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  #321  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:20 PM
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I have no clue, but it seems logical that the australian media makes it all about Mary. Still, this is not the Australian media but an international royalty forum and the issue at hand is the book as a whole. To make such an enormous point/discussion about CPss Mary while the author almost doesn't critisize her seems a bit too much for my taste. Though others are free to disagree and focus on Mary as much as they want (as they undoubtably will continue to do).

Since I haven't read the book I wondered if there was anything about Princess Benedikte in it? Except that the book wonders why she has to have an appartment in Amalienborg.
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  #322  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:23 PM
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I find it a bit odd that the main issue of this thread turned out to be CPss Mary. From the extract/reviews I have read it seems the only critisism the author has on her is that she should loosen up. The opinion about the other royals is much more controversial and serious IMO, but somehow people here only get emotionally attached to this subject due to a minor remark about Mary. Personally I found the way that the late Queen Ingrid was portrayed more surprising (coniving against her brother-in-law in favor of her daughter). But also on Margrethe, Frederik, Henrik, Joachim and Alexandra the book seems much more critical (though very little people here seem to mind that).
Marengo you are absolutely right. I have not read the book yet and plan to buy and read it. The discussion started because the English version (from what I gather) is CP Mary's struggles in changing herself, Frederick the monarchy etc. I am really anxious to read this book.
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  #323  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:39 PM
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I've got a copy on order. I feel more comfortable talking about a book if I've read it or at least got it available to refer to when discussing it. As Marengo said, there seems to be a lot more to the book than just comments about Mary's role and whether she's fulfilling it effectively. I just read a biography of Mary which fairly clearly glossed over quite a lot of stuff going on with the royal family, and I found the lack of background material rather frustrating.
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  #324  
Old 07-30-2008, 04:49 PM
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What is it then, I want from CP Mary? To step away from her illusions of what a princess is like and put some content into what she does. Bring the monarchy forward - and her husband too, for that matter - by creating initiatives and stretching her tentacles into areas that are worthwhile, but perhaps not politically correct or "nice."
I think you have a point but I think it's too much too ask yet. Give Mary a break. Firstly, she is only married for four years and her main task has been so far to breed which she has completed successfully. Bringing up the kids remains a further task in the years to come. Secondly, compared to other CP's her role is what I would call very active in terms of showing presence etc. If you are missing content I'd say probably but she is neither superwoman nor Queen. The main stage still belongs and sho uldbelong to QM and only if Frederik becomes King it's up to Mary to step up on the basis of what she has done so far to the more substantial or serious or heavyweight topics - it's much too early to do so now, she's still learning, remember. I have no doubt that she has the potential to become an influential Queen but let's wait until she arrives at that stage. If she did already now what you are asking of her I can imagine all those posts and headlines accusing her of outshining QM or her own husband ... you can't please everybody!
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  #325  
Old 07-30-2008, 07:56 PM
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Why is this is such a sore issue? Why do people get so upset, when I mention these facts? Is it not better that we deal with these problems? Is it not better that Frederik gets some help ? Mary is his nearest and dearest. Surely, she can do something!
I think it is in people's nature to stick up for the underdog when they see him being picked on for no really good reason. I think it is a little small minded of people to make comments such as 'We should deal with these problems', when Fred is who he is. No amount of dealing with his 'problems' is going to change how he handles life. Perhaps the Danes (I say Danes as a whole, but wonder how many actually do agree with the comments) would be better off accepting him and the way he is going to rule as King rather than become someone he isn't.
Mary is accused of being a 'Barbie' style princess in one post and in the next she is being expected to step up to the plate after a very short time and make changes to a Monarchy (and her nearest and dearest) that holds the title of being the oldest in the world . Come on, that's a bit much to ask of anyone. None of us really knows what goes on behind closed doors, Mary married Fred for who he is not for who she could change him into. A very admirable quality I think.
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  #326  
Old 07-31-2008, 04:31 AM
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I think you have a point but I think it's too much too ask yet. Give Mary a break. Firstly, she is only married for four years and her main task has been so far to breed which she has completed successfully. Bringing up the kids remains a further task in the years to come. Secondly, compared to other CP's her role is what I would call very active in terms of showing presence etc. If you are missing content I'd say probably but she is neither superwoman nor Queen. The main stage still belongs and sho uldbelong to QM and only if Frederik becomes King it's up to Mary to step up on the basis of what she has done so far to the more substantial or serious or heavyweight topics - it's much too early to do so now, she's still learning, remember. I have no doubt that she has the potential to become an influential Queen but let's wait until she arrives at that stage. If she did already now what you are asking of her I can imagine all those posts and headlines accusing her of outshining QM or her own husband ... you can't please everybody!
I agrre it is still early days and the Queen is still alive, so it difficult to get a foot in the door But mary can start taking some small steps towards reforming her husband and the monarchy. Let me give an example: In May Freerik turned 40 and had two partiens in less than a week. One at the royal yacht and one at Fredensborg. Basically the same guests attended both events. Was it really necessary to have TWO parties, especially at a time when the Danes and the rest of the world are experiencing financial trouble. Such a show of opulence is very unwise, in MY opinion. Why was that birthday not used as an occasion to do some good? Why did our CP not give something back by turning his big day into a charity event? The royals lead by example and this was a very bad one. Surely Mary understands that, but why doesn't she do something? Why does she not prevent her husband from showing us all such a bad example?
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  #327  
Old 07-31-2008, 04:37 AM
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I think it is in people's nature to stick up for the underdog when they see him being picked on for no really good reason. I think it is a little small minded of people to make comments such as 'We should deal with these problems', when Fred is who he is. No amount of dealing with his 'problems' is going to change how he handles life. Perhaps the Danes (I say Danes as a whole, but wonder how many actually do agree with the comments) would be better off accepting him and the way he is going to rule as King rather than become someone he isn't.
Mary is accused of being a 'Barbie' style princess in one post and in the next she is being expected to step up to the plate after a very short time and make changes to a Monarchy (and her nearest and dearest) that holds the title of being the oldest in the world . Come on, that's a bit much to ask of anyone. None of us really knows what goes on behind closed doors, Mary married Fred for who he is not for who she could change him into. A very admirable quality I think.
When Frederik recently gave an interview to Danish tv2, everybody could see and hear for themselves how nervous and uncomfortable he still is. We adore Frederik because he grew up before our very eyes and we all saw his struggles. But he is a grown up now. 40 years old. He is going to be the head of the most important "firm" in the country. He has to get some help in figuring out how to run that "firm." I know it is a lot to ask a woman, not born and bred as a princess, but there is in MY opinion no one closer to Frederik so sort him out. Let me just add that Amalienborg do now have a few sensible people, who realise that our CP could do with a helping hand and they are trying to make that happen.
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  #328  
Old 07-31-2008, 05:39 AM
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...But mary can start taking some small steps towards reforming her husband and the monarchy. ...
Why should Mary 'reform' her husband? She loves the man he is - he is her husband not a project. Support him, give advice when asked, yes, but I do wonder why you say its her job to 'reform' him???
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  #329  
Old 07-31-2008, 06:02 AM
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We adore Frederik because he grew up before our very eyes and we all saw his struggles.
I'm sure glad that you aren't cheering for my team. As a country who adores Fred because they have watched him grow before their very eyes, you are all very unforgiving. (I am sure that most Danes don't feel the same way, so I use the terms all, country and their loosely.) Surely you all love the man he has become, a caring father and husband. A man who supports his country, although he may have said in the past that he would prefer not to be King, he still knows that he has a duty to Denmark and there is no law that states a shy CP can't take over that role. Showing him more confidence would surely have a more positive effect than keep telling him he isn't going to do the job well. Yay, Villemann, way to go.
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  #330  
Old 07-31-2008, 06:25 AM
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Today, the Danish papers are reporting that Prince Joachim has filled in for Queen Margrethe on more than 30 occasions this past year. In comparison, CP Frederik has only filed in on 7 occasions. Now where was it, the Danes for the first time read that Prince Joachim is a disciplined and industrious member of the DRF and never afraid to pull his weight?
Well, then it might have escaped the "Danish papers" - which do you mean? - that Frederik was Regent on 62 days in 2007. It might also have escaped their attention how - apart from his trip to Mozambique - relatively empty Joachim's calendar was since the announcement of his engagement. 30 occasions where he stepped in for the queen, I wonder which were those occasions?

Get me right, I don't criticize Joachim. I think he has been treated quite unfairly by the media in the past. But I think you are over-praising his workload and at the same time belittling the one of his brother, for reasons whatsoever. I am watching the calendar of the DRF and it is quite clear that - after the Queen - Mary and Frederik are the ones with the most official events nowadays. You make it sound as if Joachim works more than his brother, when he actually does not.

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Why is this is such a sore issue? Why do people get so upset, when I mention these facts?
I can't speak for all but I personally get sore when facts are distorted. IMO in most cases you are distorting facts (see e.g. your comment about the poll in BB in another thread or your claim to be the first to report positively about Joachim - no, others have done that before you).

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Why was that birthday not used as an occasion to do some good? Why did our CP not give something back by turning his big day into a charity event?
I would guess it was because it was a birthday, not a charity event.
And why wasn't the birthday of Willem Alexander turned into a charity event? And why wasn't the birthday of the king of Sweden turned into a charity event? And why wasn't the birthday of the king and queen of Norway turned into a charity event? ...
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  #331  
Old 07-31-2008, 06:47 AM
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Well, then it might have escaped the "Danish papers" - which do you mean? - that Frederik was Regent on 62 days in 2007. It might also have escaped their attention how - apart from his trip to Mozambique - relatively empty Joachim's calendar was since the announcement of his engagement. 30 occasions where he stepped in for the queen, I wonder which were those occasions?

Get me right, I don't criticize Joachim. I think he has been treated quite unfairly by the media in the past. But I think you are over-praising his workload and at the same time belittling the one of his brother, for reasons whatsoever. I am watching the calendar of the DRF and it is quite clear that - after the Queen - Mary and Frederik are the ones with the most official events nowadays. You make it sound as if Joachim works more than his brother, when he actually does not.


I can't speak for all but I personally get sore when facts are distorted. IMO in most cases you are distorting facts (see e.g. your comment about the poll in BB in another thread or your claim to be the first to report positively about Joachim - no, others have done that before you).


I would guess it was because it was a birthday, not a charity event.
And why wasn't the birthday of Willem Alexander turned into a charity event? And why wasn't the birthday of the king of Sweden turned into a charity event? And why wasn't the birthday of the king and queen of Norway turned into a charity event? ...
Ekstra Bladet, Jyllands-Posten, Politiken were the ones I saw the story in. Of course Prince Joachim's royal calendar is not as full as CP Frederik's. He has a full time job running Schackenborg! All his royal duties come on top of his duties at Schackenborg. The birthday party was in MY opinion a perfect opportunity for CP Frederik to show us Danes how he wants to modernize the monarchy. All this royal over-the-top.partying is oldfashioned and not in tune with the times. Those of us, who want to take the monarchy forward, would like to see a Crown Prince and Crown Princesses being far more aware of the fact, that they have to lead by example! Others might prefer to keep on insisting that the emperor is wearing clothes, but I am not one of them!
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  #332  
Old 07-31-2008, 06:51 AM
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Re: Mary Bio that was recently read

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I've got a copy on order. I feel more comfortable talking about a book if I've read it or at least got it available to refer to when discussing it. As Marengo said, there seems to be a lot more to the book than just comments about Mary's role and whether she's fulfilling it effectively. I just read a biography of Mary which fairly clearly glossed over quite a lot of stuff going on with the royal family, and I found the lack of background material rather frustrating.
Which Biography of CPss Mary did you read?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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  #333  
Old 07-31-2008, 06:53 AM
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Why should Mary 'reform' her husband? She loves the man he is - he is her husband not a project. Support him, give advice when asked, yes, but I do wonder why you say its her job to 'reform' him???

I am not saying CP Mary should chain Frederik to the garden fence and keep him there until he has reformed! But surely there are subtle ways in which, she can gently push him in the right direction - Like you do in all partnerships, when you think your other half is not doing the right thing. I am a big fan of the late Queen Ingrid. I researched a lot about her for 1015 Copenhagen K and uncovered lots of stuff about her influence behind the scenes. In MY opinion Mary could learn a thing or two by studying how Queen Ingrid managed to turn her spouse, King Frederik IX, around. Ingrid made a king out of her partyloving husband. I am convinced Mary can do the same with her Frederik.
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  #334  
Old 07-31-2008, 07:01 AM
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I'm sure glad that you aren't cheering for my team. As a country who adores Fred because they have watched him grow before their very eyes, you are all very unforgiving. (I am sure that most Danes don't feel the same way, so I use the terms all, country and their loosely.) Surely you all love the man he has become, a caring father and husband. A man who supports his country, although he may have said in the past that he would prefer not to be King, he still knows that he has a duty to Denmark and there is no law that states a shy CP can't take over that role. Showing him more confidence would surely have a more positive effect than keep telling him he isn't going to do the job well. Yay, Villemann, way to go.
By ignoring the obvious problems, CP Frederiks suffers from, we are not doing the monarchy any favours. Shy is not the word to use about CP Frederik. He is not shy at all, but in MY opinion he is emotionally shipwrecked after the upbringing he had. Of course he supports his country,I am not questioning that at all. He is a fantastic dad, absolutely, but if you by "showing him confidence" mean we shall turn a blind eye to his flaws as a communicator and his ill-adviced endeavours like IOC, then I disagre. I want someone - preferably CP Mary - to help him. I don't understand why this is such a sensitive issue for many, when it is so clear that he needs help.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:09 AM
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I agrre it is still early days and the Queen is still alive, so it difficult to get a foot in the door But mary can start taking some small steps towards reforming her husband and the monarchy.
IMO she already does, and much more than most of her peers. I find the wording "reforming" her husband much too strong. What kind of person do you think is Mary is? Some kind of QE II in young who was given tremendous wisdom about how to be an influential Queen by the fairies? She used to be a normal girl until 5 years ago and firstly all the self confidence or impact etc does not come overnight but only grows with longterm experience and secondly it is not her role at this stage. Although I see potential for Fred to improve let's not forget that Mary is only the consort and the only thing that is important about her in relation to the dynasty is that she has given birth to the future heir to the throne. Fred has been groomed for this role, he is a Gluecksburg and not Mary, and I believe that the danish public will give him a chance once his time will come. After that we will all see what happens - if he should struggle he will be in good company because most of his peers will struggle too. In the distant future I could imagine Fred & Mary going down the path of the Swedish Kings (active & good looking woman with potential married to a relatively non-charismatic monarch) who became very much loved and respected in their country although Silvia married into a different situation (whether easier or more difficult I don't know) as she became Queen straight away and did not have to / couldn't do her "learning" years as CP.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:20 AM
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By ignoring the obvious problems, CP Frederiks suffers from, we are not doing the monarchy any favours. Shy is not the word to use about CP Frederik. He is not shy at all, but in MY opinion he is emotionally shipwrecked after the upbringing he had. Of course he supports his country,I am not questioning that at all. He is a fantastic dad, absolutely, but if you by "showing him confidence" mean we shall turn a blind eye to his flaws as a communicator and his ill-adviced endeavours like IOC, then I disagre. I want someone - preferably CP Mary - to help him. I don't understand why this is such a sensitive issue for many, when it is so clear that he needs help.
How can you catergorically state that Fred is not shy. Do you know how it feels to be shy? I do and have done all my life. I would rather die than walk into a room of strangers and have to make idle conversation. I hate meeting new people, I hate being the centre of attention, I hate ...................... the list is endless. You obviously have no sympathy for people who aren't like you, eg: outgoing, extravert, pick me type people.
Emotionally shipwrecked I'm sure that Fred forgave his parents many years ago for the mistakes that they made as parents and I'm sure like many other Royal Families they did what they had to do at the time and never dreamed that they would be held accountable so many years later.
I have to wonder (with respect) whether it may be you who has emotional problems
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:22 AM
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IMO she already does, and much more than most of her peers. I find the wording "reforming" her husband much too strong. What kind of person do you think is Mary is? Some kind of QE II in young who was given tremendous wisdom about how to be an influential Queen by the fairies? She used to be a normal girl until 5 years ago and firstly all the self confidence or impact etc does not come overnight but only grows with longterm experience and secondly it is not her role at this stage. Although I see potential for Fred to improve let's not forget that Mary is only the consort and the only thing that is important about her in relation to the dynasty is that she has given birth to the future heir to the throne. Fred has been groomed for this role, he is a Gluecksburg and not Mary, and I believe that the danish public will give him a chance once his time will come. After that we will all see what happens - if he should struggle he will be in good company because most of his peers will struggle too. In the distant future I could imagine Fred & Mary going down the path of the Swedish Kings (active & good looking woman with potential married to a relatively non-charismatic monarch) who became very much loved and respected in their country although Silvia married into a different situation (whether easier or more difficult I don't know) as she became Queen straight away and did not have to / couldn't do her "learning" years as CP.
I agree with you that Frederik and most of his royal peers will struggle in the future, because a sthe years pass it will become more and more obvious to everybody what an out-dated, un-democratic institution a monarchy really is. The challenge for everybody is to make it relevant to us and to our children. Silvia was - is - in MY opinion a genius. She really understood how to melt into her position, but then, who taught her: Queen Ingrid, the most fantastic royal the previous century ever saw.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:34 PM
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We're reopening the thread now the book has been out for a couple of weeks.

Note of caution: we're not interested in posts along the lines of "I haven't read it, I'm not going to read it, but it's rubbish and the author is a bad person." This forum is meant for reviews by people who have read the books they're talking about and for people who haven't read them to ask about them. It isn't for general-purpose trashing of books and authors on the basis of second- or third-hand information. Especially not in this case when we have a controversial book whose author is a member of the forum.

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  #339  
Old 08-13-2008, 01:50 PM
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I am a royalist. I want the Danish and all other monarchies to survive, because I believe that a good monarchy brings it's people together and provides a mutual understanding of each other. Now, more than ever, in our globalized world, we need to be reminded of our roots. However, my love of the institution has not made me blind to the flaws of the personalities that nowadays inhabit the Danish Royal House. I believe these flaws to be the faultlines within the monarchy, which is why I chose to portray the royals as the human beings they really are. Is it a fair portrayal ? Well, those of you, who have read my book, might disagree, but I have done my best to balance the good with the bad.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:09 PM
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Why should Mary 'reform' her husband? She loves the man he is - he is her husband not a project. Support him, give advice when asked, yes, but I do wonder why you say its her job to 'reform' him???

I have to agree. The only person who can decide if he is truly ready to take on this responsibility is Fredrick himself. His wife cannot "make" him do this or "reform" him.
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