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  #341  
Old 07-12-2006, 05:16 PM
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Well, that mean that all next monarchs can "change" somehow the order of precedence?
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  #342  
Old 07-13-2006, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnik
Well, that mean that all next monarchs can "change" somehow the order of precedence?
The Queen changed the (private) Royal Order of Precedence last year, so it's nothing new. The Official Order of Precedence for the UK is laid down, but as the Queen is the Fount of Honour she can in effect decree a promotion (or demotion) if she so chooses, eg, as mentioned by zanychick3000, she raised her husband's precedence to that after herself.
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  #343  
Old 10-16-2006, 07:54 AM
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Were Charles to predecease his mother, would Camilla be placed before or after William, Harry and their brides (princesses of blood or marriage or both)?

Or would she move behind the Blood Princesses (who would themselves be behind William and Harry and their brides upon Charles' early death)?

I am asking this right, but underneath I guess I wonder if Camilla will matter if Charles is dead first and HM passes the crown directly to William?

Please answer the former, not the latter. This isn't the thread for it.

Ann

PS I'm not a supporter nor hater of Camilla. The only Royal Family I'm partial to is the Monaco one. I'm curious as to the OoP. Hmm, that almost sounds like a Harry Potter book. I wonder if thats where Jo got the idea from? There are as many questions about that Order as this!
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  #344  
Old 10-16-2006, 08:39 AM
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I don't think anyone is going to give you a answer on that one, since this changing of precdence is not something that has been done before. There is an official precedence which however remains unchanged and in all practice this is only used when it is only female members of the royal family.

I think it would depend on a lot. One being the title that Camilla would get. She can not continue to be The Duchess of Cornwall since that would automatically be William's wife. In the past the Queen has allowed dowager to use the title of Princess (Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester) so she may allow Camilla to be called either The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall or Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall. It would be a tricky situation because I think technically she would be between William wife (as heir to the throne) and Henry wife. This is one of those things I think that would depend on how it plans out. There isn't really a rule we could use.

This 'new rule' is highly confusing for example how does Princess Beatrice fit in, but since it has only been used once or twice it doesn't matter that much.

Here is the official precedence which is different from court precedence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_o...land_and_Wales

A good example that may help answer this question is does anyone know how the Dowager Duchess of Gloucester (Princess Alice) and the Dowager Duchcess of Kent placed ?
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  #345  
Old 10-21-2006, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth
That might be interesting. If Harry marries a princess and William doesn't, goodness knows what the precedence will look like.
During Victoria's time. The Prince of Wales married Princess Alexandra of Denmark, who was a HRH. Whilst the Duke of Edinburgh, his younger brother married a Russian Grand Duchess, who was a HIH. However, Alexandra was granted precedence over her, and apparently it didn't make the father (Tsar Alexander) of the Duchess of Edinburgh very happy.
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  #346  
Old 10-21-2006, 10:36 AM
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That's what I found on wikipedia - not the best source I know. (Sorry I don't know is it was posted or not.) Is it correct or not?

"The Sovereign, whether a King or Queen, is first in the order of precedence. If the Sovereign is male, then his wife, the Queen or Queen Consort, is first in the order of precedence for women. The reverse, however, is not always true. There is no solid law of precedence for a Prince Consort, so he is usually specially granted precedence above all other males by letters patent.
The order of precedence for males royal is:
  1. The King
  2. The Sovereign's sons
  3. The Sovereign's sons' sons
  4. The Sovereign's brothers
  5. The Sovereign's father's brothers
  6. The Sovereign's brothers' sons
  7. The Sovereign's father's brothers' sons
The order of precedence for female members of the Royal Family is:
  1. The Queen
  2. Queens Dowager (most recent first)
  3. The Sovereign's daughters-in-law
  4. The Sovereign's daughters
  5. The Sovereign's sons' daughters
  6. The Sovereign's sisters-in-law
  7. The Sovereign's sisters
  8. The Sovereign's father's sisters-in-law
  9. The Sovereign's father's sisters
  10. The Sovereign's brothers' daughters-in-law
  11. The Sovereign's brothers' daughters
  12. The Sovereign's father's brothers' daughters-in-law
  13. The Sovereign's father's brothers' daughters
The Queen recently changed the order of precedence that put the Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence, next to herself, the Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy. [1] The Queen has stated that this was done as the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy were born Princesses, and to reinforce Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall as a royal duchess and not a princess.
The Court Circular also lists Prince William of Wales above his uncles, The Duke of York and The Earl of Wessex, suggesting he takes precedence over them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._of_precedence
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  #347  
Old 10-21-2006, 10:37 AM
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And Precedences on
http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/...s/page62-4.asp

Ladies in England and Wales http://www.burkes-peerage.net/sites/.../page62-4c.asp

Scotland http://www.burkes-peerage.net/Sites/...es/page31a.asp
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  #348  
Old 10-21-2006, 01:40 PM
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Camilla of Cornwall in the precedence

I think the Duchess of Cornwall does not give a damn' about these theoretical precedence lists. There are two reasons for that:

- in practice she always directly comes after The Queen
- she knows she will be the highest ranked lady in a foreseeable future and must have thought (about the recent changes in the precedence list) 'ach ja, if they are happy with a mare's nest.... let them be happy'

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  #349  
Old 10-21-2006, 04:24 PM
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The court order of precedence mattered a great deal during the reigns of Edward VII and George V because protocol was very strict and formalities were always observed among members of the royal family.

In today's world it matters very little and on official occasions, Camilla comes right after The Queen, which is what really counts.
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  #350  
Old 11-23-2006, 02:44 AM
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With precedence, how are peers within a certain section (as in all the non-royal Dukes), ranked among each other? Is it by age? Amount of time they've held the title?
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  #351  
Old 11-23-2006, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetHomeNC
With precedence, how are peers within a certain section (as in all the non-royal Dukes), ranked among each other? Is it by age? Amount of time they've held the title?
Precedence flows from date of creation (i.e. the older the title, the more senior the peer).
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  #352  
Old 11-24-2006, 01:07 AM
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It's just really confusing me because I everytime I think I've got the order down, TRF switches it up again. I strongly dislike Camilla, and I've spoken about it quite enough, but if she's the wife of the future King give her the rightful order she should be in. It's nerve-wracking. LOL.
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  #353  
Old 12-12-2006, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tiaraprin
You are correct Elspeth, they are equally at fault. Charles' titles cannot be stripped from him, he was born a royal. There are many princes and kings past and present who are morally questionable and not had their titles taken away.

As I have said earlier, if Charles had married elsewhere to a woman he met after his separation, I would have no problem with it whatsoever provided the woman was a good person. She could even be a divorcee and a good person.
I am not anti-divorce. Besides the basic incompatibility of Charles and Diana, Camilla was a large factor in the marriage failing.

I will never condone or forgive what Charles and Camilla have done and they really do not seem to care what they have done. One small prayer that everyone recited at the wedding blessing does not absolve them from their wrongdoings. Perhaps if I saw some true lamentation for what they did I might soften, but that isn't coming any time soon.
None of us has the slightest idea as to the level of repentence felt or expressed by the Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall for the part their relationship played in the breakdown of both their first marriages. I hardly think they are likely to express such feelings to Tiaraprin or to anyone else who doesn't personally know them! But, to nitpick, if they have sincerely confessed before God and His Church (that "small prayer" at their marriage blessing!) then yes, they are absolved, whether Tiaraprin likes it or not.

It seems to be generally accepted that Charles and Diana were fundamentally mismatched and, with hindsight, should never have married. Granted, Camilla did not help the marriage to succeed, but Diana was not perfect either. When can we all stop pontificating about who was to blame for the ills of this marriage, and accept that the only people who really know are/were the people involved? All our opinions are just that, opinions. To presume otherwise is just ridiculous!
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  #354  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:10 PM
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Royal ladies Precedence

I was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me - i remember reading alot of media articels after Camilla and Charles got married saying that the Queen had placed the new Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence for ladies, after herself, princess ann and princess alexandra, whom are all "blood royals" as oppsoed to "married into royals". Yet Camilla always seems to outrank Ann etc at evets, such as the French State Vist when she walked in procession after Prince Charles and before Princess Anne. So where does she rank? Or does she rank at different levels at different times? Thank you in advance. lol.
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  #355  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:28 PM
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Yes, we had a lot of discussion about this, and some of us almost came to blows over the issue. It seems that the Queen can determine the order of precedence and there are at least 2 orders of precedence. This topic goes right over my head, but branchg seems to be very interested in this topic and is probably the authority here on the issue. If you really want an explanation, you might send branchg a message.
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  #356  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:33 PM
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Ok i'm going to try and answer my own question lol, Is it that when Camilla is with Charles she ranks higher because a lady takes her husbands status? And so if Camilla, the Queen and PRincess Ann attended an event Camilla would be last in precedence?
There must be some system to it, i cant imagine the Queen deciding on a day by day basis the rules, though that would be fun for her: "Today i think Sophie Wessex can go second, and Princess Michael can go last." lol (Thats meant to be the Queen btw)
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  #357  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:40 PM
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No, you're right, it's a fixed system decided by the Queen, who caused the furor when it was announced.

I think there's a little more to it than you stated, but the topic kinda bores me. (The furor was over whether it was a departure from precedent and whether it was a slap in the face to Camilla. I'm not a huge "Camillaist" but I think she ought to be accorded the dignity due to the wife of the Prince of Wales, no matter what they call her. There's never been a merit-based test on royals, so why impose one on Camilla?)

But like I said, branchg is enthralled with this topic and probably knows the answer.

Anyway, as far as the Queen goes, I'm sure she'd always put Sophie way ahead of Princess Michael!! (Princess Michael has got to be close to the end of the official Royal Family, I mean even the reticent Gloucesters rank above her.)
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  #358  
Old 04-24-2008, 03:05 PM
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Somehow I don't think it was against Camilla though her appearance on the scene as the new wife of the Prince of Wales was a reason to make changes. Before the marriage, from 1996 - divorce of Charles after Andrew was already divorced to 1999 - Edward's marriage Anne actually ranked second after the queen. I have no information if Sophie outranked Anne after her marriage. But if not, Sophie quickly showed that she was much less a Royal in her behaviour than reliable Anne (The "sheik"-media scandal). As had Diana and Sarah shown that they simply were not bred to be princesses. So at least at that time HM started thinking about the order of precedence which is one of the few possibilities left for her to show in public how she feels about certain things, I believe.

So when Charles married "scandalous" Camilla it was the time to act on it. Because then the public (represented by the media) would accept it. And I think it is only fair as Anne and Alexandra really are princesses of the Blood Royal and it's been an unfairness for centuries thast princesses didn't count that much as their brothers including their wifes.

Oh, and I don't think Camilla minds. I don't think she has any problems with her status. All she does at the moment she does because she loves Charles and because she accepts his position and "takes his cross".

So I don't think there is any need to work up for Camilla other than supporting her right to be queen as wife of the king.
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  #359  
Old 04-24-2008, 04:37 PM
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Precedence for members of the royal family is generally based on proximity to the throne, both in blood and place in the succession, whether in your own right or through marriage.

On state occasions, where official precedence is followed and automatic in law, Camilla ranks directly after HM as the wife of the heir to the throne. She is the female closest to being Queen through her marriage, so she ranks after a Queen or Queen Dowager.

For court precedence, The Sovereign can determine place and status, but in reality it matters little today. Camilla is a princess by marriage who chose to use her ducal style as The Duchess of Cornwall, rather than her senior title as Princess of Wales, so The Queen chose to recognize that by placing her after two princesses of the blood.

But unless the royal family was following court protocol (bowing and curtseying to each other based on rank), it is only symbolic. And most of the time, Camilla is photographed at family occasions coming right after The Queen, especially when Prince Charles is present.
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  #360  
Old 02-09-2009, 05:11 PM
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I have a question about precedence (it's not directly related to titles, but I wasn't sure about opening a new thread). If His Serene Highness The Prince of Monaco and His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales were to meet, who would take precedence? The Prince of Monaco, as head of a tiny principality but actual monarch, or The Prince of Wales, heir apparent to sixteen kingdoms? Also note that The Prince of Wales is Royal Highness, while The Prince of Monaco is merely Serene Highness.

I'm aslo fascinated by the fact that non-royal persons such as Mr. and Mrs. Peter Philips take precedence over royals such as The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester. Mrs. Autumn Philips, as wife of the Sovereign's grandson, even outranks the Sovereign's own granddaughters, such as Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York!
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