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  #181  
Old 03-29-2007, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
...but this overzealous preaching and proselytizing and beating the proverbial breast about Harry's sins is a bit pompous, over-dramatic, self-righteous, and quite frankly, quite boring and tedious.
Well if that's how Polly's view is perceived, then I dare say that perception fits in beautifully amongst the threads of this forum

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  #182  
Old 03-29-2007, 01:37 AM
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Gracious! This thread has been spinning mightily, and I haven't even entered the fray! I wholeheartedly agree with this quote:

"Fortunately, we are all allowed our opinion. The series of pictures from this week (different pics, same club, every couple of weeks) made it look like he was extremely drunk. Of course his father's going to trying to defend him. If he didn't get so drunk so often he wouldn't need anyone to defend him. I don't buy that boys will be boys and they'll grow out of it stuff. It is an optional activity. No one I know or hang around with DOWNS alcohol like that. We have fun while drinking soda. We never slip on the uneven pavement or pull some photographer down or have to be helped to our cars while drinking that soda."

This 'boys will boys' mentality is absolute rubbish. I agree with the poster, and also testify that I and many of my friends went through our early twenties quite free of this 'going to clubs and falling out of them in the early hours of the morning' stuff.

I am glad to see that he is going to patronize some charities - perhaps all the money he spends on booze could go to these worthy endeavours.

I also agree with Polly; he should start acting like a prince of the realm! Good on you, Polly!
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  #183  
Old 03-29-2007, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I am making no excuses for Harry's conduct but this overzealous preaching and proselytizing and beating the proverbial breast about Harry's sins is a bit pompous, over-dramatic, self-righteous, and quite frankly, quite boring and tedious.
I am in total agreement.

When you consider that the opportunities the press now have to get photo's of Harry in any place are severely restricted by the nature of his chosen profession, they have to make the stories up or embellish them considerably to qualify for tabloid fodder.

Hmmmm ..... I wonder if that accounts for the number of 'Princes" etc. in the military throughout Europe. Big, huge Military Policemen, and terrorist threats, provide a degree of privacy not afforded them in any other job in the 'outside' world.
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  #184  
Old 03-29-2007, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord of Cowley
This 'boys will boys' mentality is absolute rubbish. I agree with the poster, and also testify that I and many of my friends went through our early twenties quite free of this 'going to clubs and falling out of them in the early hours of the morning' stuff.

I am glad to see that he is going to patronize some charities - perhaps all the money he spends on booze could go to these worthy endeavours.

I also agree with Polly; he should start acting like a prince of the realm! Good on you, Polly!

Just because you and your friends went through your early twenties free of going to clubs and getting hammered doesn't mean that the adage "boys will be boys" is no less true. For every 3 people you could name that DIDN'T behave that way, I can name at least 5 who did. Yeah it's a bit of a blanket statement, but in covering those it is not true for, it will cover those for whom it is.


I think there are some people in this thread, not necessarily you, that are getting a bit self-righteous [as ysbel so rightly pointed out] in regard to Prince Harry and it's a bit alarming. I mean, whether he's a prince or a pauper, he's going to act like MOST 22 year old men act. That will include going out and getting wasted and falling down. I'd be more alarmed if he didn't act the way normal 22 year old's act.
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  #185  
Old 03-29-2007, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
This is the second time that Harry has gotten into a scuffle with photographers. Harry just can't go around and start assaulting photographers just because they annoy him.
Apparently, on this occasion as nothing has been proven.
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In my opinion she would have probably remind Harry that he has a public figure to watch and such behaviours would damage his reputation.
That would be hypocritical and more than a little like the pot calling the kettle black!
  #186  
Old 03-29-2007, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Cowley
testify that I and many of my friends went through our early twenties quite free of this 'going to clubs and falling out of them in the early hours of the morning' stuff.
How wonderful for you, it would be considered 'unusual' in most circles and most of us make no claim of being unusual or Ttotal saints.
  #187  
Old 03-29-2007, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord of Cowley
Gracious! ... and also testify that I and many of my friends ...
Gracious indeed! We're a discussion board, and thankfully no-one has to "testify" or swear on a bible to express an opinion.
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  #188  
Old 03-29-2007, 08:07 PM
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I've been away from my computer for a few days and I've been looking forward to reading the comments here about this incident. They've been very interesting!

To me, Harry sounds pretty normal for his age, and also sounds like fun. I have a soft spot for him. He doesn't seem to care too much about what other people think about him, and I rather like that in a person. I'm far more interested in substance than image, and as long as Harry does go on to make a worthwhile contribution - as I believe he will since he has already demonstrated an interest in being involved with worthwhile causes - and not follow in his great-great-uncle David's footsteps, I don't care about these youthful excesses. I think he will make a useful contribution in time, and probably become one of the most interesting and well-balanced modern Royals.

He does need to work out fairly soon how to go out and party and enjoy himself without getting this plastered, but that's much easier said than done and can take a while and it's not made any easier when hoards of photographers are lying in wait for you to make just this sort of blunder. I don't envy him at all; I think the role of the spare is a hellish one, especially for a person like Harry. It would be far easier for a bookish type who can get all the kicks he wants from a ginger ale, but that's not Harry.

And I love the fact he wears pink socks.
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  #189  
Old 03-29-2007, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
I've been away from my computer for a few days and I've been looking forward to reading the comments here about this incident. They've been very interesting! ...
Quoted for truth. You really hit the nail on the head here. I think reading some of these other posts here in regards to Harry's behavior made me think of something: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I think all of us here have done stupid things in our youth, not necessarily involving drink, but stupid things none the less, and we can all look back at how mortifying they were when people like our friends and family found out. Now imagine doing that same stupid thing with hordes of paparazzi flashing cameras in your face. A little different, no?

I can completely understand those that say as a Prince of the Realm he should conduct himself better than other 22 year old men in England. However, he wants to be just like every other 22 year old man in England....who just happens to be a Prince; not a Prince who just happens to be a 22 year old man in England. I really, really applaud him for wanting to be as normal and everyday as he possibly can be and normal, everyday people make stupid mistakes.
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  #190  
Old 03-29-2007, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
I've been away from my computer for a few days and I've been looking forward to reading the comments here about this incident. They've been very interesting!
The average person these days, tneds to consider "normal" things that were not "normal" in any way. The one who appreciates Harry and the Monarchy, will made another kind of commentaries. That we are here and there saying: "All he is doing is perfect. What a "fun" guy he is" is not helping him . And the "bookish type" of person that is sooo highly hated nowadays is not one who could get "all he wants from a ginger ale". Most of the time, "bookish type of persons" loves to drinks (I love to drink myself! I really hate these "healthy" kind of persons who eats their meals along with a soda pop or juice fruit or just plain water...UGH! ) , but love to drink don't means to put yourself in the sad state I saw Prince Harry more than once. Whe he visited my country, some year ago or so (I don't remember exactly when) he would get drunk every single night and the family who was with him must pray him to return to England, for they couldn't take care of him. He was agressive and wild every night when he was drunk, but at the morning time, he was the more sweet and good of the persons. For some reason, Prince Harry needs (this is not just love to drink alcool) to be drowned in liquor. He is not enjoying it. He needs help and not false flattering words aying "You're modern and cool...Go ahead!".

It's pretty sad that people uses to mistakes "fun" with bad behaviour; certainly, that's not new. I heard more than once that people who loved to live wildly apologizes him/herselves saying that a good behaviour is "boring" and that hell is more amusing than Heaven, for at hell you'll find "fun" people...Oh, well...

Don't forget: I'll not criticize Prince Harry for drinking alcool. I drink a lot, as well as my friends...I'm only against the way he drinks it and how his behaviour is after he'd drink. He seems to be killing himself. This is not "fun", nor "cool".

And...hey! What's up with "bookworm" persons? Nowadays, things that uses to be good now are bad, and things that were bad, uses to be good. Read is a good thing, and my opinion is that a Prince needs to read ever more than other persons...And believe me: reading is often more "fun" than get drunk and feel bad afterwards (Did you ever get drunk. ONce, I did and the sensations of it were so awful, that I always drink trying not to put myself in such a state...Vomiting feeling that the room was turning around me, and the bed will eat me! ). If you have a book you'll never get bored.

Vanesa.
  #191  
Old 03-29-2007, 10:28 PM
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I Feel Sorry for him Imagine everytime you sneeze theres a Bunch of Camaras in his face , Also a while ago I Asked everyone where everyone saw the Monarchy in 50 to 100 Years now a new Question for everyone to ponder: What will Henry be like at age 44 ???? thats 22 more years.
  #192  
Old 03-29-2007, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
How wonderful for you, it would be considered 'unusual' in most circles and most of us make no claim of being unusual or Ttotal saints.
I don't know if it's "unusual" in "most" circles to not frequent clubs and get sloshed almost daily. I think it's more common than many would want to admit. While most people whom I've ever had the pleasure of meeting enjoy going out once or twice a week, they are (most of them) very far indeed from the "get sloshed each night" crowd, if such a one exists, as I have no doubt it does. I'm not criticizing Prince Harry. In my view, he hasn't done anything horrible, however I do not pretend to see his frequency of going to clubs and being drunk as particularly "normal" or "common". "Normal" is such a subjective concept, but I think moderation might fairly be said to be more "normal" in some circles.
  #193  
Old 03-29-2007, 11:59 PM
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Well I seriously doubt Harry is going to read these threads to be helped or hindered in his habits in any way. If I wanted to help Harry, I certainly wouldn't try to help him by posting opinions in this thread. But that having been said, he is a royal and royalty is what we discuss. I care about the monarchy but I don't have a strong feeling whether my worlds help or hurt Harry at all since he's probably not going to read what I wrote here anyway.

This latest discussion could well be titled 'What to do about Harry' and the question of whether to do anything about Harry. The first question I thought of was how rare or unusual is this condition. The more unusual or rare the condition is, the more serious it is and the harder to treat. Its incredibly common in my home city of New York to see young people plastered and stumbling out of nightclubs on a Friday or Saturday night and when I was in London I saw the same thing.

Getting noxiously drunk is common enough habit among 20-25 year olds, at least among New Yorkers and Londoners that its impossible to claim that Harry's drinking is from some rare character flaw that only he and a handful of people have. That doesn't mean every 20-25 year old in New York or London drinks himself silly but enough 20 year olds drink themselves silly so that Harry's behavior cannot be called strange or unusual or never heard of for a 20-something year old.

On the other hand, just because a lot of 20-somethings do it doesn't necessarily make it healthy but because so many young people do it, its hard to predict the longterm effects on Harry. Not everybody that drinks like Harry faces severe longlasting ill-effects from the behavior, for everyone who was screwed up for life, there's another person who went through his drinking phase, stopped it when they got tired of it, and is now doing fine. Its impossible to tell from what we read in the papers how much Harry's drinking is really damaging him in the long run.

What I do know is that young people today do take more risks in general and that goes for the regular population as well as royalty. That is more dangerous, not only for Harry but for many of his generation but the problem is still not limited to Harry. So if Harry faces increased risk because of his behavior, he is reflecting the general increase in risk-taking among young people today. This is a by-product of wanting the royals to be like us. When royals become more like us, they take on our bad traits as well as our good traits.

Generally though if the heavy drinking turns out to be highly damaging for a person, that person had other severe problems that lead them to drink (however unwisely) People who go through the heavy drinking phase who have not had any major personal problems before this can usually get out of this phase without too much danger to themselves. If Harry's drinking is a problem, its rather a symptom of another problem rather than being the source of all of Harry's problems itself. Because we are not privy to Harry's personal thoughts and every detail of his personal life, its hard to judge what other problems he may have.

We can guess. His parents suffered a traumatic and very public and nasty divorce. He and his brother were pulled between them. This could affect a young man. However, we know from Diana that William was the shy, sensitive one who was scared of photographers and the press. Harry, she described, as a young boy who never let anything get to him and bragged that bad things rolled off him like water off a duck's back. She often talked about William being her confidante and 'little man' when she was down and depressed which could have been a heavy burden on the young boy but she never mentioned Harry in this role. She referred to Harry as her little rascal and the son who made her laugh. I think its safe to say that William as the eldest son and the most sensitive child bore the brunt of the fallout of his parents breakup. From what Diana has told us about Harry, I think its safe to say that the ill effects he suffered from his parents breakup were small compared to William's.

Harry did suffer the untimely death of his mother and the dragging of her name in the mud after she died. That is a hard loss to take. However, from all accounts, between William and Harry, Harry has made better peace with both his mother's and his father's legacy. He was the first son to come out and say he wanted to continue some of Diana's work in Africa and he made the first public interview where he talked about all the tell-all books that were coming out and said he wanted to do something different and make a memory of what she had done to help people. On the other hand, just because he wants to honor his mother's memory doesn't mean you can disrespect his father in his presence with inpunity. He will very clearly set you right. My guess is that if Charles is defending Harry now, it is a bit because Harry was so vocal about defending Charles when people criticized him. Its taken William longer to come out and make a public statement about his mother and her work. The charity that he recently took on and this memorial concert are the first acknowledgements that he's made. That doesn't mean that William loves his mother any less but I think it means that William's issues with his parent's were deeper, more complex, and not as easy to overcome as Harry's relationship with his parents so that it was much harder for William to publicly speak about his mother until only recently. Harry just seems to have loved both of his parents without reservation which is probably most confusing to fans who can't imagine how one could love both Charles and Diana. But Harry manages to do it and manages to do it without showing the effects of being pulled one way or another. Harry just seems to have made peace at least with Diana's memory and with being Charles' son. So these are the big issues that could affect Harry but from the looks of it, I would say they are affecting William more than Harry. And William is not drinking like a fish.

There are smaller issues and I think these bear looking into. The article Jo quoted mentioned the 'spare' syndrome. Harry from birth was an active sporting lad. One of the few things his parents agreed on was his schooling and in that sense I think they both were wrong. Harry was always very physical, very risk-taking. I think he would have done well in the rough and tumble world of Charles' old school, Gordonstoun, but Charles had had a terrible time there being bullied and Diana was adamant that her sons not be put in an environment where they could be bullied. It was the right decision for William but I believe the wrong decision for Harry who seems to need that physically competitive environment to steer him right.

Compound that with the role of the spare. Remember, I said the rarer a problem, the harder it is to solve. Being the spare to the throne of a reigning monarchy is about as rare a problem as you can get. There aren't too many rulebooks on how to handle that one. Harry can't go to a support group for spares to the throne like he could for his drinking problem.

As many of you noted, royalty is expected to act differently, more responsible than the rest of us but the spare to the throne doesn't really have anything meaningful to do and if he tries to do too much, he's accused of overstepping his bounds. Without any real political power, royalty is expected to be a living symbol. However Harry has shown from his previous words and actions that he wants to be a man of action and he wants to make a difference. There is an inherent conflict between his desire to make a real difference and royalty's role as a non-political symbol. The big debate over whether Harry would serve in Iraq is a symptom of this; in previous times, there would not have been any discussion; he would have just gone.

The heir has the same problem to an extent but at least the Queen and Charles can expose him to more and more responsible duties in preparation for his role as sovereign. Harry has no such blueprint. With his temperament and the no-man's land of his position, it was pretty much a given that he would go to Sandhurst and fulfill a military tour of duty to satisfy both his physical competitive nature and the country's need to see him give something back to the nation.

So if he goes to Iraq, I think he will fulfill both his temperamental destiny and the destiny of his role but such a tour of duty has to end sometime. That's where the problem will lie for that is where Andrew's problems started.

All the while Andrew was a young recruit, he drank like a fish and went out with unsavoury girls with hardly a damage to himself. He had a focus outside of his wild behavior, he was a fighting man and a hero and the girls and the wild nights were just idle playthings. However, his military career played havoc with his marriage and he left the one career that he was ultimately suited for.

Since then Andrew has not found that sense of purpose that he had as a fighting man and he's seemed a little bit lost.

My own opinion of Harry's drinking is that I don't think it will be a problem when he is in Iraq; he will have a mission and a focus for as long as he has a useful and meaningful military duty. Where the problems for Harry may lie is when he has to leave the military and his position as a royal limits what else he can do with his life. That is where any character flaw will come to the fore and if he still is drinking immoderately, his drinking will bring him down.

But its too early to tell right now.
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  #194  
Old 03-30-2007, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
But its too early to tell right now.
Wow! Great post, Ysbel. Your reasoning certainly makes sense to me.

Would it be possible for Harry to continue serving, or is there a reason he will have to leave the army early? Did Andrew only leave because of the damage being done to his marriage because of his long absences? From what Fergie has apparently said in her recent interview, she apparently expected to live with her husband like a normal navy wife but was told after the wedding that she couldn't do that. If Harry were able to life in married quarters like any officer, could he stay in the service if he wanted to?

I think the role - or, rather, the lack of one - of the "spare" is a hellish one.
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  #195  
Old 03-30-2007, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn
Wow! Great post, Ysbel. Your reasoning certainly makes sense to me.

Would it be possible for Harry to continue serving, or is there a reason he will have to leave the army early? Did Andrew only leave because of the damage being done to his marriage because of his long absences? From what Fergie has apparently said in her recent interview, she apparently expected to live with her husband like a normal navy wife but was told after the wedding that she couldn't do that. If Harry were able to life in married quarters like any officer, could he stay in the service if he wanted to?

I think the role - or, rather, the lack of one - of the "spare" is a hellish one.
Thanks Roslyn.

I think the public debate about Harry's going to Iraq shows that he won't be treated like any other serviceperson. He will undoubtedly hit roadblocks of where and how he will be allowed to serve. But someone with more inside knowledge of the British military would know better than I.

I think at a certain point, military men have to retire. I thought they had to retire well before the normal retirement age but I may be mistaken about that.

He may not find the same problem that Andrew did in his marriage. Its possible for him to find a wife that won't mind the long absences. That may not be a bad thing. Harry's such a fun-loving guy and a man's man, he may do better with a fun but respectable girl who only loves his for his title and money and will be quite happy playing the princess on her own while Harry is spending most of his time playing soldier halfway across the world. Harry may just be happy with a wife that holds down the fort at home so he can hang out with the boys.

That's my impression at least of Harry.
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  #196  
Old 03-30-2007, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn
Wow! Great post, Ysbel. Your reasoning certainly makes sense to me.

Would it be possible for Harry to continue serving, or is there a reason he will have to leave the army early? Did Andrew only leave because of the damage being done to his marriage because of his long absences? From what Fergie has apparently said in her recent interview, she apparently expected to live with her husband like a normal navy wife but was told after the wedding that she couldn't do that. If Harry were able to life in married quarters like any officer, could he stay in the service if he wanted to?

I think the role - or, rather, the lack of one - of the "spare" is a hellish one.

Andrew certainly didn't leave the navy due to his marriage problems. He separated from Sarah in 1992 and divorced her in 1996. However he didn't leave the navy until 2001 some 5 years after the divorce and 9 years after the breakdown of the marriage. It would be safe to say therefore that his marriage had nothing to do with the timing of his leaving the navy as he wasn't married at the time and hadn't been married for 5 years.
  #197  
Old 03-30-2007, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
But do you have any clue about the life of a Prince of the Realm, well-bred, immensely privileged, etc. etc. or are you making a guess on how you THINK a Prince of the Realm, well-bred, immensely privileged should act given what you've seen in the papers about Princes of the Realm, well-bred, immensely privileged, etc., etc. ?

I am making no excuses for Harry's conduct but this overzealous preaching and proselytizing and beating the proverbial breast about Harry's sins is a bit pompous, over-dramatic, self-righteous, and quite frankly, quite boring and tedious.
In answer to what I think is your question about my making a guess on how I THINK a Prince of the Realm should behave, well, yes, I am.

I'm sorry that you read my post as overzealous preaching (etc) and quite surprised! I didn't accuse him of 'sin', for a start. indeed, I specifically mentioned that I didn't dislike him.

But Harry is not the only 23 year old off to Iraq (which he requested, unlike some others) and he is not the only young man or woman of his rank to be deployed there. To use this an excuse for his poor behavioural standards is unacceptable to me. I repeat, he is old enough now to consider who he is and what's due to his position, his family and the people of the realm and dominions.

Perhaps, and it's only perhaps, because you are not Australian, Canadian or a New Zealander you can't appreciate how gleefully Prince Henry of Wales' behaviour is being viewed in some quarters. In Australia and New Zealand, for instance, republicanism is on the rise and Harry's playing right into republican hands.

Hence my comments on his duty to family and his position which, from a British Commonwealth perspective are very much to the point and may well have distasteful repercussions for those of us who are not republicans.

Finally, I apologise for taking so long to reply: I have continuing problems in accessing this board.
  #198  
Old 03-30-2007, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio
I don't know if it's "unusual" in "most" circles to not frequent clubs and get sloshed almost daily......
My post was in reply to someone who was 'testifying' that neither he nor any of his friends every had a drink of anything more than soda and never frequented clubs, (post 182), which in the UK would be considered unusual!
  #199  
Old 03-30-2007, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn
Wow! Great post, Ysbel. Your reasoning certainly makes sense to me.
If Harry were able to life in married quarters like any officer, could he stay in the service if he wanted to?
Great post ysbel! To answer your question Roslyn, some officers stay in the army past the normal retirement age, which is after 35 years service or at age 60. Those that do stay past 60, as you can imagine, are senior admin or advisors. The problem that I see for Harry would be that he would become a 'desk jockey', not an active soldier.

Another misconception that seems to be around is that servicemen and women have to live on the base. They don't, they can get a hiring (rent a house and the MOD pays towards the rental), they can buy their own place, they can rent their own place, all the MOD asks, is that it is within a reasonable distance from the base or that you are prepared, if needed to pay for the use of a singlies room.
  #200  
Old 03-30-2007, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Polly
In answer to what I think is your question about my making a guess on how I THINK a Prince of the Realm should behave, well, yes, I am.

I'm sorry that you read my post as overzealous preaching (etc) and quite surprised! I didn't accuse him of 'sin', for a start. indeed, I specifically mentioned that I didn't dislike him.

But Harry is not the only 23 year old off to Iraq (which he requested, unlike some others) and he is not the only young man or woman of his rank to be deployed there. To use this an excuse for his poor behavioural standards is unacceptable to me. I repeat, he is old enough now to consider who he is and what's due to his position, his family and the people of the realm and dominions.

Perhaps, and it's only perhaps, because you are not Australian, Canadian or a New Zealander you can't appreciate how gleefully Prince Henry of Wales' behaviour is being viewed in some quarters. In Australia and New Zealand, for instance, republicanism is on the rise and Harry's playing right into republican hands.

Hence my comments on his duty to family and his position which, from a British Commonwealth perspective are very much to the point and may well have distasteful repercussions for those of us who are not republicans.

Finally, I apologise for taking so long to reply: I have continuing problems in accessing this board.
Hi Polly thanks for explaining. The server has been slow for everybody.

Now I see where you're coming from. It makes sense that the republicans in Australia and having great fun with Harry's latest escapades and using them as ammunition against the monarchy.

However, I know some Australians who tell me that the main problem people have in Australia with the monarchy is that they want an Australian head of state. They think they get shortchanged by having their head of state in Britain where the monarch's first loyalties are necessarily going to lie. Even the Scots complain that the Queen favors England over Scotland so I can understand how many Australians feel shortchanged. As much as I admire the monarchy, I would have a valid concern about this if I were Australian and this is a concern that does not appear like it will go away just if Harry stops drinking.

Also I have heard even the most feverent opponents of the monarchy don't want to do anything while the Queen is alive. The Queen though could live for a long time still and Harry is going to get less and less relevant to the future of the monarchy as he gets older and William gets older and gets married and has children.

This happened to Princess Margaret, Princess Anne, and to some extent to Princes Andrew and Edward.

I guess my point is that Harry's behavior, though it does pose personal risks for him is common for someone of his age and environment. He is not the heir to the throne, so the future of the monarchy is not personally wrapped up in how well he does or how poorly he does. So if his common but regrettable behavior poses a threat to the monarchy in Australia, I think the monarchy in Australia has far bigger problems than just Harry and I suspect regardless of whether he cleans up his act or not, this won't have any effect on those larger issues that affect the future of the monarchy in the Commonwealth states.
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