Vatican City State: Pope Francis accession/Inauguration & Current Events:March 2013-


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Status
Not open for further replies.
I wish the new pope much success and happiness, as I did the old pope(s) as well. :)

Lead by example I think will be his legacy, as well as "quality over quantity", meaning it's not necessarily the number of years that one reigns, but rather more importantly what one does with it. Ageism be damned!

Humility above all...

ps: Moonmaiden23, you impress me once again with your words, you're like a breath of fresh air & light, such a strong woman, one that will never be swayed by the devil himself ~ Ole!
 
I wonder if Francis will ever get to a point where he will decide to auction off some of the Vaticans are treasures in order to help the poor. It would really be sign of leading by example.
 
NGalitzine said:
I wonder if Francis will ever get to a point where he will decide to auction off some of the Vaticans are treasures in order to help the poor. It would really be sign of leading by example.
Click to expand...

I don't think the Pope can auction Vatican treasures as much as Queen Elizabeth can't auction the Crown Jewels.
 
No the pope can't auction off the art etc in the vatican. Even if he could he wouldn't.

Further if you sold everything in the vatican (or any other museum in the world) you still would not solve the problems of the poor.




LaRae
 
BrazilianEmpire said:
I don't think the Pope can auction Vatican treasures as much as Queen Elizabeth can't auction the Crown Jewels.
Click to expand...

Well Francis is an absolute monarch with full executive, legislative and judiciary powers so there is quite a difference between his powers and those of QEII. Francis appoints people to all positions of power within VCS and the Church and can remove them.

As for the argument that even if he sold everything the poor will always be with us, that is always the excuse given for doing nothing. I doubt Jesus ever said anything about the need for his Church to accumulate vast wealth in art or land or anything else in order to spread the word of God.

I am just suggesting that if Francis wants to really lead by example this would be one way that would really grab the worlds attention and potentially make a real difference not only in the lives of those that might be aided but in the lives of those who might follow his example of divesting themselves of great wealth.
 
NGalitzine said:
Well Francis is an absolute monarch with full executive, legislative and judiciary powers so there is quite a difference between his powers and those of QEII. Francis appoints people to all positions of power within VCS and the Church and can remove them.

As for the argument that even if he sold everything the poor will always be with us, that is always the excuse given for doing nothing. I doubt Jesus ever said anything about the need for his Church to accumulate vast wealth in art or land or anything else in order to spread the word of God.

I am just suggesting that if Francis wants to really lead by example this would be one way that would really grab the worlds attention and potentially make a real difference not only in the lives of those that might be aided but in the lives of those who might follow his example of divesting themselves of great wealth.
Click to expand...

Maybe you'll find this article interesting.

Should Pope Francis sell off the Vatican
 
I would say the pope is already leading by example and hardly needs any of us telling him what he needs to do or not do.

Jesus didn't say alot of things that people now run around doing so the Jesus didn't say argument won't get you too far. Certainly all you need to do is look to the O.T. and see the wealth of the Temples, ordered by God (and Jesus is God) to be built in that manner.

Further there is nothing wrong with people giving their money to offer (to God) a beautiful place to worship Him in.

If you really feel that way though...that the Church needs to be selling off everything (and I assume you feel the same about the famous museums around the world) then I figure you have also sold of everything of value that you own in order to help the poor?


LaRae
 
BrazilianEmpire said:
Maybe you'll find this article interesting.

Should Pope Francis sell off the Vatican
Click to expand...

Interesting indeed, although I do not find the argument against the sale by a man who mourns the loss of red shoes, thrones and gold vestments convincing. It's the old "the poor will always be with us so why do anything" story. Rather an unChristian view of the world.
 
Last edited:
NGalitzine said:
Interesting indeed, although I do not find the argument against the sale by a man who mourns the loss of red shoes, thrones and gold vestments less than convincing. It's the old "the poor will always be with us so why do anything" story. Rather an unChristian view of the world.
Click to expand...

I can't see how sold historical treasures can do any good.

People will die in any way, whether by starvation or from old age.

But the historical treasures have to be preserved, they can last for a millenia, while generations of people will be able to appreciate them.
 
Pranter said:
If you really feel that way though...that the Church needs to be selling off everything (and I assume you feel the same about the famous museums around the world) then I figure you have also sold of everything of value that you own in order to help the poor?


LaRae
Click to expand...

The difference of course is that I am not a Head of a church and I have not said that the church should be about the poor nor have I made any show of living a poor and simple life, but as a matter of fact I do live a comparatively simple home life and I thnk I am rather generous with both my time and my cheque book when it comes to charities such as foodbanks and homeless shelters. Not a Raphael or a Michelangelo in sight and I don't even control my own bank, more the pity.:flowers:
Frankly I see nothing morally or spiritually wrong with Francis as the Leader of the Roman Catholic Church and Head of State of the Vatican City State making a really bold gesture such as the sale of some art treasures in order to help the poor. I think it would be a real boost to the Churchs reputation around the globe, one that would be applauded by many people.
 
BrazilianEmpire said:
I can't see how sold historical treasures can do any good.

People will die in any way, whether by starvation or from old age.

But the historical treasures have to be preserved, they can last for a millenia, while generations of people will be able to appreciate them.
Click to expand...

But aren't you using the same old argument "People are going to die anyway so why do anything"?
Just because something is sold does not necessarily mean it will disappear. They will still be appreciated, just in another place whether it is NYC or London, or Beijing or Dubai or Tokyo. They will still exist and be appreciated by people who likely would never have been to Rome.
 
NGalitzine said:
But aren't you using the same old argument "People are going to die anyway so why do anything"?
Just because something is sold does not necessarily mean it will disappear. They will still be appreciated, just in another place whether it is NYC or London, or Beijing or Dubai or Tokyo. They will still exist and be appreciated by people who likely would never have been to Rome.
Click to expand...

And what happens if the treasures are sold to private collections?

The point is that there's almost no chance that the Pope solds the Vatican collection.
 
BrazilianEmpire said:
And what happens if the treasures are sold to private collections?

The point is that there's almost no chance that the Pope solds the Vatican collection.
Click to expand...

I am sure there are many treasures within VCS that have never seen the light of day so if a few peices ended up in a private collection it wouldn't make much of a difference to the public.

I agree that there is almost no chance of it happening, I just think it would be a really bold gesture in support of the Popes views. Sort of putting your money where your mouth is.
 
NGalitzine said:
The difference of course is that I am not a Head of a church and I have not said that the church should be about the poor nor have I made any show of living a poor and simple life, but as a matter of fact I do live a comparatively simple home life and I thnk I am rather generous with both my time and my cheque book when it comes to charities such as foodbanks and homeless shelters. Not a Raphael or a Michelangelo in sight and I don't even control my own bank, more the pity.:flowers:
Frankly I see nothing morally or spiritually wrong with Francis as the Leader of the Roman Catholic Church and Head of State of the Vatican City State making a really bold gesture such as the sale of some art treasures in order to help the poor. I think it would be a real boost to the Churchs reputation around the globe, one that would be applauded by many people.
Click to expand...

Well I am sure glad you see nothing wrong with it.....it would do nothing for the Church's reputation. There will always be those that detract the Church no matter what she does. I daresay those more progressive types who are so gung ho about pope Frances right now will be backtracking soon enough once they realize he is not a champion for their personal causes.


LaRae
 
Based on the article posted by BrazilianEmpire it would seem that it is more the Pre-Vatican II types who are a bit more upset with the actions of Pope Francis.

Support for the poor does seem to be the personal cause of Pope Francis.
 
I still didn't see him selling off all the Church's belongings in Argentina. Not likely he will do anything different now.

I'm sure there are Catholics across the spectrum (progressive Catholics aren't going to be happy with him either).


LaRae
 
Pope Francis won't sell off priceless items of the Vatican. If anything, this man has been showing by several examples that he sees himself as a man of simple needs and that he is part of a whole rather than being above the rest. From what I've seen, this is a man that is trying to put forth the papal role of a leader as one very much in touch and in tune with those around him. This is not a man that would exercise his power as the Head of State of the Vatican to just up and decide he's going to sell off priceless art or turn the Sistine Chapel into a soup kitchen.

Perhaps by example he is showing us that perhaps the world today is too focused on material things that we really don't need and not enough of being thankful of that which we do have.
 
So - you sell treasures and get a bunch of money - then what? There is no point giving to governments to help the poor because ALL governments have a bureaucracy that costs millions and they would waste it. Some governments are corrupt and would waste it even faster (I'm thinking Africa on this one). So we could give it to charities and they would probably spend it more slowly but they would spend it and it wouldn't solve a thing. And in 20 years time, when the money runs out you will get the next starving generation.

If he wants to solve poverty, stop high population rates - ooops can't do that, its against his religion.

He could invest the money in improving food provision but the environmentalists will probably say it will kill the planet. Tricky - planet vs people. The people will need something to stand on.

Water - I think if money was spent on water systems, de-sal plants; irrigation systems then more people could learn to support themselves.

But thats just my opinion.
 
Osipi said:
Perhaps by example he is showing us that perhaps the world today is too focused on material things that we really don't need and not enough of being thankful of that which we do have.
Click to expand...

I agree, but playing Devils Advocate here does the church really need all its material things? Would it be any less the Roman Catholic Church if it had fewer Raphaels and Michaelanglos around? Does it need vast holdings in art and land to be a holy and spiritual institution? Would Catholics be outraged and rebellious if he did decide to sell off some assets as an example to the world?

While it may be unlikely that Francis would sell off art treasures to feed the poor I don't think we can say he would "never" do it. I think the word "never" no longer applies to The Vatican. A couple of months ago if I had suggested that Benedict would abdicate I am sure many posters would have said it would "never" happen and we know how that turned out,
 
Last edited:
NGalitzine said:
I agree, but playing Devils Advocate here does the church really needs all its material things? Would it be any less the Roman Catholic Church if it had fewer Raphaels and Michaelanglos around? Does it need vast holdings in art and land to be a holy and spiritual institution? Would Catholics be outraged and rebellious if he did decide to sell off some assets as an example to the world?
Click to expand...

You'd need a rich man who doesnt want to enter the kingdom of heaven.....

You are right - there is stuff in the vaults the world has never seen. If he doesnt want to sell it, he could exhibit it all over the world and give the money to charitable causes and the Vatican could carry thge costs in order to maximise the "profit"

But if he could bring the church into the 21st century; realise that ancient teachings were based on information different tp what we have today. I cannot help but think a merciful Saviour would not decry birthcontrol if it meant the living would not starve to death.
 
Last edited:
His Holiness will celebrate White Thursday Mass of the Lords Supper this afternoon at a juvenile delinquents prison Casa del Marmo in Rome.

http://www.vatican.va/
 
Last edited:
Pranter said:
I would say the pope is already leading by example and hardly needs any of us telling him what he needs to do or not do.

Jesus didn't say alot of things that people now run around doing so the Jesus didn't say argument won't get you too far. Certainly all you need to do is look to the O.T. and see the wealth of the Temples, ordered by God (and Jesus is God) to be built in that manner.

Further there is nothing wrong with people giving their money to offer (to God) a beautiful place to worship Him in.

If you really feel that way though...that the Church needs to be selling off everything (and I assume you feel the same about the famous museums around the world) then I figure you have also sold of everything of value that you own in order to help the poor?


LaRae
Click to expand...

You are now a very respected person to me. Thank you.
 
I know from personal experience that the Vatican is constantly divesting itself of works of art. My dear Uncle, who had many papal knighthoods bought several pieces over the years. One of them, a 15th century fresco, was left to me with it's papal provenance and certificates from the Vatican. People constantly leave things to the church. When they receive a better 'whatever' than the one currently in the collection, the lesser piece will be sold.
 
KittyAtlanta said:
You are now a very respected person to me. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to add . . . I believe the church as an institution on earth is really comprised of the people, and we really benefit from all it has. I so much enjoy being able to praise and give glory to God in these magnificent and beautiful buildings! there with my brothers and sisters . . . the rich, the middle class and the poor. They are there to serve us all . . . :flowers:
 
Kind of surprised to hear a reference to Kafka in todays homily.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

An Ard Ri
Pope Francis Current Events Part 5
4 5 6
Replies
167
Views
10K
iceflower
iceflower
An Ard Ri
  • Locked
Pope Francis Current Events Part 4
13 14 15
Replies
447
Views
21K
An Ard Ri
An Ard Ri
Zonk
Royal Family of Jordan Current Events 3: Aug 2023 -
2
Replies
51
Views
8K
iceflower
iceflower
Blog Real
Vatican City State: History and Residences
2 3 4
Replies
119
Views
9K
An Ard Ri
An Ard Ri
An Ard Ri
  • Locked
Pope Francis Current Events Part 3
12 13 14
Replies
401
Views
22K
An Ard Ri
An Ard Ri

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom