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  #301  
Old 07-17-2011, 08:31 AM
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Impressive photos:

BBC News - In pictures: Funeral of Otto von Habsburg

and:

BBC News - Habsburg: Funeral held for last Austro-Hungarian heir



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  #302  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:35 AM
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Thanks for the links Lucien !!! You are right, the photos are impressive.
...And many, many thanks for all your work and information in this forum... You are really great !!!
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  #303  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by claypoint2 View Post
What a puzzling and nonsensical comment to make in the context of this forum and of this particular discussion! If you're holding onto the fact that the monarchy was abolished in Austria in 1918, then no one would have been singing the Kaiserhymne in the Cathedral because no one would recognize that Otto was part of the Imperial family. In that case, we wouldn't be offering hypotheses about why some members of royal families sang the hymn whereas others didn't.

Note that we are not debating here the use of titles in different countries - there are certainly other forums that focus on that topic - but we are wondering together and trying to understand why some people sang and others didn't. We all have our different ideas, but the fact that Austria doesn't recognize titles of nobility is neither here nor there. To most everyone in that church - and certainly within the family - she is Archduchess Marie-Astrid of Austria. I doubt that anyone would disagree with that statement. The fact that she didn't sing - whether it be because she was emotional, at prayer, or refraining out of allegiance to Luxembourg - is still interesting, and there is no reason why we shouldn't discuss it and offer our guesses.

In fact, my impression is that you simply don't like my comments and want to be argumentative. If so, it's a free forum, so go ahead....
If you say so
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  #304  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Noor Mariam View Post
Thanks for the links Lucien !!! You are right, the photos are impressive.
...And many, many thanks for all your work and information in this forum... You are really great !!!
I second that Lucien
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  #305  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
...Prince Jaime of Burbon-Parma was in the second desk and King Mihai I of romania, King Simeon Ii of Bulgaria and Princess Astrid of Belgium in the third one.Prince Jaime was hardly representing his aunt...
Prince Jaime's grandfather was the Empress Zita's elder brother.
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  #306  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:12 PM
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Do not forget HM King Mihai I of Romania married Empress Zita's nice Princeaa Ana of Bourbon-Parme.
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  #307  
Old 07-17-2011, 12:23 PM
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What I - as a legitimist - think is highly remarkable is the fact that in Austria, that abolished Monarchy and titles, such a ceremony has taken place.
You just have to think it over, it was in the presence of the Austrian "president" and chancellor that the coffins were covered with the old banners, the coffin of HI&RH was followed by the Imperial Austrian Standard and the Kaiserhymne was song in the Stephansdom. In the City the "republican" Austrian Army paid respect to the late Archduke. The city was crowded with thousands of people.
So I ask You: If a republic really would have the power to abolish titles of families living to traditions over a couple of hundred years and to abolish Monarchy or would even take this measures serious, what have the "president" and the chancellor done there? It is meaningless whether they sung or not, just their simple presence shows that they recognize the fact that there is more to the ideals of monarchy and that these cannot be abolished.
Those families we are talking about in this forum are and will always be noble, will be royal or imperial - no matter what politicians will say or "decide", and this devine right cannot be taken away from them - as we all could see yesterday in Vienna.
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  #308  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Nadine View Post
Thank You, Lucien, for all the info. you provide, including the much coveted links. :)

Because of you I was able to watch the whole beautiful ceremony live early this morning.
I second that! I was also able to watch because of the links that you provided. Thank you, lucien.
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  #309  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
Thanks for the explanation but I am Catholic and I do attend mass every sunday so I know what I am speaking about when I am saying not eveybody is kneeling during consecration or for receiving communion in France. That is why I spoke about "cultural reason".
Thank you, Sancia. I didn't mean to suggest (at all!) that what you said wasn't true, only that there is theological meaning to the different liturgical postures, so they are not merely a matter of cultural practice. Sometimes people understand what these theological meanings are, and sometimes they merely follow what everyone else is doing in church, and it becomes a habit. But, in every case, a bishop or priest (who has studied liturgy in seminary) has made a decision to institute a particular practice in his diocese or parish. Of course sometimes people move from one parish to another after having become accustomed to one practice, so you may see mixed practices in one Mass or service. Anyway... I'm not disagreeing with you, except perhaps on the point that culture doesn't (in my opinion) have that much to do with it; it is fundamentally a question of liturgy and theology.
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  #310  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SchwarzerAdler View Post
What I - as a legitimist - think is highly remarkable is the fact that in Austria, that abolished Monarchy and titles, such a ceremony has taken place.
You just have to think it over, it was in the presence of the Austrian "president" and chancellor that the coffins were covered with the old banners, the coffin of HI&RH was followed by the Imperial Austrian Standard and the Kaiserhymne was song in the Stephansdom. In the City the "republican" Austrian Army paid respect to the late Archduke. The city was crowded with thousands of people.
I agree! It is truly quite remarkable that things happened as they did. Thank you for taking a step back and putting things in context.
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  #311  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by claypoint2 View Post
Thank you, Sancia. I didn't mean to suggest (at all!) that what you said wasn't true, only that there is theological meaning to the different liturgical postures, so they are not merely a matter of cultural practice. Sometimes people understand what these theological meanings are, and sometimes they merely follow what everyone else seems is doing in church, and it becomes a habit. But, in every case, a bishop or priest (who has studied liturgy in seminary) has made a decision to institute a particular practice in his diocese or parish. Of course sometimes people move from one parish to another after having become accustomed to one practice, so you may see mixed practices in one Mass or service. Anyway... I'm not disagreeing with you, except perhaps on the point that culture doesn't (in my opinion) have that much to do with it; it is fundamentally a question of liturgy and theology.
Just to explain one more point: I spoke about culture because french bishops gave the autorization to keep standing during consecration or communion with a gesture showing our respect for what is happening. They gave authorization too to receive communion while standing. Of course, that doesn't mean that kneeling during the Canon is forbidden. More and more people are kneeling for consecration but it is still rare to kneel while receiving communion. These authorizations are much discussed but they are still in use. That is why I used the word "culture".
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  #312  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SchwarzerAdler View Post
So I ask You: If a republic really would have the power to abolish titles of families living to traditions over a couple of hundred years and to abolish Monarchy or would even take this measures serious, what have the "president" and the chancellor done there? It is meaningless whether they sung or not, just their simple presence shows that they recognize the fact that there is more to the ideals of monarchy and that these cannot be abolished.
Those families we are talking about in this forum are and will always be noble, will be royal or imperial - no matter what politicians will say or "decide", and this devine right cannot be taken away from them - as we all could see yesterday in Vienna.
I highly doubt that they will offer such a funeral in the future to any member of the Habsburgs. Otto has been true to Austria and true to Europe throughout his life and for that service to his nation he was granted this funeral. The official Austria allowed his family to follow family traditions during this state function and thus the "Kaiserhymne" was played and sung. This was explained by the chancellor and the president of Austria before they entered the Stephansdom on Austrian TV. When they celebrated a requiem for the former Lord Mayor of Vienna, Zilk, his family asked for a "Donauwalzer" (Blue Danube Waltz) to be played. The Habsburgs wanted the Kaiserhymne and got it. The official Austria attended to pay their respects to a Great Austrian and a great European who helped Austria to become a part of the EU. It was not a bow to the head of the Habsburg family or the "emperor of Austria".
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  #313  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
Just to explain one more point: I spoke about culture because french bishops gave the autorization to keep standing during consecration or communion with a gesture showing our respect for what is happening. They gave authorization too to receive communion while standing. Of course, that doesn't mean that kneeling during the Canon is forbidden. More and more people are kneeling for consecration but it is still rare to kneel while receiving communion. These authorizations are much discussed but they are still in use. That is why I used the word "culture".
Thank you, Sancia. I take maria-olivia's point that we should stay on the topic of this thread, so I'll send you a private message to clarify.
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  #314  
Old 07-17-2011, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Way Too short-sighted,the deceased had a broader view on the eucomenical cause and would not have minded a bit.These sort of ultra strict nonsense is not of this world anymore,flexibilty and opennes to other denominations is.So,If Carl XVI did receives Communion,good,got him a taste of us Catholics.We like to share all our goods with all!That is the Christian spirit.

Ecumenism is one thing, abuse of the Sacrament due to arrogance or ignorance is another matter entirely.

I do not presume to believe that a faithful son of the Church as was his late Imperial and Royal Highness would have countenanced such a thing...even in the name of something as commendable as ecumenism.

There are limits.
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  #315  
Old 07-17-2011, 03:44 PM
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I was glad that I had the opportunity, via 3sat, to watch the funeral on TV yesterday. What a historical event it was! I was deeply impressed and I think it was an appropriate good-bye for a remarkable man. May he rest in peace now.
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  #316  
Old 07-17-2011, 05:43 PM
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Anyone know where I can get an mp3 or CD of a choral version of "Gott Erhalte Gott Beschütze?" iTunes has a choral version of "Gott Erhalte Franz den Kaiser" and numerous orchestral versions, but not "Gott Erhalte Gott Beschutze."

Thanks.
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  #317  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchwarzerAdler View Post
What I - as a legitimist - think is highly remarkable is the fact that in Austria, that abolished Monarchy and titles, such a ceremony has taken place.
You just have to think it over, it was in the presence of the Austrian "president" and chancellor that the coffins were covered with the old banners, the coffin of HI&RH was followed by the Imperial Austrian Standard and the Kaiserhymne was song in the Stephansdom. In the City the "republican" Austrian Army paid respect to the late Archduke. The city was crowded with thousands of people.
So I ask You: If a republic really would have the power to abolish titles of families living to traditions over a couple of hundred years and to abolish Monarchy or would even take this measures serious, what have the "president" and the chancellor done there? It is meaningless whether they sung or not, just their simple presence shows that they recognize the fact that there is more to the ideals of monarchy and that these cannot be abolished.
Those families we are talking about in this forum are and will always be noble, will be royal or imperial - no matter what politicians will say or "decide", and this devine right cannot be taken away from them - as we all could see yesterday in Vienna.


I agree 1000% with you.No politician has any say in any way on titles etc etc,whatever they may think themselves.

We have witnessed a re-living of the Empire in an absolutely stunning and astonishing manner.Allthought the Archduke Otto was the last to be granted this ceremony and the last to be interred in the Imperial Crypt,the memory of yesterday will not fade easily,if at all,to all those thousands witnissing it.Some Austrian politicians were taken so aback by it all they only could utter when asked what they thought of the farewell to Otto of Austria:' We have learned more today on who we are as Austrians". A most remarkeble comment I would say.

You forgot to add that the Austrian Foreign Minister was in attendance at the Dom as well as the former Chancellor Schlüssel of Austria.All that while the Austrian top brass insisted on being part of the ceremony,which they did in a splendid manner.The Austrian republic bowed,and bowed deep.And rightfully so!



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  #318  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:46 PM
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Photos of the heart ceremony in Budapest 17 July 2011
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  #319  
Old 07-17-2011, 07:48 PM
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I agree 1000% with you.No politician has any say in any way on titles etc etc,whatever they may think themselves.
Totally agree with both of you. But we might have such a funeral again in the future. Otto pretty much earned those honours by being a relentless fighter for his own believes, let's remember he lived through nazism, communism, rejection coming from 'allies', and indifference at large. He had to work, he became a scholar, a politician, a diplomat, he had to provide for his own family, he studied at times when princes did not study and worked. He raised a large family and he worked tirelessly and passionately. Of course he was also a Habsburg and you can separate that from him, but he didn't sit and wait, he lived life to the fullest and he achieved a lot.

So that might happen again, and someone from the new generations might achieved a lot and might be honoured in life and death.
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  #320  
Old 07-18-2011, 01:50 AM
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No,that will not happen again Johann Salvator.It really was the last of these ceremonies with full honours.Otto and Regina were the last to be interred,according to the secretary,assistant of the late Archduke Otto & speaker of the House of Habsburg,Mrs.Eva Demmerle a week ago.

Yesterday the Urn with the Heart of the late Archduke was interred at the Benedictine Abbey of Pannonhalma,Hungary,after a Requiem at the Basilicaof St.Stephan,Budapest.The Urn was then taken to Pannonhalma where it was interred after a short simple service.

This evening at 18.00PM,monday july 18th,there will be a Requiem at the Capuchin church,Vienna,in honour of the deceased Archduke Otto,by the Historical Societies that took part in the ceremonies last week,especially saturday.All who wish can attend.

Pannonhalma yesterday:

BBC News - Otto von Habsburg's heart buried in Hungary


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