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  #241  
Old 08-21-2015, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Glasshouse View Post
Granted, Peter and Zara are grandchildren of a sovereign; however, they are untitled "commoners." Would they still wear coronets? I don't believe they have a right to bear a coronet of any rank on their coats of arms.
Does that include Louise and James too?
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  #242  
Old 08-21-2015, 07:19 PM
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The service itself hasn't changed since the 1600s. A 70 something Charles is in better health than a 61 Edward VII post appendix surgery. The King and Queen are sitting through most of the service. Probably the end procession with the St Edwards Crown out is the most difficult. There would be train bearers for the King. Plus if Camilla go ahead with the Princess Consort would she even need to be anointed and crown?

I can the audience in the Abbey being changed- more diverse people from the UK and commonwealth then peers in robes. Nominated for their good deeds. That sort of thing. If the Abbey, which is funded by visitors, isn't closed to expand the seating, then maybe there is a quicker turnaround between ascension and crowing.


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  #243  
Old 08-21-2015, 07:56 PM
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The formal 'mourning' period is one year. The Coronation is held in summer. That is why they have had up to 18 months or so from accession to Coronation a few times - otherwise the women would have to be in mourning colours and even the music would have to reflect that. or the coronation would be in winter.


Charles at say 78 will still be less fit than he is now and the service does go for hours and he has to move around with a very heavy robe on, even with pages to carry it, it still weighs a lot on the shoulders etc.


Edward VII's service is now the one that is followed with only the five senior peers - other than family and the Archbishops swearing allegiance rather than every peer - and that is a very important part of the ceremony. Take the peers out of it and it can be cut back quite a lot. The coronation was not just about crowing the new monarch but having the peers swear personal allegiance to the new monarch. It wasn't really for the 'ordinary' person in the street although now it is for a range of different reasons.
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  #244  
Old 08-21-2015, 09:02 PM
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Perhaps Charles isn't person being crowned? I wonder if the Queen follows the Queen Mum's path and lives to say 98 and Charles is 76 when he becomes King but is in poor health himself. Would they go ahead with a coronation within a 2 yr window or not bother with it- sort of what happened with the King is a child. They wait for him to grow up a bit. Would they not do the coronation and just wait for William? Charles would be King but not crowned.


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  #245  
Old 08-21-2015, 09:32 PM
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No.


Just because Charles will be the oldest person to be crowned if he is King he will be crowned.


They only ways Charles isn't crowned is if he doesn't become King or if he is already mentally incapacitated and their is a regency in place during his reign.
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  #246  
Old 08-21-2015, 11:16 PM
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No one knows what the future hold, but Charles is pretty much a healthy man and will be able to handle his Coronation. After waiting all these years for the "Top Job" (as Diana called it), Charles will do everything possible to make sure he's in good shape for his crowning.
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  #247  
Old 08-21-2015, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
The article I read had a coronet for the heir-apparent, children of the heir apparent, children of the other sons of the sovereign, grandchildren of the sovereign.

There is a difference of one word between what you and I wrote- a vs the. If it's the , Charles is the sovereign in this discussion and the coronets are limited to Anne, Andrew and Edwards as siblings and then W and H's families.

If a is right, it adds Peter, Zara, Bea, Eugenie, Louise, James, David Linley, Sarah Chatto, DoGloucester, DoKent, Michael of Kent, Alexandra of Kent

The 2 Dukes would had a coronet as dukes.

Which is right?


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Lady Patricia Ramsey wore the coronet of a sovereign's granddaughter at the coronations of Edward VII, George V, George VI and Elizabeth II. It's "a" not "the."

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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Probably they would not use this Crown for William. The one for Charles was made specailly for him as the ral üprince of Wales cvoronet was still with the Duke of Windsor.
The coronet worn by the future Edward VIII at his investiture as POW was NOT the one he wore at his father's coronation - it was specifically made for that ceremony. The "Prince of Wales" coronet is different from the "Heir Apparent's" coronet. As a matter of fact, I Edward VIII and the current Prince of Wales are the only POWs to ever have an investiture: all the rest were simply created by Letters Patent with no ceremony. On the other hand, all the POWs who were present at their parents' coronations wore the traditional Heir Apparent's coronet. The coronet Prince Charles wore in 1969 was also made specifically for him - and if rumor is correct, not of overly-valuable materials...
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  #248  
Old 08-22-2015, 01:42 AM
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I think the technological improvements since the last Coronation will make the set up of the cathedral a lot faster. Camera's and sound systems will not be taking up vast amounts of space. Even the tiered seating can go up faster and safer. We only have to look at the speed with which some pretty radical changes were made for William's wedding.

Any major cuts to the actual Coronation Order of Service itself are unlikely as the Coronation remains, rightly or wrongly, the cornerstone of the Reign.

Reading earlier I saw that someone had queried the status of Princess Anne's children and I have to admit I will be interested to see what happens there. Since the changes to the succession affected only William's issue, I imagine that there will be no significant differences.
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  #249  
Old 08-22-2015, 01:46 AM
eya eya is online now
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
No one knows what the future hold, but Charles is pretty much a healthy man and will be able to handle his Coronation. After waiting all these years for the "Top Job" (as Diana called it), Charles will do everything possible to make sure he's in good shape for his crowning.

That i think me too. Charles if become King (who knows) sure wore the crown.
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  #250  
Old 08-22-2015, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I think the technological improvements since the last Coronation will make the set up of the cathedral a lot faster. Camera's and sound systems will not be taking up vast amounts of space. Even the tiered seating can go up faster and safer. We only have to look at the speed with which some pretty radical changes were made for William's wedding.
Westminster Abbey can hold 2000 quite comfortable - and that is how many they had there for William and Kate's.

For a Coronation extra seating is needed along with other parts of the Abbey needing to be re-arranged as they have been done e.g. the area where William and Kate went to sign the registry has to be opened up more.

Quote:
Any major cuts to the actual Coronation Order of Service itself are unlikely as the Coronation remains, rightly or wrongly, the cornerstone of the Reign.
Until 1901 EVERY peer of the realm individually and in person made their oath of allegiance. After 1901 only the most senior of the five levels of the peerage have done so - cutting quite a long period of time from the service.

If necessary more can be cut - including the entire section where the oaths are sworn.

They could also cut out the communion service - and there goes another 30 minutes or so.

Quote:
Reading earlier I saw that someone had queried the status of Princess Anne's children and I have to admit I will be interested to see what happens there. Since the changes to the succession affected only William's issue, I imagine that there will be no significant differences.
The changes to the succession didn't only affect William's issue but all children born after October 2011 e.g. two of the Duke of Gloucester's grandchildren's place in the line of succession changed after that law came into effect as the younger brother was moved down below his older sister as they were born after the cut-off date.

Anne's children are commoners with no titles, and the children of commoners, while Andrew's and Edward's children, regardless of the HRH issue, are the children of a peer of the realm with the status, at least, that that bestows on them.


This is one of those occasions when finding a precedent will be difficult as in the past female line grandchildren of a monarch have also been the children of peers of the realm e.g. Princess Mary's children in 1953. Margaret's children are also the children of a peer of the realm, giving them a different status than those of Anne's. That makes the situation for Peter and Zara at a coronation different. I would simply expect them to have seats in a royal box while Margaret's son may very well have a seat in the body of the Abbey as possibly by then an Earl in his own right or at the very least still their heir apparent to an Earldom.
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  #251  
Old 08-22-2015, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Does that include Louise and James too?
James Wessex is a Viscount. Depending on his age and attendance, he can indeed wear the robes and a coronet of a Peer of the Realm with the rank of a viscount. Lady Louise is no Peeress in her own right nor is she married to a Peer. I think we will not see her in robes and a coronet.

Having said that, I hope the dressing-party will be limited and not go out of hand, turning it all into a vaudeville theatre and a thankful inspiration for mockeries and satirical comments. That Peers of the Realm wear their robes is nothing new. We see that every year. For myself I would take these ugly red, smelly robes out of the mothballs and set them in fire. Let the gentlemen be dressed in tails and the ladies in long (the same dresscode as in the Netherlands).

Here we can see the Lords and Ladies Peers of the Realm in these ugly red cloths and look how they dress themselves: see picture. Awful! In comparison, see the Netherlands (see picture) with the gentlemen dressed in jacquet (morning tails) and the ladies with hats, better than the ladies in the red rags we saw during the State Opening earlier this year. Be honest: what does look more neat, clean and crisp?
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  #252  
Old 08-22-2015, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Westminster Abbey can hold 2000 quite comfortable - and that is how many they had there for William and Kate's.

For a Coronation extra seating is needed along with other parts of the Abbey needing to be re-arranged as they have been done e.g. the area where William and Kate went to sign the registry has to be opened up more.
I read that in 1953 there where 7000 people in the Abbey for the coronation. Then they 1953 the Abbes was closed for 6 months before the coronation because of preparations for the Coronation. Don't think they will need as long the next time. I could imagine that it could be done in 2-3 weeks.
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  #253  
Old 08-22-2015, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
James Wessex is a Viscount. Depending on his age and attendance, he can indeed wear the robes and a coronet of a Peer of the Realm with the rank of a viscount. Lady Louise is no Peeress in her own right nor is she married to a Peer. I think we will not see her in robes and a coronet.
James is NOT a Viscount. He uses his father second title as a courtesy but in his own right he holds no title, other than Lord. He is not therefore a peer of the realm - yet. He will be when his father dies and he inherits his father's titles of Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn.

Quote:
Having said that, I hope the dressing-party will be limited and not go out of hand, turning it all into a vaudeville theatre and a thankful inspiration for mockeries and satirical comments. That Peers of the Realm wear their robes is nothing new. We see that every year. For myself I would take these ugly red, smelly robes out of the mothballs and set them in fire. Let the gentlemen be dressed in tails and the ladies in long (the same dresscode as in the Netherlands).

Here we can see the Lords and Ladies Peers of the Realm in these ugly red cloths and look how they dress themselves: see picture. Awful! In comparison, see the Netherlands (see picture) with the gentlemen dressed in jacquet (morning tails) and the ladies with hats, better than the ladies in the red rags we saw during the State Opening earlier this year. Be honest: what does look more neat, clean and crisp?
The British peers, in their red robes, look magnificent.


They are NOT wearing 'cloths' or 'rags' (both terms are rather insulting as implying they are rubbish and only fit to be used for cleaning purposes) but 'robes' made from the finest wool with a collar of miniver fur and silk satin ties. This is what they wear to the State Opening of Parliament. For a Coronation they will wear different robes - made from crimson velvet, with white satin ribbon ties and a cape and colour of miniver fur. Under that they wear court uniform. Having seen the robes that the Duke and Duchess of Devonshire wore in 1953 - along with their Coronation Chairs - on display at Chatsworth they were really grand.


They are old-fashioned and traditional which is exactly what the BRF is in many ways. They have preserved many traditions that other royal houses have dispensed with and one of them is the coronation itself (mainly because the British monarch is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and so a formal religious ceremony is included).



I see no need to constantly put down the British way of doing things by saying that the continental royals do it better. Why not respect each way as different and enjoy them for their differences as much as their similarities?
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  #254  
Old 08-22-2015, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post

[....]

The British peers, in their red robes, look magnificent.

[....]
I have looked to the picture again to see the magnifence in all this. I see a Lord with a blue collared shirt wearing his cloths poorly, I see a Lady with white pantalons and peeptoe shoes under her robes and a Lady with -so to see- black sneakers. Quelle magnificence! This is the best advert for an abolition of the House of Lords.

Imagine that all these gentlemen wore neat jacquets and these ladies in nice dresses with hats and gloves? Really, the Peers above look like my sister and myself pulling grandma's bed covers out of the mothballs and dressing around our shoulders to play!

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  #255  
Old 08-22-2015, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I read that in 1953 there where 7000 people in the Abbey for the coronation. Then they 1953 the Abbes was closed for 6 months before the coronation because of preparations for the Coronation. Don't think they will need as long the next time. I could imagine that it could be done in 2-3 weeks.
They need to put in the seating for around 6000 - 7000 people:

the peers of the realm and the peeresses have increased in number quite significantly due to the number of life peers;

the other realms will have their GGs and Heads of Government and their partners (probably means 30 for instance from Australia - due to 6 states, 2 territories and a federal government);

the Heads of Government of the rest of the Commonwealth that are not realms;

the representatives of the EU (Deputy Head of Government or Head of State, Crown Princes/Princesses and partners), probably the same from NATO if not already included;

other royal houses will send their Crown Prince/Princesses and partner (not the monarch - Heads of State do NOT attend these events but their deputies);

the Ambassadors and High Commissioners and partners of other nations at least if not all of the above as well,

family,

friends,

charities (Charles has over 400 along with Camilla's and will add quite a few more that have the monarch as their patron automatically although he will pass some automatically to William) adding many more people.

Then there are the British politicians who number around 600 - although not all will attend but they will have partners so even if only half the House of Commons is invited with partners there is 600 but if all politicians are invited it will be around 1200.

All members of the Privy Council (not already qualified from the above list) would also be invited with their partners as would

all the members of the Orders of Chivalry such as Garter, Thistle, Bath etc if not already on the list with partners.

This list is probably not even complete with the types of people who would rightly expect an invitation to the major State event. This isn't a private event like William and Kate's wedding was but a full State event so friends and family take a back seat to the requirements of the government of the day to make a splash.
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  #256  
Old 08-22-2015, 03:01 PM
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The moment the Queen is crowned. Always sends chills down my spine. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the first to pay homage, followed by the Duke of Edinburgh.

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Queen is presented with Royal Sceptre, Orb, and she is crowned by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Royal family watching the ceremony. Top shot of the Queen being crowned (slightly out of focus).

Queen walks with clergy to Chair of State. As she sits, Archbishop of Canterbury pays homage to her as his sovereign. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh kneels and swears his loyalty, then kisses her on left cheek and leaves. Several shots of the dignitaries, peers, and clergy. Queen receives communion. The end of ceremony - Queen and her entourage walking slowly out of the cathedral - choir sings the National Anthem. Queen leaving the Abbey in State Coach.
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  #257  
Old 08-22-2015, 03:13 PM
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Coronation Of George VI And Queen Elizabeth


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  #258  
Old 08-22-2015, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
One reason why I suspect it won't be as grand is that Westminster Abbey was closed to the public for six months to prepare it for the coronation - to put in all the extra seating etc. I don't see them closing the Abbey for that length of time which would mean fewer guests at the ceremony.


I am not sure it will be anything like 1953 - certainly it will be simpler. One reason will be Charles' age. He will probably be in his late 70s at the time and so the ceremony will need to be shortened for him so he can simply survive it - it would be awful if he couldn't last through the ceremony due to health issues. The Queen was a young woman in her 20s while her son will be in his 70s and he isn't as fit now as he was even 10 years ago. Camilla's health will also be a factor as she also has to make it through the ceremony - whether she is going to be crowned as Queen or simply take the title of Princess Consort she still has to be there for the entire ceremony.

A key issue in my opinion is the nature of the association between Church and State in the UK. Prince Charles has indicated several times that he would be OK with disestablishing the CoE when he becomes king, and I think that will happen eventually at some point in his reign as most British political parties seem to favor disestablishment or, at least, don't have any major reason to oppose it. If and when the State Church is disestablished, the case for replacing the coronation with a Dutch-like secular inauguration will be much stronger.
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  #259  
Old 08-22-2015, 03:27 PM
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The Settlement of the Church of England is by law. Charles no doubt has his opinions but as is with most things, it will be up to Parliament to decide.

Most politicians probably don't care one way or the other but faith leaders do support having an established church, even leaders from other faiths like Islam because it keeps religion in an 'official' position. There are no votes gained by disestablishment so I wouldn't expect it to happen anytime soon.

Do to demographics the time may come when the Church of England is no longer Anglican but I can't see it being done away with.
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  #260  
Old 08-22-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post

Do to demographics the time may come when the Church of England is no longer Anglican .
What do you mean by this Rudolph?

I can see a time when the Church of England is no longer the largest Christian denomination in the UK. I am Anglican but I would favour the separation of Church and State. That's not to say the King or Queen cannot personally by a person of considerable faith (and I believe Prince Charles is - and a regular church goer).

If it were up to the monarch (and as pointed out, it isn't) I think the situation would be more likely to change with William than with Charles. I can't see the religious aspect changing too much for the coronation of Charles III but I can for William V. By the time of William's coronation, I'm not even sure Christianity would be the largest religion in the UK.
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