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  #201  
Old 06-05-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
I think that relations between Alexandre and some members of Grimaldi Princely Family will always be difficult because they are afraid that, as the oldest son of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco, he claims one day the throne of his father.

The concept of "illegitimate child" was abolishes from the French law. Alexandre, who was born in France, is in fact a legitimate heir of his father. The law authorizes him to bear the name Grimaldi and to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms which belong to the inheritance of his father. Almost all the noble titles of the current Grimaldi were transmitted to them by their paternal grandmother, Princess Charlotte, who was herself a natural child. Since the advent of Grimaldi in Monaco, the children born out of the wedding were never excluded from the line of succession.

Alexandre has many supports in Monaco, in France and in the whole world.
We are happy to see that the European press starts to be aligned on the legitimists arguments about the Monegasque line of succession.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
We already had this conversation, and I'll answer just once. I respect everyone's opinion, but I expect you to give facts straight and not bend them to mislead people:
1) Princess Charlotte became heiress not as an illegitimate daughter but because she was adopted by her father; had she not been adopted she wouldn't have been in the succession line (under the present Constitution adoption is not an option anymore).
2) I'm glad French law abolished the concept of "illegitimate son", but this has no influence on Monaco, and particularly on succession laws. Monaco succession laws (or those of any other Country as far as I know) have NEVER included children born out of wedlock; this state of things might change (and maybe the male preference might be abolished as well in the future), but at the moment whether France recognizes or not illegitimate children has got absolutely nothing to do with Albert's potential heir/heiress.
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  #202  
Old 06-06-2006, 05:06 PM
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Does France have legal authority of Monaco? Or, can French law make PA legitimize Alexandre? I was under the impression that the French can not make the citizens of Monaco doing anything they don't want to do. Am I wrong?
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  #203  
Old 06-06-2006, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sashajones
Does France have legal authority of Monaco? Or, can French law make PA legitimize Alexandre? I was under the impression that the French can not make the citizens of Monaco doing anything they don't want to do. Am I wrong?
They are separate, sovereign nations ruled by separate Constitutions with completely different governments. France cannot make Monaco do anything.
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  #204  
Old 06-07-2006, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
We already had this conversation, and I'll answer just once. I respect everyone's opinion, but I expect you to give facts straight and not bend them to mislead people:
1) Princess Charlotte became heiress not as an illegitimate daughter but because she was adopted by her father; had she not been adopted she wouldn't have been in the succession line (under the present Constitution adoption is not an option anymore).
2) I'm glad French law abolished the concept of "illegitimate son", but this has no influence on Monaco, and particularly on succession laws. Monaco succession laws (or those of any other Country as far as I know) have NEVER included children born out of wedlock; this state of things might change (and maybe the male preference might be abolished as well in the future), but at the moment whether France recognizes or not illegitimate children has got absolutely nothing to do with Albert's potential heir/heiress.


Princess Charlotte, even adopted by her father, was born out of wedlock and she was a natural child anyway.

If the 2002 Treaty signed by France and Monaco makes clear that the two territories are distinct and separate, it specifies also that in return, Monaco will regularly consult with France to make sure that its actions are in accordance with the interests of French politics, economics, security and defense.

Under the French law, Alexandre is a legitimate heir of his father. We are sure that the concept of "illegitimate child" which was abolished in the French law, will be abolished in the Monegasque law too.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #205  
Old 06-07-2006, 04:27 PM
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Could you please answer me one question? If Charlotte hadn't been adopted, would she have been in the line of succession? Alex or Jazmin can still be the heir if Albert marries one of their mothers.

As for France, usually Republics don't have succession laws; anyway, even if such laws existed, consulting doesn't mean authomatically extending rules and laws.

Kisses
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  #206  
Old 06-07-2006, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
Princess Charlotte, even adopted by her father, was born out of wedlock and she was a natural child anyway.

If the 2002 Treaty signed by France and Monaco makes clear that the two territories are distinct and separate, it specifies also that in return, Monaco will regularly consult with France to make sure that its actions are in accordance with the interests of French politics, economics, security and defense.

Under the French law, Alexandre is a legitimate heir of his father. We are sure that the concept of "illegitimate child" which was abolished in the French law, will be abolished in the Monegasque law too.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
Legitimate heir in that he will split half of the half of Alberts fortune upon his death with his half sister Jazmin.
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  #207  
Old 06-08-2006, 03:08 AM
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Rainier created his will under French law. Albert's will undoubtedly follow Monaco law.

Albert will be able to leave any amount he wishes (or not) to these older children. The Princely Inheritance such as the Palais, Roc Angel and other holdings will go to the legitimate heirs. Jazmin and Eric Alexandre will never be in line for them.

I suspect Albert will provide trusts for them so that they will never do without as Rainier did with Stephanie and her children.

Ann
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  #208  
Old 06-08-2006, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
Rainier created his will under French law. Albert's will undoubtedly follow Monaco law.

Albert will be able to leave any amount he wishes (or not) to these older children. The Princely Inheritance such as the Palais, Roc Angel and other holdings will go to the legitimate heirs. Jazmin and Eric Alexandre will never be in line for them.

I suspect Albert will provide trusts for them so that they will never do without as Rainier did with Stephanie and her children.

Ann
THe Palace, stamp collection, car collection, valuable paintings etc. are not part of any heritage. They stay with whomever will be the sovereign of Monaco. They are no longer part of the princes private wealth. There are only a few appartments, shares and cash to inherit. Rainier made sure of that in his will. So de facto PA is far from being a billionaire. He sure has enough millions to take good care of all his children, but he is not even half as rich as the ratings make him out to be. He would never be able to sell any of the above mentioned. It is part of a trust and guarantees that in case of divorce claims, child support claims etc. these can not be touched.
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  #209  
Old 06-08-2006, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
Rainier created his will under French law. Albert's will undoubtedly follow Monaco law.

Albert will be able to leave any amount he wishes (or not) to these older children. The Princely Inheritance such as the Palais, Roc Angel and other holdings will go to the legitimate heirs. Jazmin and Eric Alexandre will never be in line for them.

I suspect Albert will provide trusts for them so that they will never do without as Rainier did with Stephanie and her children.

Ann
Good, I'm glad that they won't be able to take over just everything, but those kids will have comfortable lives. Nothing to every worry about for them or their mothers.

BTW, I knew Albert could be around pretty woman, take a look at this lady from the post in the Albert picture thread II:
(I do not know how to just make the link to the thread)

Originally Posted by Tosca
Prince Albert and Denny Mendez (originally from Santo Domingo, elected Miss Italy in 1996) at the Made Soccer Stars Gala. (DIVAeDONNA)



[img=http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4586/forums0052uv.th.jpg]
http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?i...rums0067we.jpg

How come PA could not have at least chosen to run around in secret with someone like that, at least this lady is pretty, imo.
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  #210  
Old 06-09-2006, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paca
There is an article in a German tabloid about a possible succession this week. Here is a link to the summary. http://www.aktuelle.de/aktuelle/cont...s.php?sid=2929


Thank you PACA.
I will add that under the French law, Alexandre is a legitimate child and that his legal and public recognition by his father also authorizes him to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms which belong to the inheritance of his father. All these noble titles, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French titles (Ex: Duc de Valentinois, Marquis des Baux...).

Alexandre, as the oldest male descendant, by male primogeniture, of Prince Rainier III and Prince Albert II, is also the future Head of Grimaldi Sovereign House of Monaco.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #211  
Old 06-09-2006, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
I will add that under the French law, Alexandre is a legitimate child and that his legal and public recognition by his father also authorizes him to raise the noble titles and the coat of arms which belong to the inheritance of his father. All these noble titles, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French titles (Ex: Duc de Valentinois, Marquis des Baux...).

Alexandre, as the oldest male descendant, by male primogeniture, of Prince Rainier III and Prince Albert II, is also the future Head of Grimaldi Sovereign House of Monaco.
Actually, I don't think that's true. Most, if not all of Alberts titles are Monegasque. They were passed on via a daughter (Rainier's mum) at least once. As titles have to go via a son, this made them all void. As the Grimaldis kept on carrying them, they are now Monegasque and not French. Not my opion, I just read it somewhere. I have also my doubt about the rest of your story, as it seems a bit too simple. For one: as I recall Albert stated that he was the biological father of Eric/Alexandre. That might not have been formulated like that for nothing. Evil lawyer speak and so on. The same with the "Juridically, Jazmin Grace is the daughter of prince Albert" (Mr. Lacoste in the Figaro last week). That is a sneaky sentence IMO.
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  #212  
Old 06-09-2006, 06:47 PM
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Ghislane. please. What do you think,Juridically means. Is it from jurisdiction? It seems unfortunate to me, that he would have to qualify the statement at all, after 14 years of hiding and subterfuge, denying.

Lacoste might be a "friend" of PA's but,imo not one of these little human beings whose lives are taken so casually. It just seems like a slap in the face to the wonderful phenomenon of human creation. I don't understand the nonchalance ,seemingly,for a little soul that probably has suffered some damage. This same Popular(?) attorney said some same casual/cold type stuff with Alex,"the DNA is 100", until PA decided to reframe it out of his own mouth. Has he done this with JG? She deserves sooo dearly,walking on this earth that long,so vaguely. (While I'm on my soapbox--)

These children in their reproduction processes took the same amount/number of genes,etc. to become a fetus then a child ,as those that would come from any two people who/whatever their initials are, now residing in tha Principality or yet to come. So they expect them to be highly praised and honored, well, n ot by the Universe. If I can get by with this-Its beginning to take on a hint of human disrespect, indeeed.

Since I'm chiming in with my two cents,this mother/daughter team has dooe ok, I'd be tempted to take my ----- to the bank and see what I could make of my life for the future.
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  #213  
Old 06-10-2006, 06:15 AM
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Neat,

Juridically, in my book, comes from the word law, so juridically would be something like "with regard to the law", or "for the law", something like that. What Mr. Lacoste actually meant (or implied), I don't have the faintest idea. It just struck me as an unnecessary addition to the statement. JG is or isn't Alberts daughter, she can't be his daughter for 50%:p. So I had something like: Okay... so she's juridically his daughter ... as opposed to what exactly? Biologically, practically, what... Mr. Lacoste is a lawyer after all, so he probably formulated it very carefully. Maybe it's just lawyer speak. Maybe I'm paranoid, reading too much in it. Deceive, inveigle and obfuscate - as the old X-files motto goes.

Anyway, back on topic: I recall you moved to Villefrance, did you meet your idols yet?

G.
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  #214  
Old 06-10-2006, 06:20 AM
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I think that means that she was his daughter biologically since she was concieved, and now she is his daughter also juridically, as to mean officially. Nothing to do with succession though...Just my opinion
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  #215  
Old 06-10-2006, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghislaine
Actually, I don't think that's true. Most, if not all of Alberts titles are Monegasque. They were passed on via a daughter (Rainier's mum) at least once. As titles have to go via a son, this made them all void. As the Grimaldis kept on carrying them, they are now Monegasque and not French. Not my opion, I just read it somewhere. I have also my doubt about the rest of your story, as it seems a bit too simple. For one: as I recall Albert stated that he was the biological father of Eric/Alexandre. That might not have been formulated like that for nothing. Evil lawyer speak and so on. The same with the "Juridically, Jazmin Grace is the daughter of prince Albert" (Mr. Lacoste in the Figaro last week). That is a sneaky sentence IMO.


I confirm it, all the noble titles hold by Prince Albert, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French noble titles and are concerned by the French law.

It does not matter the formula used by Mr. Thierry Lacoste, Alexandre and Jazmin Grace are Prince Albert's children and that gives them rights. It's time that everyone understands that Prince Albert's succession will be assured only by one of his direct descendants.

Alexandre is the oldest male descendant, by male primogeniture, of Prince Rainier III and Prince Albert II. According to the monarchist rules, he is the future Head of the Sovereign House of Monaco. Nobody can dispute this statute to him.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #216  
Old 06-10-2006, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
I confirm it, all the noble titles hold by Prince Albert, except the one of Prince of Monaco, are French noble titles and are concerned by the French law.

It does not matter the formula used by Mr. Thierry Lacoste, Alexandre and Jazmin Grace are Prince Albert's children and that gives them rights. It's time that everyone understands that Prince Albert's succession will be assured only by one of his direct descendants.

Alexandre is the oldest male descendant, by male primogeniture, of Prince Rainier III and Prince Albert II. According to the monarchist rules, he is the future Head of the Sovereign House of Monaco. Nobody can dispute this statute to him.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
Do you think Alex will get on the Throne without a Constitutional change, after the past change was made not to let him, Jazmin or any other natural child popping out on the Throne? I guess we'll wait and see...
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  #217  
Old 06-10-2006, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis14
Alexandre is the oldest male descendant, by male primogeniture, of Prince Rainier III and Prince Albert II. According to the monarchist rules, he is the future Head of the Sovereign House of Monaco. Nobody can dispute this statute to him.
Louis, you are being distracted by personal emotion and not acknowledging the facts. The Monaco Consitution lays down the law on succession to the throne in the Sovereign Principality, whatever "monarchist rules" (who's monarchy?) have to say. It's pretty straightforward, and easily understood. A successor to the throne must be the issue of a legal marriage. That's simple. Albert is not married to either of his children's mothers. That's fact. The Line of Successsion as it currently (and legally) stands is Caroline, Andrea, Pierre, Charlotte, Alexandra, Stephanie... It's a pretty pointless exercise to argue otherwise.
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  #218  
Old 06-10-2006, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren
Louis, you are being distracted by personal emotion and not acknowledging the facts. The Monaco Consitution lays down the law on succession to the throne in the Sovereign Principality, whatever "monarchist rules" (who's monarchy?) have to say. It's pretty straightforward, and easily understood. A successor to the throne must be the issue of a legal marriage. That's simple. Albert is not married to either of his children's mothers. That's fact. The Line of Successsion as it currently (and legally) stands is Caroline, Andrea, Pierre, Charlotte, Alexandra, Stephanie... It's a pretty pointless exercise to argue otherwise.


Warren, I respect your opinion even if I do not agree with you.

I am a Legitimist and I assume my ideas, this has nothing to do with a personal emotion. Under the French law, every child, born in or out of the wedlock, is considered as a legitimate heir of his parents. Monaco cannot ignore this French law : the 2002 threaty signed by the two countries which allows Monaco to be a sovereign principality, specifies that in return Monaco must put his laws in accordance with the French politics. This threaty too is a real fact.

The concept of the Head of the Sovereign House is different from the one of the Throne. The Head of the Sovereign House is the elder male descendant. This concept does not depend of any constitution, it's a question of birth. In Spain for example, the King is not the Head of the Sovereign House. Prince Louis de Bourbon, the elder male descendant of King Alfonso XIII of Spain, is always received by the Pope as the Head of the Sovereign House of Bourbon-Anjou-Spain.


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  #219  
Old 06-10-2006, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace
Do you think Alex will get on the Throne without a Constitutional change, after the past change was made not to let him, Jazmin or any other natural child popping out on the Throne? I guess we'll wait and see...

Dear Princess Grace,

Let's wait and see. Anyway, I respect your opinions.


Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #220  
Old 06-10-2006, 01:34 PM
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But Louis, why would PA say they were not in the line of succession if by law they were? And does Monaco really have to consult with France?
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