Sex, names, godparents and Duchy of Victoria's and Daniel's second child

[Ish]

But George I would never have been King either. George I came to the throne through not 1 but 2 females. He got his claim to the British throne by being a great-grandson of James I. But through James' daughter Elizabeth who was the mother of George's mother Sophia. And the Stewarts came to the throne through not 1 but 2 females as well (Mary queen of Scots and her paternal grandmother who was a sister of Henry VIII). After Edward VII died, the throne would never have passed to either sister or his father's sisters and their lines. But then again Henry VII got his claim through his mother, and it was strengthened by his wife's claim.

The question here becomes what was the purpose of the original question? Was it who is the proper heir/monarch under Salic law, or who is the proper head of the current house under Salic law?

Determining the proper monarch under Salic law for Britain and the Netherlands is pretty impossible, and pointless given as neither country ever had Salic law. It's also a challenge with Denmark because of how many people are excluded due to marriage or being foreign monarchs.

Determining who is the proper head of the current house under Salic law is easier for Britain, as it's the Duke of Gloucester (The DoE and his male line descendants belong to the House of Mountbatten-Windsor, itself a cadet branch of the House of Glücksburg). But it's still rather challenging to establish for the Netherlands and Denmark.

 

[Countessmeout]

The question here becomes what was the purpose of the original question? Was it who is the proper heir/monarch under Salic law, or who is the proper head of the current house under Salic law?

Determining the proper monarch under Salic law for Britain and the Netherlands is pretty impossible, and pointless given as neither country ever had Salic law. It's also a challenge with Denmark because of how many people are excluded due to marriage or being foreign monarchs.

Determining who is the proper head of the current house under Salic law is easier for Britain, as it's the Duke of Gloucester (The DoE and his male line descendants belong to the House of Mountbatten-Windsor, itself a cadet branch of the House of Glücksburg). But it's still rather challenging to establish for the Netherlands and Denmark.

The point is if you are going to determine 'the proper monarch' based on a law that never existed,why does it stop with this monarch??? If Elizabeth is not the 'proper' monarch, why was Victoria? Why was George I? Why was James I? As you pointed out, England has never followed Salic law, and the proper monarch is who is on the throne, Elizabeth. And with the new laws that have been made with absolute, if George has a daughter first, then we will one day have our first female heir apparent to the throne.

 

[Ish]

But how would the Duke of Gloucester? He comes to the throne through Victoria? Victoria comes to the throne from George I who inherited it via his grandmother and mother?

It's impossible to determine the "rightful" British monarch without allowing for female lines. England and Scotland both allowed for inheritance through female lines.

- the current monarch is the Queen
- the current house of Windsor takes its claim from being the senior descendants of Queen Victoria
- Queen Victoria takes her claim from being the senior descendant of Sophia of the Palatinate
- Sophia herself took her claim through her mother, Elizabeth of Scotland, who was the daughter of James VI and I
- James VI and I got his throne through his mother, Mary, Queen of Scots
- James' claim to the English throne comes through his great-grandmother, Margaret Tudor

Splitting it up here... In England,
- Henry VII got his claim through his mother, and reinforced it through his marriage
- Edward IV got his claim through not 1 but 2 women - his paternal grandmother, Anne de Mortimer, and her paternal grandmother, Philippa, Countess of Ulster, who was the daughter of the second son of Edward III
- Henry II got his claim through his mother
- Stephen of Blois also got his claim through his mother (and military might)
You would have to literally go back to the Norman Conquest to find an English monarch that doesn't descend through female lines

For Scotland...
- Robert II got his claim through his mother
- Robert I's claim came through Isabella of Huntingdon
- John Balliol's claim came through 2 women (Dervorguilla of Galloway and Margaret of Huntingdon)
- literally every other claimant during Scottish succession crisis came through at least 1 woman (notably Edward I claiming through two female ancestors, and Eric I claiming through marriage)
- the succession crisis itself was caused when Margaret, Maid of Norway (who claimed the throne through her mother) died

 

[Ish]

The point is if you are going to determine 'the proper monarch' based on a law that never existed,why does it stop with this monarch??? If Elizabeth is not the 'proper' monarch, why was Victoria? Why was George I? Why was James I? As you pointed out, England has never followed Salic law, and the proper monarch is who is on the throne, Elizabeth. And with the new laws that have been made with absolute, if George has a daughter first, then we will one day have our first female heir apparent to the throne.

Oh, I agree. This to me is just fun (and completely off topic) speculation.

There is a difference though in the Monarch and the Head of the House - or their can be.

Victoria was of the House of Hanover and the Monarch, but she was never the Head of the House - her uncle, the King of Hanover was. Likewise QEII is of the House of Windsor, but technically the Duke of Gloucester is the Head. The Queen's children are (technically) of a different House - call it Mountbatten-Windsor to differentiate.

Victoria of Sweden is of the House of Bernadotte, as is her brother. One day she will be Queen of Sweden, but technically Carl Philip will be Head of the House. In turn, Estelle and Oscar are technically of a different house - call it Bernadotte-Westling. One day Estelle will be the Monarch, but Oscar will be the Head, with Estelle's children belonging to a different House.

 

[Lee-Z]

And all this because of one remark that if P.Carl-Philip has a son, he will be the next in the "agnatic" Bernadotte line (meaning descending through the male line)
Which indeed a male child will be, there's no question about it

This ofcourse is separate from the line of succession....

 

[SwissRoyal]

Will one of Victoria's godchildren, become godmother to Oscar? For example Amalia of the NL, she's still young but old enough.


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[LadyFinn]

Will one of Victoria's godchildren, become godmother to Oscar? For example Amalia of the NL, she's still young but old enough.


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I would be really surprised if Victoria and Daniel would choose such a young child as a godmother.
Of Victoria's godchildren Giulia and Vivien Sommerlath are about 20-21 years old, Constantine Alexios and Madeleine von Dincklage are 17.

 

[Countessmeout]

Royals tend to choose adult godparents. If they do go the teen route, I would think older teens. Hedvig might be a choice for her Uncle if they decide to go younger, she is 16.

If Victoria wants to go godchild route, she does have some adult/late teen ones.

Vivian and Giulia Sommerlath: They were 14/15 at the wedding putting them in the 19-22 age range (depending on if they had their birthdays yet at the time of the wedding). Might be a choice instead of using one of their dads.

If she wanted a royal godchild to be godparent, her eldest is Constantine Alexios who will be 18 in October.

Madeleine Von Dinklage, one of her Bernadotte cousin godchildren is 17.

The rest of her godchildren are 14 and under.

 

[Biri]

If Amalia was not confirmed yet, she cannot be a godmother.

 

[LadyFinn]

If Amalia was not confirmed yet, she cannot be a godmother.

At the Church of Sweden a person doesn't have to be confirmed to be a godparent. All who are baptized are allowed to be a godparent. The person shall have been baptized in the Swedish Church or any other Christian church or denomination. To be counted as a Christian baptism it has to have been taken place in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and with clean water.
Att vara fadder - Svenska kyrkan - Dopsajten

 

[GömdNatt]

I would be really surprised if Victoria and Daniel would choose such a young child as a godmother.
Of Victoria's godchildren Giulia and Vivien Sommerlath are about 20-21 years old, Constantine Alexios and Madeleine von Dincklage are 17.

Prince William was just 16 when he was the Godfather to Constantinos Alexios, so it's not entirely unheard of. But 12 is rather young.

I think out of her godchildren, a Sommerlath is more likely than the others, for a Godparent.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Prince Amedeo of Belgium was 15 when he became a godfather to Princess Elisabeth (as another example of young royal godparents).

I don't think Victoria would choose a royal godparent from her godchildren as they are too young, as other posters have already mentioned. However, it's possible that she could choose one of her older non-royal godchildren, but I still think she'll choose adult godparents.

I apologise if this has already been asked, but have younger godparents been chosen in the SRF before?

 

[Countessmeout]

No the SRF tends to go the more traditional route, age wise. Estelle's youngest was CP. Leonore and Nicholas' would have been CP or the friends Maddie chose (Chris' sisters and brother in laws are older than him and Gustaf and Patrick were both 40 when chosen so older than CP).

at the time of their baptism

Victoria's:
King Harald was 40
Queen Bea was 39
Princess Desiree was 39
Uncle Ralph was 49

Madeleine's
Andrea of Sax-Coburg and Gotha was 39
Princess Benedikte was 38
Princess Christina was 39
Uncle Walter was 48

CP's
Beril was 67
Leopold of Bavaria was 36
Margrethe was 39
Birgitta was 42

CG (his were older including his great-grandfather, grandfather, step gran)

his aunt and uncle King Frederick and Queen Ingrid (crown couple at the time) who were 47 and 36 at the time
Olav V was 43
Queen Juliana was 37
Gustaf V (great-grandfather) was 88
His paternal grandparents (at the time crown couple of Sweden) Gustaf Adolph who was 64 and Louise (stepgrandmother) was 57
Folke was 51
Maria Bernadotte was 57

 

[Mbruno]

Oscar will be christened five days after Estelle was christened (May 22, 2012), same location too. I guess this ends speculations that there will be a shared christening with Oscar and CP & Sofia's child. Now the question is how grand with this christening be? Will Oscar get the same cradle as Leonore and Nicolas? (I know he won't has the same as Estelle.) And will there be a royal godparent outside the family? (Betting on Madeleine to be the family royal godparent.)

I am hoping for at least one royal godparent outside the family. My personal preference would be Queen Mathilde of the Belgians, who is already a godmother to Princess Alexia of the Netherlands and Princess Isabella of Denmark. More likely though, it will be a fellow Scandinavian royal.

 

[crm2317]

I suspect either Crown Prince Frederik or Crown Princess Mette-Marit will be godparents along with Princess Madeleine and friends of the couple.

 

[Countessmeout]

I would suspect at least 1 perhaps 2 foreign royals. I don't see Fred or MM, as Haakon and Mary were used. I could see Mathilde as one of them. Oscar is the spare to the throne, so I don't see them going the Maddie route and not having any foreign royals.

Bit surprised it is in May, but not surprised no double christening. I didn't really think there was any way it would be.

 

[Stefan]

Perhaps a Prince Hubertus of Saxe-Coburg aand Gotha could be one of the godfathers. Victoria is godmother top his daughter Katharina and the Families seem to be on friendly terms.
Otherwise i think Princess Madeleine, someone from Daniel's Familiy perhaps his brother-in-law or a cousin. Don't think there will be more then 5 godparents like for Princess Estelle although Nicolas and Leonore have more godparents each.

 

[Countessmeout]

Even with Leo/Nico having six, I don't see Oscar having more than Estelle. I could see something like:

Princess Madeleine
Michael Soderstorm (Daniel's BIL) or Hedvig if they went a younger route
Queen Mathilde/Philippe (Vic is to Eleanore)
male friend of Daniel's
either another foreign royal like Prince Hubertus or Pavlos, or cousin of Vic

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I like Stefan's idea of Prince Hubertus, I think it's a lovely idea when godparents of one child choose that child's mother/father to be the godparent to their child.

No the SRF tends to go the more traditional route, age wise. Estelle's youngest was CP. Leonore and Nicholas' would have been CP or the friends Maddie chose (Chris' sisters and brother in laws are older than him and Gustaf and Patrick were both 40 when chosen so older than CP).

Ah okay, thanks for the answer.

 

[Countessmeout]

That is always nice. Problem for Victoria is she has earned the title 'godmother of Europe for a reason'. Including non royal godchildren, she currently has 16 godchildren. Even if Daniel didn't get any picks, she would have to have at 4 kids to honor them all (or more than 5 godparents)

Haakon- she is IA's godmother, he is Estelle's
Mary- she is Christian's, Mary is Estelle's
WA- she is CA's godmother, he is Estelle's
CP- we will see but likely will name her godmother to his baby

Royals who have named Victoria but she hasn't used:
Madeleine: sure bet as any
Mathilde/Philipe: she serves for Eleanore
Pavlos/Marie-Chantal: she serves for Constantine Alexios
Hubertus and Kelly: she serves as godmother to Katharina

Family members she hasn't used:
Simone Sommerlath: she is Vivian's godmother
Thomas and Susanne Sommerlath: godmother to Giulia
Baron and Baroness Dinklage: godmother to Madeleine
Patrick and Camilla Sommerlath- godmother to Leopold
Gustaf and Vicky Magnuson- godmother to Desiree
Kristina-Louise Silverchild and her husband- godmother to Ian de Geer

Friends she hasn't used:
Leonie Person: godmother to her son Ian
Andrea Ingsall: godmother to daughter Diana
Caroline Kreuger and husband Jesper- godmother to Isabella

They will likely find a nice mix. But like Estelle I expect at least one godparent to be Dan's, either his brother in law or a friend. Maybe 2.

 

[LadyFinn]

Family members she hasn't used:
Simone Sommerlath: she is Vivian's godmother
Thomas and Susanne Sommerlath: godmother to Giulia
Baron and Baroness Dinklage: godmother to Madeleine
Patrick and Camilla Sommerlath- godmother to Leopold
Gustaf and Vicky Magnuson- godmother to Desiree
Kristina-Louise Silverchild and her husband- godmother to Ian de Geer

Thomas and Susanne have divorced a long time ago, and Patrick and Camilla Lundén of course too. Thomas came to Victoria's and Daniel's wedding with Bettina Aussems, and Patrick has been with Maline for a long time already, the twins were born in 2008.
Because Giulia and Leopold were bridal children at Victoria's and Daniel's wedding, Susanne and Camilla were invited to the wedding. They weren't at Madeleine's and Carl Philip's weddings.

 

[Countessmeout]

I honestly don't care to follow the Sommerlath cousins to know their current marital status. More likely that Vic could choose her cousin (Thomas/Patrick) over a wife anyways, even if they were still married.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

As for Oscar's godparents, I'm thinking something along the lines of:

– Princess Madeleine of Sweden
– Hedvig Blom
– Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark (at first it was more of a hope of mine than an actual guess but then Mary took a picture of Frederik with Victoria and little Oscar after she had herself had just asked Daniel to take a picture of her with her goddaughter, Estelle, and that, combined with Victoria having said multiple times that Haakon and Frederik are like older brothers to her, makes me think that Frederik isn't a terrible guess)
–*Prince Hubertus of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (because Victoria is godmother to Katharina and because of the family ties to the Saxe-Coburg and Gothas – although I have wondered whether Hubertus could be a godfather candidate to little Alexander... which makes me wonder whether they coordinate godparents with CP and Sofia?)
–*A Sommerlath (presumably Patrick) or a Magnuson (it'd be lovely with Oscar since he and the little Oscar share name but since Victoria is godmother to Gustaf's daughter, they might want to choose him instead)

Jokers: Queen Mathilde of the Belgians (because Victoria is godmother to Eléonore – I also love that if they choose Mathilde she will be godmother to the "spares" in both Denmark and Sweden ), Crown Princess Mette-Marit of Norway (mainly if they choose Frederik to, you know, align the godparent score) and friends (it just struck me that they might just go down a different route this time and choose non-royal friends – boring for a royal watcher but completely understandable).

 

[LadyFinn]

King Philippe has a work event on 27th May, so it seems that he isn't a godparent.
https://www.monarchie.be/nl/agenda/barco

 

[Queen Claude]

I think Madeleine and Frederick are shoo-ins for godparents. I'm thinking Mette-Marit will be named a godparent as well, she's been very chummy with Victoria in the past couple years.

 

[Marty91charmed]

Is there a chance that the godparents will be announced the day before the christening? Madeleine is a given but I wouldn't blindly bet on Frederick. I guess Mette-Marit is really a good possibility; I thought she was going to be a godmother the moment she joined Victoria on an engagement in August. Victoria was pregnant, and evne though she hadn't officially announced the pregnancy, it was very much overt that she was expecting. Then, Mette-Marit and she had a combined event and in my mind Victoria had revealed her pregnancy to her. lol. Myabe I'm seeing things, but that's what the vibe has been since last summer.

 

[principessa]

What are your opinions about Guillaume or Stephanie of Luxemburg or the Spanish royal couple as godparents?

Princess Madeleine is for me definitely godmother, also I guess Queen Mathilde of the Belgians.

 

[sjetajiem]

For me Frederik of Denmark, Mette Marit of Norway and Madeleine of Sweden.

According to Billed Bladet (so not yet official) Frederik and Mary will be present in Stockholm.

 

[ricarda]

I don't think Frederik's presence necessarily means he is going to be a godfather. F+M attended the christening of Mette Marits + Haakons 2nd child without having been chosen as godparents. The Scandinavian royals are close, and this will be a big royal event, so someone from the DRF and NRF is going to be there.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

As much as I think Frederik will be godfather, I agree that their attendance doesn't necessarily mean that he will be godfather. To put things into perspective, Victoria also attended Isabella's christening.

Is there a chance that the godparents will be announced the day before the christening? Madeleine is a given but I wouldn't blindly bet on Frederick. I guess Mette-Marit is really a good possibility; I thought she was going to be a godmother the moment she joined Victoria on an engagement in August. Victoria was pregnant, and evne though she hadn't officially announced the pregnancy, it was very much overt that she was expecting. Then, Mette-Marit and she had a combined event and in my mind Victoria had revealed her pregnancy to her. lol. Myabe I'm seeing things, but that's what the vibe has been since last summer.

If they follow the same pattern as with Estelle, it will be revealed on the day of the christening.

While I agree that MM is as valid a suggestion as Frederik (and I also somehow doubt they would choose one without the other), I think you're reading too much into it. Victoria has said that Haakon and Frederik are like older brothers to her but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't choose Frederik because they've already chosen Mary. Same goes for Haakon and MM, I don't doubt that MM and Victoria are good friends and I could buy into Victoria telling MM about her pregnancy quite early on but I don't necessarily think that makes it a given that she'll be chosen as a godparent because they've already used Haakon.