Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[AristoCat]

I find it intriguing how the Romanovs are so ambitious. They don't whine about being titled or noble, they enjoy it and make no bones about it as evidenced by the infighting between the two factions in regards to who is and isn't the rightful head of the House.

 

[Ceallach]

Could the Russian monarchy return? | Russia Beyond The Headlines

 

[AristoCat]

I think that a restoration might work as long as they are not supported by taxpayers. That is the one thing I think has caused a lot of problems in royal families these days, the royals are enabled to be irresponsible.

 

[Perislov]

The disagreements between the Vladimir line and all the other factions began with the Revolution. First, Kirill's actions greatly offended the other members of the royal family.

When GD Mikhail rejected the immediate throne, it was thought that when the time was right, the people of Russia would be selected, as was the case when the Romanov's first seized the throne 300 years prior. In all likelihood, had a form of monarchy been restored after the execution of Nicholas, Mikhail, and Alexei, then the Nikolaevich would've been installed as the new emperor. He was the favorite to rule. There is little disputing that. After his death with no heir? No one can say, as it is all speculation. We don't even know if the laws of succession would've been reinstalled had the provisional government or the Whites succeeded in overthrowing the Bolsheviks, as the power to make those decisions would've been with Kerensky/Kolchak/Lyov/elected Duma etc...

The current animosity in the family more than likely stems from the fact that in the late 1980s, Vladimir and Nicholas Romanovich were in discussions to end the current feud, with V. proclaiming that all marriages within the family after the Revolution were of equal standing, and that all sides would be considered "Romanov."

While Vlad was in discussions with the Romanov Family Association over this, Maria appealed to the French and Spanish Govt to recognize her and her son's rights to the throne regardless of any agreement. This greatly offended the other surviving members of the extended family and all the discussions were off. There is more to the story, but that's the nicest way of describing it, at the moment.

ADDED: To be sure, I don't really have much opinion about the infighting between the factions. It's interesting, but doesn't concern me.

My problems with Maria started from her wanting to treat the remains of Botkin, Trupp, and the female who was murdered with the family differently. I agreed with Nicholas Romanovich when he stated that he preferred that the remains of the servants be buried near that of the imperial family. Maria, on the other hand, has shown little actual concern over the others who were violently executed, stating that their remains should've remained in Ekaterinburg, as though those who were sentenced to death with the Royal Family because they chose to remain faithful servants did not deserve any of the accolades administered to the Romanov martyrs.

 

[branchg]

Vladimir Krillovich most certainly was not going to relent on the question of morganatic marriages in the family. He made it very clear back in 1969 with his manifesto that Maria would inherit the rights after the death of the remaining male dynasts, all of whom were older than he and married morganatically.

Maria doesn't care if the French or Spanish governments recognize her position or not. As far as she is concerned, she is the Head of the Imperial House and Georgi is the heir. That's the end of that.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's claim to Throne can be seriously challenged?

 

[branchg]

Her claim cannot be challenged in terms of descent from the senior male line of Alexander II, however, it certainly can be challenged from the perspective of the Pauline Laws in terms of whether her mother was royal and equal.

Her father declared his marriage equal and compliant, but his cousins who were dynasts disagreed and stated Leonida was nobility, not royalty, and had no more standing than the other wives of dynasts. They also did not recognize Maria as being heiress, taking the position the succession was a matter for the Russian people to decide and the Headship remained in the male-line.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Her father was the Head of the Imperial House by the time of the marriage?

 

[Grandma828]

No throne so no royals. This discussion is going around in circles.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

No throne so no royals. This discussion is going around in circles.

Well, Monarchists tend to believe that the Throne still exists, but it's unoccupied. And of course they are Royals. A Republic can't take the Royalty away from them.

 

[branchg]

Her father was the Head of the Imperial House by the time of the marriage?

Yes. And that's why most Russian monarchists and the Russian Orthodox Church tend to support Maria as Head of the Imperial House. Her father was the de-jure Emperor when he married and only he could decide whether any marriage was equal or not.

 

[Perislov]

From Nikolai Romanovich, translated from Russian:

I tried to settle and even met with the father of Maria Vladimirovna, in Paris, and suggested to him to develop some form of communication, without losing our beliefs. He then pushed me three strange conditions. First, he said that he agreed to recognize all marriages after the abdication of Nicholas legitimate. Second, if one of the young princes marry a woman noble family, he recognizes his rights. And third, he then prepared to accept us as the Romanovs. I said, what about the first two points, I can not decide for itself, it should be discussed, but what about the last - the last was nonsense, because we were born Romanovs and recognize there is nothing. We agreed to meet again, but then Maria appealed to the French government to recognize the rights of her son, George, and I took it as a step towards ending our negotiations.

 

[AristoCat]

There might not be formal, legally reinforced Throne, but there is still the headship of the Romanov family and frankly, that alone is a prestigious position.

First, he said that he agreed to recognize all marriages after the abdication of Nicholas legitimate. Second, if one of the young princes marry a woman noble family, he recognizes his rights. And third, he then prepared to accept us as the Romanovs.

What an arrogant worm Vladimir was; it makes me rather ill that Vladimir would try to literally deny people their own ancestry out of some spiteful determination to kind of humiliate/browbeat the rest of the family into some gross submission and end up pushing them like that.

As for Maria begging the French government to recognize her son, already pushing for legal recognition, why from the French is beyond me. I hope she doesn't think she can push the Russian government via peer pressure from other foreign governments.

 

[Perislov]

It gets even more entertaining/amusing when one seriously examines "Grand Duke" George's lineage on his father's side of the family. Let's just say there's not much discussion of his royal father's side of the family for good reason, nor what he's been up to the last 31 years, or any of the circumstances surrounding the separation, which took place within months after George was born.

The Russian Orthodox Church would have some eggs on their faces for this one, in more ways than one if miracles happened and my Russian people actually decided to restore the monarchy with the Vladimir line on the throne.

It is so bizarre that Maria hasn't figured this out yet; that she would be a train wreck for Russia. On the other hand, maybe it's not, as explained by this quote:

Dmitri Likhachev, Russia's "most eminent historian" before his death, was "distinctly uncomplimentary about Georgy's behavior during a guided tour of the Hermitage: 'The pudgy little fellow ran right over to the throne and tried it out for size. No, he won't do at all.' "

The Many Deaths of Tsar Nicholas II
By Wendy Slater
p. 56

ADDED: If there was a restoration (God forbid it involving the K branch), what are the odds George's great uncle on his father's side (by adoption).... Prince Zsa Zsa Gabor... show up for the ceremony?

 

[Perislov]

Grand Duke Kyril inherited the headship of the Imperial House, so there was no reason to "claim" anything. I do not think he should have declared himself Emperor, but that was his choice. His manifesto of 1924 gives his reasons. Why was it important to make such a public statement? Well I suppose for the same reason that any number of non-reigning families continue with the practice of an hereditary head of the house long after the loss of the crown. It is their tradition, and also gives a focus for supporters who would like like their monarchy restored. Grand Duke Kyril's son and grand-daughter have simply continued this tradition. That seems quite logical and acceptable to my way of thinking.

I do not see why Grand Duke Kyril should have waited for the Dowager Empress to die before publicly assuming the role of Head of the Imperial House, that is not the way royal succession works. "The King is Dead, Long Live the King" takes priority over the feelings of an elderly lady (after all she had already coped with her own relegation from Empress to Dowager). Grand Duke Kyril waited over six years to publicly take on his inheritance, that is hardly the action of a ruthlessly ambitious man. If his actions alienated some members of the family, well too bad.

Most of the dynastic feud ranges from a whole lot more than that action.

It amazes that the pro-Maria/Kirill supporters have never seriously studied why so many people find them quite repulsive and unfit to rule. They never delve deeper than the surface, satisfying themselves with biographies of Ducky, Kirill and the like that barely gloss over the history which is in plain view.

Most of the other factions were horrified by Vladimir's actions during WWII, and his ties to the 3rd Reich, as well as those of his parents. Of course, their supporters will state that they "didn't know" that Hitler was planning to gas the Jewish people, but they never renounced the Fuhrer, and opposed the allied forces in WWII. For a more clear description, read the following passages:

Meanwhile, at the beginning of World War II on June 26, 1941 Father of our guest of Grand Duke Vladimir K. appealed to the public: "In this grave hour, when Germany and almost all European nations declared a crusade against communism-ism Bolshevism, which enslaved and oppressed people of Russia for twenty-four years old, I appeal to all loyal and faithful children of our Motherland calling: to contribute to the best of opportunities overthrow the Bolshevik regime and the liberation of our Ota-operation from the terrible yoke of communism. "

The Grand Duke was directly involved in the formation of Russian divisions "Russland" which took an active part in the hostilities on the Eastern Front, and in 1945 it was transformed into the Russian National Army, which acquired the status of an ally of Germany. And in the last days of the war, Vladimir and his entourage joined the convoy with PHA and in the night from 2nd to 3rd May 45th, together with its units crossed the border of Liechtenstein. In asylum Grand Duke and his retinue were denied, and they were sent back to Austria.

According Flight of the Romanovs (Perry and Pleshakov, pp.978-979 of the Ebook edition):

Vladimir later insisted that he had no illusions about Hitler, but these words carried no hint of any reservations about the leader of the "crusade" against Bolshevism. This "crusade" would cause twenty-eight million Russians to die.

Many in the Romanov family disagreed sharply with Vladimir's stance. Young Prince Nicholas, grandson of Grand Duke Peter and Grand Duchess Militsa, rembers that for him, "Russia did not exist until June 1941, then Russia became my country; the regime faded into unimportance."

The ties run much deeper than this, unfortunately on both sides of Georgy's family. Kirill and Vladimir supporters try to brush this off, but the ties run deeper than I have stated, as Vladimir publicly stated that the Soviet Union was a Zionist plot "supported by World Jewry (The Flight of the Romanovs p. 1001 ebook edition).

Maria's father and grandfather both had ties to the 3rd Reich, and his grandfather on his father's side, Prince Franz Joseph, was a lieutenant in Hitler's merry band of executioners and gas chamber operators in the name of religious purity.

Even after Grand Duke Vladimir smugly disavowed Hitler, his daughter married the son of a Nazi officer (all in the name of keeping the Romanov imperial line pure of any 'common blood,' I'm sure).

Kirill himself had some rather interesting ties as well, when it comes to the Fuhrer. Her grandparents Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich and and Grand Duchess Victoria Feodorovna supported the Nazi movement in the period of its formation. Here is the translation.

From the book "Hitler without lies and myths" (Moscow, ed . " Book World "2008) journalist, VA Prusakov through translation:

"On the political allegiances of the Cyril, there are very contradictory, but it is known that his wife was not only convinced National Socialist, but also a passionate admirer of Hitler, which, in her own words, from the first meeting saw the "savior." During his trips abroad Victoria raised impressive donations collected in the highest strata of European society, as for the political activity of Cyril, and for the Nazi Party"

The contradictory evidence referred to is whether or not Kirill funneled money through his personal adviser Vasily Biskupsky, who joined the 3rd Reich.

Young George is a descendent not only of Kaiser Wilhelm II, who was partially responsible for the rise of the communist regime, which led to millions of deaths, but he is the grandson of a Nazi who participated in the invasion of Poland.

Yes, many of us have our reasons to have such an extreme allergy to Kirill/Vladimir/Maria and anyone of their lineage. Maybe young Georgy is different, but there are too many close ties to shrug off. No one in America advocates electing the grandson of one of the 9/11 hijackers, who were foot soldiers in Osama bin Laden's quest for religious purity, much like the Nazi Party.

The deeper you keep digging, the more disturbing it becomes, and this isn't the end of the questionable actions of this branch. I am not Jewish, but I have Jewish blood in my family, and the Romanovs need to steer far from any more charges of antisemitism, as we are all aware of their past disdain for the Jewish people.

 

[Warren]

so many people find them quite repulsive

Young George is a descendent not only of Kaiser Wilhelm II, who was partially responsible for the rise of the communist regime, which led to millions of deaths, but he is the grandson of a Nazi who participated in the invasion of Poland.

the 9/11 hijackers...Osama bin Laden...

...their past disdain for the Jewish people.

Whoa, covering all bases eh! I'm surprised you didn't throw in Saddam Hussein.
Did you register here at TRF just to do a hatchet job on MV and Giorgi?
It's as subtle as a sledgehammer.

 

[Perislov]

Whoa, covering all bases eh! I'm surprised you didn't throw in Saddam Hussein.
Did you register here at TRF just to do a hatchet job on MV and Giorgi?
It's as subtle as a sledgehammer.

It's reality that the Romanovs of the 19th century through Nicholas were anti-Semitic. Every bit that I added, which I have been working on with documentable and linked proof, is verifiable.

George's Grandfather was a Nazi soldier.

Many of Jewish descent find the Holocaust every bit as horrific as 9/11. Hundreds of thousands of people were executed by gas chambers for what reason?

Grand Duke Vladimir wrote in a letter to the Supreme Monarchist Council on September 21, 1942 that he sided with the Germans, who were responsible for the deaths of millions of Jewish people as well as Russians, and the Soviet Union was nothing more than a haven for the "World Jewry." Those were his words.

This is easily researched and documented evidence, with no ties to conspiracies anything remotely out of the ordinary. How will Russians respond to the "heir" being the descendent of the Kaiser and a soldier of the Fuhrer?

And no, I didn't register to just lay down the hatchet on Maria. I grew angry as I read the threads by people throwing out support, while bashing Nicholas Romanovich because they argue that they are "bitter."

 

[Artemisia]

Putting aside my personal opinion of Maria Vladimirovna and Georgi, I have to agree that there is absolutely no chance, given their ancestry, either would ever be allowed to ascend to the Russian Throne.

Russians are very nationalistic; even a half-Russian would have a hard time being accepted (I should know, I am one), but a person who has virtually no Russian blood and worse still, is of predominantly German and Georgian origin? It's just not going to happen.

 

[branchg]

Putting aside the fact that virtually every member of the Romanov family who survived the Revolution was vehemently anti-Communist for obvious reasons and initially supported the rise of the Third Reich as a check against Communism, the fact of the matter is the succession of the throne was automatic under the Fundamental Laws. The Vladimirovchi succeeded the Alexandrovich line with the death of the Tsar, his son, and Grand Duke Michael.

Nicholas Romanovich is not the senior male genealogical descendant, Dimitri Ilyinsky is. All of the current descendants are morganatic under the Pauline Laws, but Maria still has the strongest claim.

 

[Perislov]

You're technically right about the "strongest claim," but I didn't argue about that. Whose to say that they would reinstate the Pauline Laws as a matter of fact? My argument is that claims of purest blood would likely have little bearing on any sort of outcome, and it would be wrong to require it.


Not once have I personally attacked Maria Vladimirovna in my posts, nor have I advocated on behalf of Nicholas Romanovich, who doesn't need my defense since he makes no claims to the throne.

I have said, and made my points clear. If people are of the opinion that if Russia were to recognize these claims as legitimate then Maria would just waltz into the imperial palace without causing a meltdown, they are fooling themselves and living in a fantasy. Opponents of the Romanovs and of monarchy in general aren't just going to idly sit by and let Maria Vladimirovna step in as the national savior. They will dig under every hidden corridor looking for skeletons to expose, and there are more than enough out there to feed their appetite.

You have to step back and look at the situation from that of an observer, and not someone who has publicly supported this claimant and look at things objectively.

It is estimated that around 23 to 24 million Russians lost their lives as a consequence of World War II. According to Wikipedia, between 9 and 11 million of those were military deaths and 13-15 million were civilian deaths. Both sides of the current Vladimirovich future claimant, Georgy, fought for the oppressors and opposed the allied forces. How will he or Maria expect the Russian people to handle their claim to be their sovereign?

You are however, somewhat misguided, about "initial" support concerning the 3rd Reich. Nicholas Nikolaevich hated Hitler from the beginning, and none of the Romanovs were active in their support the way Kirill and Ducky were. During the war, even Yusupov turned down Hitler's support, as did Dmitri Pavlovich, who stated "nothing would induce him to fight against fellow Russians," according to Wikipedia.

 

[branchg]

I agree that it is extremely unlikely any of the current Romanovs would ever be called upon to return to the throne. The time for monarchy has passed in Russia and would not solve any problems.

 

[AristoCat]

If Kyril did support Hitler against Germany, well, shows how loyal he is to the country; the Communists were murderers, but Hitler was a class-A monster like Stalin and Communism didn't stop Kyril and Maria from cozying up to the ruling elite hoping for a restoration with them in charge.

Russians are nationalistic and Georgi and Maria are hardly Russian lineage at all. So I don't think that either are going to be accepted as rulers/sovereigns.

Nicholas Nikolaevich hated Hitler from the beginning, and none of the Romanovs were active in their support the way Kirill and Ducky were. During the war, even Yusupov turned down Hitler's support, as did Dmitri Pavlovich, who stated "nothing would induce him to fight against fellow Russians," according t

Grand Duke Vladimir wrote in a letter to the Supreme Monarchist Council on September 21, 1942 that he sided with the Germans, who were responsible for the deaths of millions of Jewish people as well as Russians, and the Soviet Union was nothing more than a haven for the "World Jewry." Those were his words.

Vladimir didn't face facts that Hitler considered Slavs, non-Jewish Russians to be human either and Hitler marked them for extermination as well.

What the Vladimirs wouldn't do for a position in power, eh?

Succession laws or not, too much has happened in an interim to end up realistically having things work as they used to. A violent revolution is something that is radically disruptive and it is something that doesn't respect the laws of succession. Throw in how the Romanovs have had to change to survive and marry and have children/families I would have to state that realistically both sides should stop fighting and end up just going about their business.

It's shameful that the Vladimirovichi ended up supporting the monster Hitler who didn't just go after Jews, but endless other vulnerable types.

 

[Perislov]

The irony is that if the Communist Regime had fallen during the Civil War or in the immediate years after and the throne had been reinstated, Kirill would've been undoubtedly passed over for Nikolasha and the Nikolaivich branch of the family, who was the most popular choice among the emigres as well as those loyalists still inside Russia, and the Orthodox Church. Kirill had some members of the family on his side, but even their support was soft at the time, and they would've jumped ship the moment the Dowager Empress was forced to make a statement in one way or another.

 

[branchg]

Passed over by whom? The succession was automatic with Cyril assuming the Headship of the Imperial House with the death of Nicholas II, his son and his brother. All of the surviving dynasts, with the exception of Grand Duke Nicholas and Grand Duke Peter, publicly declared their support of Cyril and agreed with the table of succession.

The Dowager Empress refused to make a statement of any kind because she hoped beyond hope that somehow her son and his family had survived their terrible fate. She did acknowledge privately to her daughters that Cyril had the right to declare himself Head of the Imperial House.
.

 

[kell]

Over a quarter of Russians would welcome new monarchy ? RT Russian politics

Over a quarter of Russians would welcome new monarchy
Published: March 19, 2013 17:42

The imperial regalia of Russian Tsar Mikhail Romanov
The Hat of Vladimir Monomakh, scepter and orb featuring gold, precious stones and pearls on display at the Moscow Kremlin's Armory

28 percent of Russians say they would not mind a revival of the monarchy in the country, a poll has revealed, noting however that people don’t know anyone who could fill such a position. Meanwhile, four percent of the population both want the Tsar back and do know who could come to the throne, a survey by the All-Russian Public Opinion Research Center (VCIOM) discovered.

Almost a century after the February 1917 revolution put an end to the rule of Romanov dynasty and the Russian Empire, one in ten Russians still believes that being a monarchy would be better for Russia. Notably, in Moscow and St Petersburg such a view is shared by 19 percent of residents.
However, the vast majority of respondents (82 percent) are happy with the current – republican - form of the government, where the head of the country is chosen through elections. Only 7 percent of people could not decide which of the two they would actually prefer.
Two thirds of Russians are confident that autocracy is a closed chapter for Russia. This opinion is particularly common for supporters of the Communist party and the elderly, pollsters found.

When asked who could hypothetically become a new Russian tsar, 70 percent of people stated that the revival of monarchic rule would simply be “impossible and wrong.” At the same, time 13 percent of those questioned suggested that a possible ruler could be a politician or a public activist elected either directly by people through a referendum or – alternatively –by parliament. Only six percent of respondents would want to see the descendants of the Romanov Family on the Russian throne.

2013 marks 400 years after the Romanov dynasty ascended to the Russian throne in 1613, reigning for over three centuries, until the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II in 1917. In July 1918, Nicholas and his family were executed by the Bolsheviks.
.

 

[AristoCat]

I think seeing people WANT to reign instead of moaning about it is a positive thing.

I mean, no one in the Romanov family, in history, has ever showed a lack of interest in reigning, except for Nicholas II who wasn't properly prepared for the role.

 

[Ish]

Over a quarter of Russians would welcome new monarchy.

The way this article is worded and the related percentages are questionable and misleading.

It says that 28% of Russians want to restore the monarchy, but don't know who the monarch should be, 4% want a restoration and know who the monarch should be, 82% want the republic to continue, and 7% don't know. It's kind of implied that this is a poll with 3 or 4 options, but even without the 4% who know who the monarch should be, the numbers don't add up - they hit 117% (121% if you include that other 4%).

Unless they went "do you know how you feel in the debate between republic vs. monarchy in Russia?" To which people presumably answered yes/no. Then, "do you support a restoration of the monarchy?" yes/no (and if they answered yes, we're then asked who the monarch should be), then asked "do you support the continuation of the republic?" yes/no.

In which case a good chunk of the answers were contradictory.

 

[kell]

i know whats werid they even asked

 

[Ish]

I get why you would ask in general - I think a poll like this, if done the right way, can reflect a lot about the state of a country and the way people feel about their government.

If you did a poll with 3-4 questions it could show something about Russia, Russians, and the state of both the republican and monarchist movements in both. The way this article is presented makes it sound as though that's what they did, but the way the numbers add up make it apparent that either they didn't do it that way (and the way they did do it was ridiculous and essentially inconclusive) or that they have some kind of weird system of math in Russia.

I, personally, would love to see the results of proper polls done in countries that had monarchies, abolished within the last 100 years or so, and have attempted and possibly struggled with democracy (or other forms of government) in the intervening years.

The question: Would you like to see a restoration of the monarchy?
The possible answers: Yes (which can be broken into yes, I know who the monarch should be/yes, but I don't know under who, or even yes, I support X/yes, I support Y/and so on), No, I don't know

Then you get a far more accurate representation of what the people think (presuming you don't use wonky math).

 

[AristoCat]

I wonder how the Romanovs would react if someone with an undisputed claim to headship of the family came along and was in fact the rightful head, what then?

I don't think MV would go away quietly.