why we shouldn't discuss it and offer our guesses.

In fact, my impression is that you simply don't like my comments and want to be argumentative. If so, it's a free forum, so go ahead....

If you say so

 

[An Ard Ri]

Thanks for the links Lucien !!! You are right, the photos are impressive.
...And many, many thanks for all your work and information in this forum... You are really great !!!

I second that Lucien

 

[Kasumi]

...Prince Jaime of Burbon-Parma was in the second desk and King Mihai I of romania, King Simeon Ii of Bulgaria and Princess Astrid of Belgium in the third one.Prince Jaime was hardly representing his aunt...

Prince Jaime's grandfather was the Empress Zita's elder brother.

 

[Cory]

Do not forget HM King Mihai I of Romania married Empress Zita's nice Princeaa Ana of Bourbon-Parme.

 

[SchwarzerAdler]

What I - as a legitimist - think is highly remarkable is the fact that in Austria, that abolished Monarchy and titles, such a ceremony has taken place.
You just have to think it over, it was in the presence of the Austrian "president" and chancellor that the coffins were covered with the old banners, the coffin of HI&RH was followed by the Imperial Austrian Standard and the Kaiserhymne was song in the Stephansdom. In the City the "republican" Austrian Army paid respect to the late Archduke. The city was crowded with thousands of people.
So I ask You: If a republic really would have the power to abolish titles of families living to traditions over a couple of hundred years and to abolish Monarchy or would even take this measures serious, what have the "president" and the chancellor done there? It is meaningless whether they sung or not, just their simple presence shows that they recognize the fact that there is more to the ideals of monarchy and that these cannot be abolished.
Those families we are talking about in this forum are and will always be noble, will be royal or imperial - no matter what politicians will say or "decide", and this devine right cannot be taken away from them - as we all could see yesterday in Vienna.

 

[claypoint2]

Thank You, Lucien, for all the info. you provide, including the much coveted links.

Because of you I was able to watch the whole beautiful ceremony live early this morning.

I second that! I was also able to watch because of the links that you provided. Thank you, lucien.

 

[claypoint2]

Thanks for the explanation but I am Catholic and I do attend mass every sunday so I know what I am speaking about when I am saying not eveybody is kneeling during consecration or for receiving communion in France. That is why I spoke about "cultural reason".

Thank you, Sancia. I didn't mean to suggest (at all!) that what you said wasn't true, only that there is theological meaning to the different liturgical postures, so they are not merely a matter of cultural practice. Sometimes people understand what these theological meanings are, and sometimes they merely follow what everyone else is doing in church, and it becomes a habit. But, in every case, a bishop or priest (who has studied liturgy in seminary) has made a decision to institute a particular practice in his diocese or parish. Of course sometimes people move from one parish to another after having become accustomed to one practice, so you may see mixed practices in one Mass or service. Anyway... I'm not disagreeing with you, except perhaps on the point that culture doesn't (in my opinion) have that much to do with it; it is fundamentally a question of liturgy and theology.

 

[claypoint2]

What I - as a legitimist - think is highly remarkable is the fact that in Austria, that abolished Monarchy and titles, such a ceremony has taken place.
You just have to think it over, it was in the presence of the Austrian "president" and chancellor that the coffins were covered with the old banners, the coffin of HI&RH was followed by the Imperial Austrian Standard and the Kaiserhymne was song in the Stephansdom. In the City the "republican" Austrian Army paid respect to the late Archduke. The city was crowded with thousands of people.

I agree! It is truly quite remarkable that things happened as they did. Thank you for taking a step back and putting things in context.

 

[Sancia]

Thank you, Sancia. I didn't mean to suggest (at all!) that what you said wasn't true, only that there is theological meaning to the different liturgical postures, so they are not merely a matter of cultural practice. Sometimes people understand what these theological meanings are, and sometimes they merely follow what everyone else seems is doing in church, and it becomes a habit. But, in every case, a bishop or priest (who has studied liturgy in seminary) has made a decision to institute a particular practice in his diocese or parish. Of course sometimes people move from one parish to another after having become accustomed to one practice, so you may see mixed practices in one Mass or service. Anyway... I'm not disagreeing with you, except perhaps on the point that culture doesn't (in my opinion) have that much to do with it; it is fundamentally a question of liturgy and theology.

Just to explain one more point: I spoke about culture because french bishops gave the autorization to keep standing during consecration or communion with a gesture showing our respect for what is happening. They gave authorization too to receive communion while standing. Of course, that doesn't mean that kneeling during the Canon is forbidden. More and more people are kneeling for consecration but it is still rare to kneel while receiving communion. These authorizations are much discussed but they are still in use. That is why I used the word "culture".

 

[Kataryn]

So I ask You: If a republic really would have the power to abolish titles of families living to traditions over a couple of hundred years and to abolish Monarchy or would even take this measures serious, what have the "president" and the chancellor done there? It is meaningless whether they sung or not, just their simple presence shows that they recognize the fact that there is more to the ideals of monarchy and that these cannot be abolished.
Those families we are talking about in this forum are and will always be noble, will be royal or imperial - no matter what politicians will say or "decide", and this devine right cannot be taken away from them - as we all could see yesterday in Vienna.

I highly doubt that they will offer such a funeral in the future to any member of the Habsburgs. Otto has been true to Austria and true to Europe throughout his life and for that service to his nation he was granted this funeral. The official Austria allowed his family to follow family traditions during this state function and thus the "Kaiserhymne" was played and sung. This was explained by the chancellor and the president of Austria before they entered the Stephansdom on Austrian TV. When they celebrated a requiem for the former Lord Mayor of Vienna, Zilk, his family asked for a "Donauwalzer" (Blue Danube Waltz) to be played. The Habsburgs wanted the Kaiserhymne and got it. The official Austria attended to pay their respects to a Great Austrian and a great European who helped Austria to become a part of the EU. It was not a bow to the head of the Habsburg family or the "emperor of Austria".

 

[claypoint2]

Just to explain one more point: I spoke about culture because french bishops gave the autorization to keep standing during consecration or communion with a gesture showing our respect for what is happening. They gave authorization too to receive communion while standing. Of course, that doesn't mean that kneeling during the Canon is forbidden. More and more people are kneeling for consecration but it is still rare to kneel while receiving communion. These authorizations are much discussed but they are still in use. That is why I used the word "culture".

Thank you, Sancia. I take maria-olivia's point that we should stay on the topic of this thread, so I'll send you a private message to clarify.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Way Too short-sighted,the deceased had a broader view on the eucomenical cause and would not have minded a bit.These sort of ultra strict nonsense is not of this world anymore,flexibilty and opennes to other denominations is.So,If Carl XVI did receives Communion,good,got him a taste of us Catholics.We like to share all our goods with all!That is the Christian spirit.

Ecumenism is one thing, abuse of the Sacrament due to arrogance or ignorance is another matter entirely.

I do not presume to believe that a faithful son of the Church as was his late Imperial and Royal Highness would have countenanced such a thing...even in the name of something as commendable as ecumenism.

There are limits.

 

[Dierna23]

I was glad that I had the opportunity, via 3sat, to watch the funeral on TV yesterday. What a historical event it was! I was deeply impressed and I think it was an appropriate good-bye for a remarkable man. May he rest in peace now.

 

[Harold]

Anyone know where I can get an mp3 or CD of a choral version of "Gott Erhalte Gott Beschütze?" iTunes has a choral version of "Gott Erhalte Franz den Kaiser" and numerous orchestral versions, but not "Gott Erhalte Gott Beschutze."

Thanks.

 

[lucien]

What I - as a legitimist - think is highly remarkable is the fact that in Austria, that abolished Monarchy and titles, such a ceremony has taken place.
You just have to think it over, it was in the presence of the Austrian "president" and chancellor that the coffins were covered with the old banners, the coffin of HI&RH was followed by the Imperial Austrian Standard and the Kaiserhymne was song in the Stephansdom. In the City the "republican" Austrian Army paid respect to the late Archduke. The city was crowded with thousands of people.
So I ask You: If a republic really would have the power to abolish titles of families living to traditions over a couple of hundred years and to abolish Monarchy or would even take this measures serious, what have the "president" and the chancellor done there? It is meaningless whether they sung or not, just their simple presence shows that they recognize the fact that there is more to the ideals of monarchy and that these cannot be abolished.
Those families we are talking about in this forum are and will always be noble, will be royal or imperial - no matter what politicians will say or "decide", and this devine right cannot be taken away from them - as we all could see yesterday in Vienna.

I agree 1000% with you.No politician has any say in any way on titles etc etc,whatever they may think themselves.

We have witnessed a re-living of the Empire in an absolutely stunning and astonishing manner.Allthought the Archduke Otto was the last to be granted this ceremony and the last to be interred in the Imperial Crypt,the memory of yesterday will not fade easily,if at all,to all those thousands witnissing it.Some Austrian politicians were taken so aback by it all they only could utter when asked what they thought of the farewell to Otto of Austria:' We have learned more today on who we are as Austrians". A most remarkeble comment I would say.

You forgot to add that the Austrian Foreign Minister was in attendance at the Dom as well as the former Chancellor Schlüssel of Austria.All that while the Austrian top brass insisted on being part of the ceremony,which they did in a splendid manner.The Austrian republic bowed,and bowed deep.And rightfully so!

 

[Fürstin Taxis]

Photos of the heart ceremony in Budapest 17 July 2011

 

[Johann Salvator]

I agree 1000% with you.No politician has any say in any way on titles etc etc,whatever they may think themselves.

Totally agree with both of you. But we might have such a funeral again in the future. Otto pretty much earned those honours by being a relentless fighter for his own believes, let's remember he lived through nazism, communism, rejection coming from 'allies', and indifference at large. He had to work, he became a scholar, a politician, a diplomat, he had to provide for his own family, he studied at times when princes did not study and worked. He raised a large family and he worked tirelessly and passionately. Of course he was also a Habsburg and you can separate that from him, but he didn't sit and wait, he lived life to the fullest and he achieved a lot.

So that might happen again, and someone from the new generations might achieved a lot and might be honoured in life and death.

 

[lucien]

No,that will not happen again Johann Salvator.It really was the last of these ceremonies with full honours.Otto and Regina were the last to be interred,according to the secretary,assistant of the late Archduke Otto & speaker of the House of Habsburg,Mrs.Eva Demmerle a week ago.

Yesterday the Urn with the Heart of the late Archduke was interred at the Benedictine Abbey of Pannonhalma,Hungary,after a Requiem at the Basilicaof St.Stephan,Budapest.The Urn was then taken to Pannonhalma where it was interred after a short simple service.

This evening at 18.00PM,monday july 18th,there will be a Requiem at the Capuchin church,Vienna,in honour of the deceased Archduke Otto,by the Historical Societies that took part in the ceremonies last week,especially saturday.All who wish can attend.

Pannonhalma yesterday:

BBC News - Otto von Habsburg's heart buried in Hungary

 

[Johann Salvator]

That is not what I meant. Thanks for the video, it was beautiful.

 

[Alexandrovich]

Is it the old tradition of the Habsburg that seperate the heart and and body? The Otto's heart was buried in Hungary while his body laid in Austria. I would like to know the reason why?

 

[lucien]

Is it the old tradition of the Habsburg that seperate the heart and and body? The Otto's heart was buried in Hungary while his body laid in Austria. I would like to know the reason why?

Yes,it is a centuries old tradition by the House of Habsburg to separate the heart and the body ( and in the old old days also the intestines..).
The tradition to seperate the one and the other was already started in medieval times by what were to be the founders of the Habsburg Dynasty.

The bodies were almost always interred in the Kapuzinergruft as we witnessed last saturday,but the Hearts all went in the Imperial Heart Crypt in the Augustiner church in Vienna.But Archduke Otto,as a token of his allegiance and sympathy for Hungary,choose to have his heart buried at Pannonhalma.



@ Johan Salvator,no,that was what you meant and what I read,and the Crypt,really,is closed for further funerals as was stated by the Habsburg Family.Then one shouldn't question that,they know best..

 

[vorky]

Is it possible to visit Kapuzinergruft as a tourist? How does entry cost? The same question about church where are buried Hearths of Habsburgs and Pannonhalma/Hungary.

 

[lucien]

Is it possible to visit Kapuzinergruft as a tourist? How does entry cost? The same question about church where are buried Hearths of Habsburgs and Pannonhalma/Hungary.

Yes,you can visit the Imperial Crypt in Vienna,and the heart Crypt at the Augustiner Church nearby.A small fee will give you entrance.

You can also visit the Abbey at Pannonhalma,Hungary,yes.

You don't live that far from Vienna,it will be easy to reach for you.

 

[kmerian]

Pardon me if this has been asked before, but where will Archduke Felix be buried?

 

[Kit]

Of course you can visit both Church and the Crypt. It really is very interesting, I was there on Thursday where Otto and Regina were already stationed at the Church. It really was deeply moving to see all this people paying their last respects to both of them. I am not even sure if you have to pay for the Crypt. But I am sure it doesn't cost much.

@ Johan Salvator,no,that was what you meant and what I read,and the Crypt,really,is closed for further funerals as was stated by the Habsburg Family.Then one shouldn't question that,they know best..

Yep that's right. What's more only one place is left and everbody assumes the widow of AD Carl Ludwig will one day rest there. But that is just speculation at the moment. Emperor Karl will probably stay in Funchal/Madeira cause the population there worships him and the Vatican has in this case the authority to decide if he will be moved to Vienna one day what I highly doubt. Even AD OTTO didn't want to move his father to Vienna.

 

[maria-olivia]

May I ask what should be the future for Archduke Georg in Hungary. He is living there with his family he tried to be a Politician in Hungary , did he succeed ?

 

[Dorka]

May I ask what should be the future for Archduke Georg in Hungary. He is living there with his family he tried to be a Politician in Hungary , did he succeed ?

Nope. He ran as "independent" with a party in the 2008 EU elections and though he was 2nd in the national list, he didn't get to Brussels. The party got out of parliament in 2010 and is rarely heard of.

He has been president of the Hungarian Red Cross nonetheless for a number of years now.

 

[Dorka]

Is it possible to visit Kapuzinergruft as a tourist? How does entry cost? The same question about church where are buried Hearths of Habsburgs and Pannonhalma/Hungary.

Hey, the Abbey is just off motorway M1, which is the direct motorway between Vienna and Budapest, I guess it's basically halfway between Bratislava and Budapest, so not a grand trip for you