Princes Nikolai, Felix, Henrik & Princess Athena, News Part 2: July 2018 - 2022

[HereditaryPrincess]

Interesting. Thank you Muhler for sharing. I wonder how long Nikolai will be able to keep up his modelling job; because I'm sure he'll be suggested more opportunities like this (unless Kongehuset clamps down on them) in the near future, and given that the royal household has now stated that royals do not promote products, I have a feeling that his modelling career might be fairly short-lived.

 

[Muhler]

Interesting. Thank you Muhler for sharing. I wonder how long Nikolai will be able to keep up his modelling job; because I'm sure he'll be suggested more opportunities like this (unless Kongehuset clamps down on them) in the near future, and given that the royal household has now stated that royals do not promote products, I have a feeling that his modelling career might be fairly short-lived.

Yes, the DRF guidelines in this respect are pretty murky IMO!

Because the DRF promote businesses all the time, albeit in connection with their work and in an official capacity.
But they also receive gifts from time to time, with the explicit condition that the presenter present the gift unconditionally and without expecting anything in return. (Except brownie points.)
I translated an article about the vetting process in regards to a gift presented to M&F some years ago.
So I guess there has to be an okay from higher up, whether that is QMII, or Joachim in this case Is anyone's guess IMO.
And since there was no okay, we must assume Nikolai acted on his own - and got a whack on the head!

But the rules are very blurry!
I can understand if no money changes hands or they don't lend their names and faces to a specific product, like Nikolai did.

But on the other hand Nikolai earn money by walking the catwalk, even if he isn't exactly mentioned by name, everyone knows who he is and as such he indirectly lends his name and status to his employer.
And as he is not supposed to be a working royal, he has to earn a living somehow!
It's catch 22.
I really need an aspirin!

- It would be so much better if he ceased being a royal. But that's a discussion we will go into again when I have more time to focus on that.

ADDED: To me this looks like a public chastising of Nikolai, which is pretty unusual step by the DRF!

 

[Iolanthe]

First of all, thank you Tatiana Maria and Muhler for your interesting sucession discussion I have the feeling that you don't really have that differating opinions, you just write from totally different POVs. Muhler sees the practical consequences and what in reality and with a certain probaility could happen - while TM is interested in the pure theoretical and legal aspects (not ignoring the real life aspects, but just not focussing on them at this point). I am with TM here. If I intertpret the laws correctly, I don't think that QM2 can "just" strip anyone off his sucession rights. She can take away titles, but I don't see the direct link to the sucession. At the same time I am pretty certain, that she would find a way to get rid of persons she doesn't want in the line of succession. A few talks, a bit pressure, a few hints here.

But back to our Sixt-Nikolai
I think the following happened (more or less): Nikolai or some friend of him wanted to rent a Sixt-car. The young and new (and thus eager and motivated, but not too experienced) Sixt-employee thought that this was his chance to show off and impress his boss (Sixt is great with advertising. They make well coordinated and expensive campaigns, at least in Germany. If this would have been a big coordinated campaign, it would have looked much different IMO).The employee suggested to Nikolai, that he could get a little discount, if they could take a little picture and publish it - just reporting the truth (that Nikolai rented a Sixt-car). Nikolai, young and naive, didn't see any problem with that. He gets a discount, Sixt a picture reporting the truth, everyone is happy. (I have to say that I, too, think that Nikolai's fews on what is acceptable for a Danish royal might be a bit currupted by his mother (and maybe also a little by Joachim)). To be honest, I don't think that Nikolai thought too much about it at all. It probably didn't seem like a big deal for him. He went there, rented a car, took a picture, and left with a car.
Now that the media and court discovered the press release, I am sure that they spoke to Nikolai and explained the problem to him. I hope that he understands. He is young and can make mistakes. As long as he doesn't make a habit of it, it's no big problem, I think.

What I am wondering in this context: Do you think that his parents talked openly with Nikolai (and his siblings) about what it means to be royal, what is expected of him, what he can, can't and should do? I would certainly hope so, but I get the impression and could imagine that no one ever really sat down with Nikolai and talked to him. Maybe a few indirect hints here and there, but maybe never open and direct talks, discussions and explanations? From far away Nikolai seems a bit lost to me. He knows that something is expected from him, but he can't really figure out what this something is exactly and how it fits with his own wishes and expectations.

 

[Muhler]

Alexandra has issued a statement:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grevinde-alexandra-om-prins-nikolai-reklame-han-blev-misbrugt

Through her private secretary Alexandra says:
"They (Sixt) asked whether they could take a picture with the Prince and explained that they would put it up on the company intranet, so that the employees could see it. That he agreed to and they have then misused that trust afterwards" says the private secretary and emphasize that there in no way was a co-operation between the Prince and Sixt.
»De (Sixt, red.) spurgte, om de måtte tage et billede med prinsen, og forklarede, at de ville lægge det op på firmaets intranet, så medarbejderne kunne se det. Det sagde han ja til, og den tillid har de så misbrugt efterfølgende,« siger privatsekretæren og lægger vægt på, at der på ingen måder var tale om et samarbejde mellem prinsen og Sixt.

BT has contacted the PR office of the court but they declined to comment further.

 

[polyesco]

Kinda sounds like Alexandra is contradicting the DRF and excusing Nikolai (who is an adult). sounds very naive of Nikolai ... I think it would have been better to just keep quiet and move on. Lesson learn...

 

[Somebody]

I am appreciative of your responses, but it was regrettably necessary for me to spend this time writing clarifications in response to your posts because even now it seems some of the points I am making are being misread. I hope the time I have spent on clarification will assist in explaining my views more clearly.

I agree, there is a lot of room for interpretation! But in my view, the monarch did not utilize any interpretations or loopholes to exclude Ingolf and Christian from the line of succession or to preserve Frederik and Joachim's places in the line of succession. Paragraph §5 clearly permits the monarch to give or deny consent; consent was given to Frederik and Joachim and denied to Ingolf and Christian.

This is possibly the core of our disagreement: From my perspective, since 1953, the realities of life/what has happened/how it worked has conformed to the exact text of the 1953 Constitution, and there is no contradiction between the realities of life and the text of the Constitution. From your perspective (unless I have misunderstood), the DRF has constantly circumnavigated or even bypassed the text of the law.

Your previous examples which highlighted the difference between the two prompted me to try to separate them. For example, it appears we agree that it was the Queen's prerogative to strip Ingolf of his princely title. However, in post #106, you stated that if Parliament had objected, the Queen would not have exercised her legal prerogative – and therefore, while it would be theoretically permissible under the Constitution, it would not be politically realistic in that situation.

As said in post #116, my statements only appertain to the legal prerogatives of the monarch (not the Parliament). A debate over whether the Parliament has the prerogative to override the Constitution with an ordinary bill would be another discussion. In any case, I'm quite sure they would take all necessary measures to remove the poor ax-crazy heir.

Probably, yes. But I have never suggested that there was no way to solve the problem of surplus royals or boot out a member from the line of succession. On the contrary, my posts have stated that the monarch can strip royal titles whenever she likes and can strip succession rights at marriage using § 5 of the Act of Succession, and that the Parliament could at minimum amend the Constitution.

Our disagreement is that I do not think the monarch (as opposed to Parliament) can simply "boot out" a person from the line of succession at will without denying consent to their marriage.

I'm not sure what you mean. Given that §5 was used, and §5 is part of the text of the law, what you have written here seems to support my argument that the removals worked in accordance with the law.

Yes, but it was necessary to employ §5 of the Act of Succession to remove them, and he could not have simply removed them anytime he liked, on any basis he liked (or at least that is my understanding).

I am happy that we can agree on one issue.

My response was written before your addition, but I am happy to continue (or not continue) this discussion at a future date if you wish.

Thanks for this interesting discussion (although a mod might want to move it to a more appropriate thread). I fully agree with your point of view. Among others considering the following examples:

1. Queen Margrethe clearly had no interest in princess Elisabeth remaining in line but she never kicked her out as Elisabeth decided not to marry to keep her position. Apparently, Elisabeth had the 'power' to remain in line to the throne by not providing her cousin a way out.
Article 5 however ensures that the number of royals will never be too large because not ginving consent to a marriage will mean that even if said prince or princess has children they won't be royals themselves nor in line to the throne.

2. While we don't know yet what the titles of Isabella's, Vincent's and Josephine's children will be, I am not so sure that all of them will be princes and princesses to Denmark. They might (if the Danish RF and politicians think they should) of not. On the other hand, will they truly kick them out of the line of succession and if so, who (Vincent's children and not Isabella's or will Josephine's children be the only ones to be shortchanged?)? And on what basis?

The most likely scenario therefore seems to be that Joachim's children will not ask nor receive the monarch's permission to marry so none of Joachim's grandchildren will be in line. Same with I, V & J's children/grandchildren: the chikdren won't receive permission so no grandchild in line to the thtone (of course unless Christian doesn't have children and Isabella's are needed to secure the throne).

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Yes, the DRF guidelines in this respect are pretty murky IMO!

Because the DRF promote businesses all the time, albeit in connection with their work and in an official capacity.
But they also receive gifts from time to time, with the explicit condition that the presenter present the gift unconditionally and without expecting anything in return. (Except brownie points.)
I translated an article about the vetting process in regards to a gift presented to M&F some years ago.
So I guess there has to be an okay from higher up, whether that is QMII, or Joachim in this case Is anyone's guess IMO.
And since there was no okay, we must assume Nikolai acted on his own - and got a whack on the head!

But the rules are very blurry!
I can understand if no money changes hands or they don't lend their names and faces to a specific product, like Nikolai did.

But on the other hand Nikolai earn money by walking the catwalk, even if he isn't exactly mentioned by name, everyone knows who he is and as such he indirectly lends his name and status to his employer.
And as he is not supposed to be a working royal, he has to earn a living somehow!
It's catch 22.
I really need an aspirin!

- It would be so much better if he ceased being a royal. But that's a discussion we will go into again when I have more time to focus on that.

ADDED: To me this looks like a public chastising of Nikolai, which is pretty unusual step by the DRF!

Without wanting to give you more focusing time Muhler ?; I agree - Nikolai seems to enjoy modelling, so I think that if he's certain that modelling and advertising are the paths he wants to go into, it would probably be best for him in his situation to give up his royal title so he can be freer in his choices. This might warrant another thread, though is it possible that Nikolai could be created a Count of Rosenborg (I'm not sure how the system works in Denmark entirely) and be able to enjoy a more private life?

 

[Somebody]

Without wanting to give you more focusing time Muhler ?; I agree - Nikolai seems to enjoy modelling, so I think that if he's certain that modelling and advertising are the paths he wants to go into, it would probably be best for him in his situation to give up his royal title so he can be freer in his choices. This might warrant another thread, though is it possible that Nikolai could be created a Count of Rosenborg (I'm not sure how the system works in Denmark entirely) and be able to enjoy a more private life?

Why create him count of Rosenborg if he already is a count of Monpezat? I am sure prince Henrik would have been very unhappy about that thought and I see no reason for Margrethe to add another title given that she made all her children counts and countesses of Monpezat not that long ago (probably already forward thinking about Joachim's children's future).

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Why create him count of Rosenborg if he already is a count of Monpezat? I am sure prince Henrik would have been very unhappy about that thought and I see no reason for Margrethe to add another title given that she made all her children counts and countesses of Monpezat not that long ago. Probably already forward thinking about Joachim's children's future.

Well, as I said, I’m not entirely aware of how the Danish royal titles work. My comment about the Count of Rosenberg was not meant to disrespect the late Prince Henrik in any way at all, I merely thought of it because it was the more common title for ex members of the royal family. But, as you have rightfully pointed out, if Nikolai were to drop a royal title and keep a noble one instead, Count of Monpezat would be the more obvious one to go for.

 

[Somebody]

Well, as I said, I’m not entirely aware of how the Danish royal titles work. My comment about the Count of Rosenberg was not meant to disrespect the late Prince Henrik in any way at all, I merely thought of it because it was the more common title for ex members of the royal family. But, as you have rightfully pointed out, if Nikolai were to drop a royal title and keep a noble one instead, Count of Monpezat would be the more obvious one to go for.

Has Nikolai not had another title the Rosenborg would indeed be the most likely route to go given that that title was traditionally awarded,, although I am not completely sure about the ins and outs of that title. An important difference of course is that those princes to Denmark didn't have a good alternative other than taking on the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg surname of the Danish royal family as descendants in male line. Nikolai has the'advantage' that his grandmother instead of his grandfather was the monarch, resulting in additional options.

 

[Muhler]

Now that I again have more time to focus on this topic, let me start all over again, by laying out the practical and de facto interpretation of the paragraphs and premises for the whole discussion about the power of the Monarch over the DRF.

Firstly: QMII like everybody else in power, has to consider the public and political mood when making a decision.

Secondly: QMII has, per tradition and per status and per custom wide ranging power in regards to her family. With the exception of the heir. - Again with due consideration to the public and political mood.

Thirdly: The DRF is not a normal family. The DRF members for example have immunity from prosecution. If a member commits a crime or is somehow involved in a scandal, it's up to to QMII to decide what sanction, if any, are to be imposed on that member. It is also up to QMII to strip that person of immunity, so that the person has to face a trial at court. - In principle no one else has that power. Not even the Parliament can strip a DRF member of immunity. Nor can the courts.
It is QMII alone who bestows titles. And what she can give, she can take away... That's logic.

Four: For centuries the number of DRF members has been deliberately kept low. There are lots of reasons for that. Today, it's mainly because the public won't accept too many royals. It deflates the status of the DRF.

Five: It's important to keep in mind that a lot of this is "in principle" and "in theory". While QMII does have a lot of power over her family, her primary job is to ensure stability within the family and to avoid rows when at all possible. If need be by for example by inventing titles, like Count of Montpezat. It takes a lot of quiet diplomacy. Because no one, as in no one at all, are interested in a DRF that is fighting among themselves. Not even republicans. It's embarrassing!

Six: Like with almost any Constitutions worldwide, it's important to look at the Danish Constitution as a general guideline, rather than something absolute. Not even The Ten Commandments are absolute!
With lots of room for "interpretation".

Okay, with that in mind let's start by looking at the simplified and cynical meaning with the various paragraphs in the Constitution and the Law of Succession.

The Law of Succession:
§1 - Ensured the number of pretenders are kept down by only allowing descendants of Christian X.

§2 - Makes sure there is always an heir and exactly who that heir is. That cannot be changed. Not even by the Monarch.
- Provided of course that the heir behaves or doesn't go insane or become too physically handicapped. A criminal heir or an heir in deep permanent coma is dynasticly and politically unacceptable. Nor will the public accept such an heir. So if Frederik run someone over while driving his car while drunk, a DUI - he's out! He can quote the Constitution until he is blue in the head, the public simply will not accept him as heir!
Because in the national interests stability is key. So there must not, there cannot, be any doubt as to who is taking over.

§3 - In case there are no children in direct line of the Monarch, the paragraph points out who will be the heir. I.e. look among the siblings of the Monarch.

§4 - And case the current royal line dies out, this is what to do. I.e. look among suitable descendants of Christian X.

§5 - The magic paragraph! Perfect for reducing the number of DRF members. Willingly or not. And since at least 1953 the one used every time that has happened.
If a member of the DRF marries without consent of the Monarch, they forfeit not only their royal status but also their place in the Line of Succession.
Only children born in wedlock are in the Line of Succession.

§6 - If the Monarch abdicates, follow the guidelines laid out in §2-5.

The Constitution.
§1 - This applies to all parts of the realm.

§2 - Denmark is a monarchy. Who is monarch and heir is determined according to the Law Of Succession.

§3 - The legislative power is exercised by the Monarch and the Parliament. -
- The Parliament pass the bills making them law. The laws are valid when the Monarch signs them.
The executive lies with the Monarch.
- Through the government. All state and municipal authority is carried out in the name of the Monarch.
The courts have the judicial power. Period!

§4 - Denmark is a Christian country, with the Evangelical-Lutheran State Church being the official national religion and church.

§5 - The Monarch cannot be Regent in another country.

§6 - The Monarch must belong to the State Church.
- Because the Monarch is head of the State Church. Since the Regent or a Rigsforstander acts on behalf of the Monarch, if need be for decades, it is necessary that this person also belongs to the State Church. It is strictly speaking not required, but...

§7 - The Monarch and Heir is of age when that person turns 18.
- I.e. have full citizens rights and responsibilities.

§8 - The Monarch is required to sign a pledge to obey the Constitution.
If the Heir has already signed that pledge, the Heir can immediately carry out his duties as Monarch.
If the new Monarch has not signed the pledge, a business ministry will run the country until such a pledge has been signed.
- In DK it's custom that the various members sign such a pledge at the Parliament, no matter whether they are in the Line of Succession or not. That included Mary, Marie, Alexandra and PH. However, AFAIK Nikolai has not signed such a pledge. He has also declared that he intends to have no active role within the DRF. - (Please keep that one in mind!)
Also, in order to obey the Constitution, you can hardly be a criminal... That will conflict with several other paragraphs in the Constitution. So there is a little loophole here as well.

§9 - What to do, in case the current DRF lines dies out.
See the Law of Succession §4.

§10 - The apanage for the Monarch and usage of state property. I.e. palaces and royal yacht.

§ 11 - The apanage and terms for other members of the DRF. That is to be decided by the Parliament. You cannot get an apanage if you live outside DK.
- However, if the Monarch requests an apanage or a rise in the apanage it will be passed in the Parliament. All the details will be taken care off before it even becomes a bill. So that's a formality.

§12 - The Monarch reign within the guidelines and restraints laid out by the Constitution.

§13 - The Monarch is immune. His person is sacrosanct.
- The punishment for a crime against QMII is double up.
The paragraph doesn't say all the DRF members have immunity, but they do. It's one of those things that have become customary over time.

§14 - The Monarch appoints and dismiss the government and individual ministers. The Monarch signs laws in order to make them valid.
The Ministers are responsible for the decisions made by the government.
- In theory QMII can veto a law by refusing to sign.

§16 - The Monarch can charge ministers for breaking the law.
- In theory QMII can (in theory) on her own accord charge one or more ministers for breaking the law. This is to ensure that a corrupt government can be brought down. Normally it would be the Parliament who strips a minister of immunity and charge that minister at a special court. The Court of the Realm.

§17 - Upon turning 18, the Heir takes his seat in the State Council. The Monarch chairs the State Council, but when the Monarch is unable to do so, the Heir steps in and chairs the State Council as Regent.

§18 - Except if Denmark or Danish forces are attacked the Monarch cannot make decisions or sign agreements without the consent of the Parliament. In case Denmark is under attack, the Monarch (as commander in chief) can issue order without waiting for a consent.

§21 - The Monarch can on his own accord draft bills for the Parliament to consider. As well as other state administrative decisions.

§23 - In special circumstances where the Parliament cannot convene, the Monarch can issue laws on his own, provided they don't conflict with the Constitution. Once the Parliament is convened again these provisional laws will be either confirmed or rejected.
- In case of an emergency QMII can rule by decree.

§24 - The Monarch can issue pardons. Except those sentenced by the Court of the Realm. I.e. corrupt ministers.

- I have included all this to demonstrate that QMII actually has a surprising amount of power. Both outlined here and indirectly through tradition or custom.

 

[Muhler]

Now, let's look at Nikolai and Elisabeth.

Yes, Elisabeth remained a Princess and in the Line of Succession. But §5 hanged over her head all her life! She only avoided becoming Countess of Rosenborg because she and the man she lived with weren't interested in having children. - Having children out of wedlock would make staying in the Line of Succession pretty meaningless IMO.
QMII didn't come up with another pretext to kick Elisabeth out, but on the other hand Elisabeth didn't get anything for free.
No apanage. No apartment in a palace, except at the end of her life, which no one really could object against.
And she had to work full-time for a living all her adult life.
- So yes, she wasn't booted out of the Line of Succession, but she sure stood on the threshold!

I firmly believe all Joachim's children will eventually leave the Line of Succession.
The wonderful §5 can be used if they wish to marry. "Unless you marry King Midas or his sister there is no way you will get a consent!"
There is no way in this world they will be granted an apanage unless they are pretty active working royals.
With M&F having four children, there really isn't any need for including Joachim's children as working royals. They are surplus material.
No apanage, means they will have to work and have careers on their own and that's unfortunate for an active member of the DRF. It's a catch 22. - If they work they become less desirable as full members of the DRF, if they don't work, they can't make a living.
In that situation I believe most of Joachim's children will find it much more desirable to renounce their royal status, either upon marriage or voluntarily. Being "only" Montpezats they have much more freedom and much fewer restraints to live their lives where they will and as they will.

I simply cannot imagine any of Joachim's children stubbornly hanging on to their royal title. They will be subjected to a massive pressure, not only from within the DRF, but also from the politicians and the public. - They will get no sympathy at all.
No money, no sympathy, ridiculed and criticized by all - how long do you think they will last?
And it doesn't say anything in the Constitution that the Monarch can't strip someone so far down the line of his/her royal status. It's only the immediate heir and the spare who really matters. Few if any at all among the politicians or the public will lift a finger to support say Nikolai if king Frederik decrees that Nikolai is now Count de Montpezat. Remember Frederik can put forward his own bill in the Parliament. - Can you imagine the Parliament voting against that one?
Nikolai will be checkmate even before he has finished the sentence: "But I wanna remain in the Line of Succession!"

So brutally speaking and without looking in a crystal ball, all Joachim's children are out.

The interesting thing is what will happen to M&F's children.
Christian and his life is fixed.
It has been declared that they don't expect other than Christian to receive an apanage in the future, and as such a working role. Yeah right, if you believe that then I got a mermaid for sale!
I believe Isabella is destined to be the spare. She will be a future "Joachim". I.e. another full time working adult royal in support of in particular Christian. And should anything happen to Christian...
Of course there is always the possibility that Isabella does not wish to remain a royal, or she does a Madeleine. Marry and settle abroad and quietly fade out.
In that case Vincent is the next "Joachim."
Having said that, I believe Isabella's children, should she have any, are destined to end up like Joachim's children. They will eventually leave the Line of Succession. Unless Christian does not have children of his own. Which is unlikely considering the fertility treatments at disposal even today!

I can easily imagine one of M&F's children settling in Australia and/or marrying an Australian. because I'm sure they are going to study in Australia when they become adults thus creating a strong affiliation to their mother's country. Also keep in mind that Frederik has fond memories of Australia, both before and after Mary, so M&F's children going there is an obvious thought IMO.
It will be interesting to see what especially Vincent and Josephine's future status will be.

Joachim will IMO remain a full royal for the rest of his life.
There really is no need to strip him of his status. He has after all also done his duty as a royal and it's good to have an experienced adult royal around. Uncles have a role too you know.

To sum up: Only royals with an active role within the DRF are acceptable by the public. Everybody else are expected to be weeded out.

 

[King of the Jungle]

I thought many royals promote or advertise many things.
The ladies advertise Danish fashion. Overseas tours often promote Danish food.
What is the difference in Nikolai advertising products and other royals promoting consumables? I don't really understand.
Is it because he is paid in a more transparent manner?

 

[Muhler]

I thought many royals promote or advertise many things.
The ladies advertise Danish fashion. Overseas tours often promote Danish food.
What is the difference in Nikolai advertising products and other royals promoting consumables? I don't really understand.
Is it because he is paid in a more transparent manner?

I'll skip that one and leave it to someone else, because I honestly can't answer you.
Surprisingly the system works, but it sure is based very much on the personal credibility of the DRF!
Perhaps because the Danes are very much used car dealers.
Certainly few over here in Jutland and the further you get away from the major cities, batters an eyelid. - You paint my garage and I give you half a pig for your freezer.

 

[Muhler]

Let's return to Nikolai and the Sixt company.

I think this article is so interesting that it deserves having the quotes translated.
It's a royal expert commenting on and interpreting the statement from Alexandra.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/ekspert-de...traekke-undskyldning-paa-prins-nikolais-vegne

As you know Alexandra earlier today issued a statement basically saying it wasn't Nikolai's fault and that his trust was taken advantage of.
However, the court will not withdraw their statement which is basically an apology on behalf of Nikolai.
Nor will they comment further.

The quotes in the article are from Sebastian Olden-Jørgensen.

"As Prince you should not give a permission at all for such a photo to be taken, because then you risk it being misused. And that is seemingly exactly what happened here. That's why the DRF will believe that a chastising of Prince Nikolai is still appropriate."
Som prins skal man slet ikke give tilladelse til, at der bliver taget et sådant billede, for så risikerer man at blive misbrugt. Og det er øjensynlig præcis, hvad der skete her. Derfor vil kongehuset mene, at en irettesættelse af prins Nikolai stadig er på sin plads

Q: Why doesn't the DRF issue a corrected statement, now that it is clear that Prince Nikolai was misused?
SOJ: "You have to note that it is not clear from the DRF statement whether the apology is because Prince Nikolai did something wrong or simply something stupid."
Man skal bemærke, at det ikke tydeligt fremgår af kongehusets udtalelse, om undskyldningen skyldes, at prins Nikolai har gjort noget decideret forkert eller blot noget dumt,

"That's why the DRF is reluctant to issue a new statement.
Partly because it would contribute to the commotion (Which really is very limited!) and partly because it could leave the impression that the first statement came out a bit premature and was a bit too rigid - which it probably was."
Derfor er kongehuset tilbageholdende med at komme med en ny meddelelse. Dels ville det bidrage til polemikken og dels kunne det give det indtryk, at den første udtalelse kom lidt for hurtigt og var lige vel firkantet - hvad den nok også var

SOJ does not believe the DRF cleared their statement with that of Alexandra.

"The DRF will for everything avoid ending up in a public discussion with Countess Alexandra via the press. If the DRF feels there is more to discuss in this matter it is taken care of over the phone with the Countess."
Kongehuset vil for alt i verden undgå at ende i en offentlig diskussion med grevinde Alexandra via pressen. Føler kongehuset, der er mere at tale om i den sag, klares det over telefonen med grevinden,«

 

[Mbruno]

Now that I again have more time to focus on this topic, let me start all over again, by laying out the practical and de facto interpretation of the paragraphs and premises for the whole discussion about the power of the Monarch over the DRF.

Firstly: QMII like everybody else in power, has to consider the public and political mood when making a decision.

Secondly: QMII has, per tradition and per status and per custom wide ranging power in regards to her family. With the exception of the heir. - Again with due consideration to the public and political mood.

Thirdly: The DRF is not a normal family. The DRF members for example have immunity from prosecution. If a member commits a crime or is somehow involved in a scandal, it's up to to QMII to decide what sanction, if any, are to be imposed on that member. It is also up to QMII to strip that person of immunity, so that the person has to face a trial at court. - In principle no one else has that power. Not even the Parliament can strip a DRF member of immunity. Nor can the courts.
It is QMII alone who bestows titles. And what she can give, she can take away... That's logic.

Four: For centuries the number of DRF members has been deliberately kept low. There are lots of reasons for that. Today, it's mainly because the public won't accept too many royals. It deflates the status of the DRF.

Five: It's important to keep in mind that a lot of this is "in principle" and "in theory". While QMII does have a lot of power over her family, her primary job is to ensure stability within the family and to avoid rows when at all possible. If need be by for example by inventing titles, like Count of Montpezat. It takes a lot of quiet diplomacy. Because no one, as in no one at all, are interested in a DRF that is fighting among themselves. Not even republicans. It's embarrassing!

Six: Like with almost any Constitutions worldwide, it's important to look at the Danish Constitution as a general guideline, rather than something absolute. Not even The Ten Commandments are absolute!
With lots of room for "interpretation".

Okay, with that in mind let's start by looking at the simplified and cynical meaning with the various paragraphs in the Constitution and the Law of Succession.

The Law of Succession:
§1 - Ensured the number of pretenders are kept down by only allowing descendants of Christian VIII.

§2 - Makes sure there is always an heir and exactly who that heir is. That cannot be changed. Not even by the Monarch.
- Provided of course that the heir behaves or doesn't go insane or become too physically handicapped. A criminal heir or an heir in deep permanent coma is dynasticly and politically unacceptable. Nor will the public accept such an heir. So if Frederik run someone over while driving his car while drunk, a DUI - he's out! He can quote the Constitution until he is blue in the head, the public simply will not accept him as heir!
Because in the national interests stability is key. So there must not, there cannot, be any doubt as to who is taking over.

§3 - In case there are no children in direct line of the Monarch, the paragraph points out who will be the heir. I.e. look among the siblings of the Monarch.

§4 - And case the current royal line dies out, this is what to do. I.e. look among suitable descendants of Christian VIII.

§5 - The magic paragraph! Perfect for reducing the number of DRF members. Willingly or not. And since at least 1953 the one used every time that has happened.
If a member of the DRF marries without consent of the Monarch, they forfeit not only their royal status but also their place in the Line of Succession.
Only children born in wedlock are in the Line of Succession.

§6 - If the Monarch abdicates, follow the guidelines laid out in §2-5.

The Constitution.
§1 - This applies to all parts of the realm.

§2 - Denmark is a monarchy. Who is monarch and heir is determined according to the Law Of Succession.

§3 - The legislative power is exercised by the Monarch and the Parliament. -
- The Parliament pass the bills making them law. The laws are valid when the Monarch signs them.
The executive lies with the Monarch.
- Through the government. All state and municipal authority is carried out in the name of the Monarch.
The courts have the judicial power. Period!

§4 - Denmark is a Christian country, with the Evangelical-Lutheran State Church being the official national religion and church.

§5 - The Monarch cannot be Regent in another country.

§6 - The Monarch must belong to the State Church.
- Because the Monarch is head of the State Church. Since the Regent or a Rigsforstander acts on behalf of the Monarch, if need be for decades, it is necessary that this person also belongs to the State Church. It is strictly speaking not required, but...

§7 - The Monarch and Heir is of age when that person turns 18.
- I.e. have full citizens rights and responsibilities.

§8 - The Monarch is required to sign a pledge to obey the Constitution.
If the Heir has already signed that pledge, the Heir can immediately carry out his duties as Monarch.
If the new Monarch has not signed the pledge, a business ministry will run the country until such a pledge has been signed.
- In DK it's custom that the various members sign such a pledge at the Parliament, no matter whether they are in the Line of Succession or not. That included Mary, Marie, Alexandra and PH. However, AFAIK Nikolai has not signed such a pledge. He has also declared that he intends to have no active role within the DRF. - (Please keep that one in mind!)
Also, in order to obey the Constitution, you can hardly be a criminal... That will conflict with several other paragraphs in the Constitution. So there is a little loophole here as well.

§9 - What to do, in case the current DRF lines dies out.
See the Law of Succession §4.

§10 - The apanage for the Monarch and usage of state property. I.e. palaces and royal yacht.

§ 11 - The apanage and terms for other members of the DRF. That is to be decided by the Parliament. You cannot get an apanage if you live outside DK.
- However, if the Monarch requests an apanage or a rise in the apanage it will be passed in the Parliament. All the details will be taken care off before it even becomes a bill. So that's a formality.

§12 - The Monarch reign within the guidelines and restraints laid out by the Constitution.

§13 - The Monarch is immune. His person is sacrosanct.
- The punishment for a crime against QMII is double up.
The paragraph doesn't say all the DRF members have immunity, but they do. It's one of those things that have become customary over time.

§14 - The Monarch appoints and dismiss the government and individual ministers. The Monarch signs laws in order to make them valid.
The Ministers are responsible for the decisions made by the government.
- In theory QMII can veto a law by refusing to sign.

§16 - The Monarch can charge ministers for breaking the law.
- In theory QMII can (in theory) on her own accord charge one or more ministers for breaking the law. This is to ensure that a corrupt government can be brought down. Normally it would be the Parliament who strips a minister of immunity and charge that minister at a special court. The Court of the Realm.

§17 - Upon turning 18, the Heir takes his seat in the State Council. The Monarch chairs the State Council, but when the Monarch is unable to do so, the Heir steps in and chairs the State Council as Regent.

§18 - Except if Denmark or Danish forces are attacked the Monarch cannot make decisions or sign agreements without the consent of the Parliament. In case Denmark is under attack, the Monarch (as commander in chief) can issue order without waiting for a consent.

§21 - The Monarch can on his own accord draft bills for the Parliament to consider. As well as other state administrative decisions.

§23 - In special circumstances where the Parliament cannot convene, the Monarch can issue laws on his own, provided they don't conflict with the Constitution. Once the Parliament is convened again these provisional laws will be either confirmed or rejected.
- In case of an emergency QMII can rule by decree.

§24 - The Monarch can issue pardons. Except those sentenced by the Court of the Realm. I.e. corrupt ministers.

- I have included all this to demonstrate that QMII actually has a surprising amount of power. Both outlined here and indirectly through tradition or custom.

I am afraid the law of succession you are referring to has been superseded by the Act of Succession Of 1953, as amended in 2009, which is the law of succession currently in force in Denmark and which protects the succession rights not only of the Crown Prince, but actually of all legitimate descendants of Christian X and Queen Alexandrine unless disqualified by law. That is why The Queen cannot unilaterally remove Nikolai from the line of succession, nor can Nikolai in my view unilaterally renounce his place in the line of succession.

 

[Muhler]

I am afraid the law of succession you are referring to has been superseded by the Act of Succession Of 1953, as amended in 2009, which is the law of succession currently in force in Denmark and which protects the succession rights not only of the Crown Prince, but actually of all legitimate descendants of Christian X and Queen Alexandrine unless disqualified by law. That is why The Queen cannot unilaterally remove Nikolai from the line of succession, nor can Nikolai in my view unilaterally renounce his place in the line of succession.

I did use the latest version.

The difference from 1953 lies in §2, upon the death of the Monarch the throne is ascended by the Monarchs son or daughter so that the oldest take precedence over the younger.
In the 1953 Law of Succession a younger son would take precedence over an older sister.
That's what the change in 2009 was all about. I voted for it myself.

 

[Mbruno]

I did use the latest version.

The difference from 1953 lies in §2, upon the death of the Monarch the throne is ascended by the Monarchs son or daughter so that the oldest take precedence over the younger.
In the 1953 Law of Succession a younger son would take precedence over an older sister.
That's what the change in 2009 was all about. I voted for it myself.

I’m sorry . I thought you were referrring to an older version because you mentioned descendants of Christian VII rather than Christian X .

 

[Muhler]

I’m sorry . I thought you were referrring to an older version because you mentioned descendants of Christian VII rather than Christian X .

Oh, that's just a typo.
It's not easy to listen to my wife, telling someone on TV exactly what I think about him, looking at the Constitution and writing at the same time.

 

[Kataryn]

Oh, poor Prince Nicolai. IMHO modern Denmark with it's strong love for equality is not a good place for young royals so far removed from the throne. No wonder he allegedly goes by Nicolai Fredericksborg on IG.

IMHO it would be a good idea (for all monarchies) to introduce gender equality for real and keep "royality" to the children grandchildren of the monarch (or of future monarchs). So that in the Danish example all grandchildren of the queen are Royals and have Royal titles, but that their offspring equally only gets comital titles (as there are a lot of comital Danes still around and of course descendants of the Royal family should be equal to the top layer of their society). Of course the direct line children should still be princes/s. Why eg is it unthinkable that Isabella's and Josephine's children are prince/s when it is clear that Christians (of course!) and Vincent's children will be?

Denmark is a country, where (or so I learned) a lot of married ladies decided to keep their maiden name and give it to their children. Why not in the Royal house? Isabella and Josephine could keep their Royal title even when married and their children could become Count/ess of Monpezat



Either you say: all the grandkids apart from the main line are Count/ess or none.

Here in Germany former noble titles are today just part of the name, so any daughter of a Princess who keeps that name is a "princess" as well. So what? Teaches people not to take this whole nobility talk too serious when aristocracy has been abolished for 100 years now. (If the current laws were like that even before, I could claim a comital name myself just like my cousin could whoo was born with it as she is from the male line but who decided to be just a normal "Mrs. Husband"on marriage).

 

[Mbruno]

Oh, poor Prince Nicolai. IMHO modern Denmark with it's strong love for equality is not a good place for young royals so far removed from the throne. No wonder he allegedly goes by Nicolai Fredericksborg on IG.

He had no problem calling himself "Prince Nikolai of Denmark" when he launched his modeling career. In fact, he was signed on to his modeling agency precisely under that name.



I suppose that is the main criticism of Prince Nikolai nowadays, i.e. that he is using his royal pedigree for personal profit.

 

[Kataryn]

I suppose that is the main criticism of Prince Nikolai nowadays, i.e. that he is using his royal pedigree for personal profit.

That's the way it is today - everyone uses what they have to earn their keep. If Nicolai wasn't looking like a model, he would not get jobs, prince or not.So he gets more mney probably, but that's good for him and the Royal family, for he will not need to be supported by the taxpayers.



If the taxpayers and the government wanted to keep him "pure" they should be willing to pay for his keep. Otherwise he is just a normal citizen with a well-known name. Just like Mads Mikkelsen when he does ads for Carlsberg beer.

 

[Mbruno]

That's the way it is today - everyone uses what they have to earn their keep. If Nicolai wasn't looking like a model, he would not get jobs, prince or not.So he gets more mney probably, but that's good for him and the Royal family, for he will not need to be supported by the taxpayers.



If the taxpayers and the government wanted to keep him "pure" they should be willing to pay for his keep. Otherwise he is just a normal citizen with a well-known name. Just like Mads Mikkelsen when he does ads for Carlsberg beer.

That is actually a point on which I agree with you. Parliaments and governments nowadays increasingly want to limit public funding to the King and the Heir only, but, at the same time, society frowns upon other minor royals having a career or making money like any private citizen is entitled to do. A proper balance of course has to be found, but it can easily become impossible for a minor royal to engage in any business without being accused of taking advantage of his/her status as a member of the Royal Family.

 

[Muhler]

I agree with both of you.

One of the problems for Nikolai is that his modelling career is intertwined with who he is, rather than perhaps his looks and talent as a model. (I won't be the judge of that.)
In other words that he earns his living as model, because he is a Prince, and less because of what he is actually doing.
That can also be a problem is he works in a private company. At some point what whatever company he is employed in may do something that can be seen (especially if you want to!) as controversial. And ought a member of the DRF be associated with such a company?

So if Nikolai wish to remain a Prince I think the safest option for him would be somewhere deep in the state administration or the military.
The military is out it seems, so he can do an Elisabeth and vanish into a state office building somewhere. That should be pretty uncontroversial IMO.

Even if he got himself employed in Red Cross, that could at some point be controversial! Simply because relief organizations are also political.

I don't understand either why Isabella, Josephine and Athena can't become countesses of Montpezat in their own right. Perhaps because PH had a conservative view on that?
But since it's a title created by the Monarch there should be nothing to hinder Frederik in changing that, so that the girls can be countesses too. Or alternatively if he wish to respect the decision of his parents, he could create a new title, say countess of Marselisborg which is bestowed on the girls.

And you are right about women in DK keeping their maiden name. I think my generation is the last where the majority changed their name to that of their husbands.
My wife has my surname, but our children have both our surnames.

 

[Kataryn]

But since it's a title created by the Monarch there should be nothing to hinder Frederik in changing that, so that the girls can be countesses too. Or alternatively if he wish to respect the decision of his parents, he could create a new title, say countess of Marselisborg which is bestowed on the girls.

If we insist on thinking that the Blood Royal is something special (which is the base for monarchies!) we should remeber that it's the women who actually share the blood. I understand why the male line is the important line from back then to today, but nowadays intimes of equality we should get rid of the bad image of maternity and agree at least to equality. So any grandchild of a monarch has a right of recognition even if is mother is "just" a daughter of the monarch. In a country where the people accept nobility at all, there should be a accepted place for the "Blood Royal", no matter what gender the Royal parent is. And then let these people live like "normal" nobility. Which in Denmarl means they do business just like others.

 

[Muhler]

If we insist on thinking that the Blood Royal is something special (which is the base for monarchies!) we should remeber that it's the women who actually share the blood. I understand why the male line is the important line from back then to today, but nowadays intimes of equality we should get rid of the bad image of maternity and agree at least to equality. So any grandchild of a monarch has a right of recognition even if is mother is "just" a daughter of the monarch. In a country where the people accept nobility at all, there should be a accepted place for the "Blood Royal", no matter what gender the Royal parent is. And then let these people live like "normal" nobility. Which in Denmarl means they do business just like others.

I agree.
With most children we are at least pretty sure who the mother is! Daddy can be a little more questionable...

In DK that was fortunately, and about time, changed in 2009.

And I cannot imagine, should king Frederik at some point create a new noble title, that he will say it's only the boys who can have the title.
That would be not only out of touch with the general public (most actually believe as a matter of course that the girls will become countesses of Montpezat.) but also go against the impression I have of Frederik as a person and what he believes in.
Apart from that, I think he would get the ice cold silent treatment from Mary if he created a title only to be inherited by boys.

 

[moby]

That's the way it is today - everyone uses what they have to earn their keep. If Nicolai wasn't looking like a model, he would not get jobs, prince or not.So he gets more mney probably, but that's good for him and the Royal family, for he will not need to be supported by the taxpayers.

I would never understand people accomplishing little when they have unimaginable resources and connections. He is probably a good lad but it would be good to see him putting in hard work on something rather than banking on his good looks and family name. There's nothing wrong with modeling, but really, Prince Nikolai becoming just another nepotism model is just so meh. Makes me think he was indulged growing up.

 

[Kataryn]

That would be not only out of touch with the general public (most actually believe as a matter of course that the girls will become countesses of Montpezat.) but also go against the impression I have of Frederik as a person and what he believes in.
Apart from that, I think he would get the ice cold silent treatment from Mary if he created a title only to be inherited by boys.

I looked it up on the homepage of the DRF because I thought so, too, but they write that the boys are Greve af Monpezat but the girls are not Grevinde, but Komtesse, which means they are only "Daughters of the Count" - of their fathers while the boys got their own title.

Maybe Frederick will change that. I find it old-fashioned and not in sync with the way European societies tick.

 

[Mbruno]

I looked it up on the homepage of the DRF because I thought so, too, but they write that the boys are Greve af Monpezat but the girls are not Grevinde, but Komtesse, which means they are only "Daughters of the Count" - of their fathers while the boys got their own title.

Maybe Frederick will change that. I find it old-fashioned and not in sync with the way European societies tick.

Mr. Muhler can explain that, but as far as I understand, in Danish, a "komtesse" is a countess in her own right, whereas a "grevinde" is the wife of a count ("greve"). The only difference really between Queen Margrethe's grandsons and granddaughters in that respect is that the former can transmit the title to their descendants, whereas the latter cannot. That is also the case in the Belgian and Dutch nobilities, i.e. titles can be inherited only in paternal line because they are tied to the family name and the default rule was that family name was transmitted patrilineally.

 

[Muhler]

Well, Mr. Mbruno to be safe I looked it up.
Komtesse, comtesse does indeed mean countess - in French.

A komtesse is the unmarried daughter of a count, while a grevinde is married to a count (i.e. she has married to the title) or a countess in her own right (i.e. she is the bearer of the title, just like Countess Alexandra.)
Very unfairly the sons of a count are automatically counts, while a daughter has to be made a countess in her own right to inherit the title.

The same thing applies to barons.

Once a komtesse marries she gets the title of her husband if he has one. If not she becomes mrs XX.

The Germans are much more interesting when it comes to titles and I suggest you study the hierarchy there in order to really understand how the system works.
They start with Baron, Freiherr, Pfalzgraf, Markgraf (Marquis), Graf (count), Landgraf, Reichgraf, Herzog (Duke), Grossherzog, Erzherzog, Fürst, Prinz, Kurfürst, König (King), Kaizer (Emperor.)

Here is a site listing the various titles in order of rank, with the various titles in Danish, German, English, French - and other languages as well. As well as an explanation of the differences between the various titles. Albeit in Danish.
That's a good beginning.
https://www.lundskov.dk/kongehus/textfil/info-fyrste.php

For example Benedikte married a Prinz.

In German context I believe PH would have been titled Freiherr.