Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon (1930-2002)

[tommy100]

That wouldn't surprise me in the least - public life was still very formal in Britain during Margaret's lifetime and she was very conscious of her place in the family as The Queen's only sibling. It's only been in the past few years that The Queen's grandchildren have started to refer to her as "granny" in public - and that has only been Harry, Beatrice, and Eugenie. Prince Charles will occasionally refer to her informally as "mummy" but only for effect - like at the Jubilee. As we saw in the documentary he made for her 90th he personally calls her Mama - with the emphasis on the second syllable. Anne, Andrew, and Edward refer to her as "Her Majesty" or "The Queen" in public as do Sophie, Peter, Zara, and even William. Formality still reigns in public.

I remember someone, I think it was James Whittaker, saying he was talking to Princess Anne when the butler came in to say the Queen was on the phone, Anne stood up the entire time she was talking to the Queen and only sat back down when she finished. He was made the point Anne was being respectful to HM and did it without even realising, that how ingrained into her it was. I wouldn't be surprised if to members of the public Margaret expected her children to refer to her as HRH

 

[Osipi]

but that's referring to her, not speaking to her directly in public. If they were at a public engagement would Charles call out "ma'am" or "YOur Majesty" to the queen or say "Mama, please can I introduce you to..."

My gut feelings on this would be the rule of thumb that its "Your Majesty" the first time you address the Queen and "Ma'am" after that even with her family in public.

I don't think Charles would call out to his mother but wait for an opportunity and then it would be Charles introducing the person of interest to the Queen first rather than introducing the Queen to the person of interest. Therefore, I believe he'd say something along the lines of "Ma'am, I'd like you to meet xxx". Most likely Ma'am because he's probably already addressed the Queen previously at the event or prior to it.

Margaret was known to be a stickler for protocol and I would imagine this same protocol would be adhered to in public. Anyone meeting Margaret would address her as "Your Royal Highness" to begin with and "Ma'am" after that.

 

[Denville]

I suppose, but that is the queen. However, I do find it hard to imagine Margaret hissing at her children "call me Ma'am in front of people". (still she was know for being rude!!).
I mean I wuoldn't expect them to say "Hey Ma" In front of other people, but I cant see anything wrong with a polite "Mummy" in public

 

[Skippyboo]

David and Sarah wouldn't really be accompanying Margaret on a royal engagement like we would see with the Queen's family. I can't imagine if Margaret was out to dinner with David and Sarah that her kids would not use Mummy or what ever they called her instead your Royal Highness and ma'am .

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I remember someone, I think it was James Whittaker, saying he was talking to Princess Anne when the butler came in to say the Queen was on the phone, Anne stood up the entire time she was talking to the Queen and only sat back down when she finished. He was made the point Anne was being respectful to HM and did it without even realising, that how ingrained into her it was. I wouldn't be surprised if to members of the public Margaret expected her children to refer to her as HRH

I think that was good manners towards Whittaker on Anne's part rather than respect for the Queen on a phone call. It would have been bad manners for Anne to have settled in for a chat with her mother while she had a guest in the room.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

There is a difference between private conversations in a public place versus interacting with others in a public place. I imagine in private conversations Margaret was called "Mummy" by her children, when others were involved she was more formally addressed.

 

[Denville]

Mabybe, if she was at dinner with friends, I imagine the children would call her Mummy, maybe if it was a bigger occasion and there were "outsiders" there they wodl say YRH
AS for anne, though I doubt if she was concerned about the feelings of a journalist.. if she stood up to talk to the queen, it was problaby out of an ingrained "My mother is the queen" feeling...

 

[Leopoldine]

New files show how Churchill gave money to Royal Princesses who is not able to find wealthy husbands to support them

Churchill gave money to princesses because there were no rich men | Royal | News | Express.co.uk

I just perused that. He gave a lot more money to the men.

Not surprising, for the son of a Buccaneer.

 

[Kronprinz]

Found this on Youtube:

"In the 1970's HRH Princess Margaret used to regularly pop round to my Mums 3 bed terrace. They would sit in the kitchen and talk about what was happening on the telly. Margaret absolutely loved Emmerdale Farm and she had been offered the chance of a cameo role. All it entailed was Margaret riding past on a horse as a few of the regulars stood talking.
The Queen forbade her to take part.
"Margaret. It is below the royal dignity.....".
Margaret was saddened and annoyed by this and she would often say that 'Liz' was jealous because Phil had a 'thing' for her.

Margaret stopped coming round after a slight tiff with my Mum.
For years she came round and ate all the chocolate digestives but never brought a packet round. One day my Mum served the tea but made a point of NOT handing out the biscuits. You could have cut the atmosphere with a knife.
That was February 11th 1980 and it was the last time she ever visited my Mum."

Of course we don't know if any of this is true but it certainly fits Princess Margaret and goes on to show how rude and entitled she was.

 

[Mirabel]

Why wasn't Princess Margaret's husband made a duke, instead of just an earl?

I can't think she was too pleased about that.

 

[Lee-Z]

Found this on Youtube:

<snipped>

Of course we don't know if any of this is true but it certainly fits Princess Margaret and goes on to show how rude and entitled she was.

Could you at least post a link so people interested can check out how credible this is, before we accuse P.Margaret of something?

 

[padams2359]

Why wasn't Princess Margaret's husband made a duke, instead of just an earl?

I can't think she was too pleased about that.

Had he been royal, or a peer, he may have been upgraded to a Duke, but as a total commoner, it was probably too big of a jump. Outside of the royal family, when was the last hereditary Duke created? Other than the Thatchers, have there been any other hereditary peers created at all?

 

[Curryong]

The YouTube extract about Prss Margaret sounds extremely unlikely, not because of Margaret's visiting people in a terrace house, (she may have done that with ex servants etc on occasion) but the whole tenor of the conversation.

Margaret was very loyal to her sister (surely she called her sister Lilibet not Liz) and I can't imagine in a million years her sitting gossiping about the Queen's relationship with her, or her brother in law's for that matter. "Phil has 'a thing' for me." Really! I can't imagine that she called Philip 'Phil' either. Margaret could be imperious and would often correct people if they spoke in an informal way about herself or her relatives. So, sorry, but it just reads like a load of rubbish to me.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

The YouTube extract about Prss Margaret sounds extremely unlikely, not because of Margaret's visiting people in a terrace house, (she may have done that with ex servants etc on occasion) but the whole tenor of the conversation.

Margaret was very loyal to her sister (surely she called her sister Lilibet not Liz) and I can't imagine in a million years her sitting gossiping about the Queen's relationship with her, or her brother in law's for that matter. "Phil has 'a thing' for me." Really! I can't imagine that she called Philip 'Phil' either. Margaret could be imperious and would often correct people if they spoke in an informal way about herself or her relatives. So, sorry, but it just reads like a load of rubbish to me.

Agreed.

I thought it was well known QEII is known as Lilibet among her closest. I cannot imagine Margaret calling her sister anything other than Lilibet.

And that Prince Phillip had a thing for Margaret? I doubt it.

 

[Curryong]

The last hereditary peerage given by this monarch was to the ex Prime Minister Harold Macmillan in 1984. It wasn't a dukedom. I believe the Queen had earlier asked Winston Churchill to accept a Dukedom when he last left office as PM, but he declined, as he didn't want to go to the Lords. I suspect King George VI had also offered a peerage to Churchill at the end of WW2, declined for the same reason.

The last non Royal Dukedom given was by Queen Victoria to the Earl of Fife who had married her granddaughter Louise (the eldest daughter of the future King Edward VII.) That was adjusted in 1900, just before Victoria's death, to allow the Duke's elder daughter to inherit the Dukedom as there were no surviving sons.

A Rare Species: Britain's Non-Royal Dukedoms | History Today

 

[Denville]

Why would he expect to be made a duke? I think he wasn't too pushed at all, and just accepted it so that his son, the queen's nephew would not just be plain Mr Jones.. whch seemed "odd" at the time. When Anne was married, it is said that the queen wanted her to accept a title for Mark, because she was expecting a baby and it would be plain Master Phillips.. but by the 1970s it did not seem so "offbeat" for the queen's grandson to be just "master" - it seemed more egalitarian.
And Mark P didn't want a title, nor did Anne want her children to be titled so they never received any

 

[Curryong]

I don't think this is a great revelation to any Royal watcher. It's well known that this woman could turn the charm on full blast when she wanted to, but also at times froze people out, imperiously demanded that they do things like hold her ashtray while she smoked, and was very inconsiderate of other people's feelings when she wanted to enjoy herself at the piano until the early hours of the morning.

 

[Dman]

I don't think this is a great revelation to any Royal watcher. It's well known that this woman could turn the charm on full blast when she wanted to, but also at times froze people out, imperiously demanded that they do things like hold her ashtray while she smoked, and was very inconsiderate of other people's feelings when she wanted to enjoy herself at the piano until the early hours of the morning.

Princess Margaret was such a beauty when she was young. Her entitled and snobbish attitude made you want to choke her though. She held her nose so far in the air, she would've needed a 10ft pole to pick it. All those years of smoking, drinking and living life in the edge took its toll on her in the end.

 

[Curryong]

Yes Dman, I agree. Sometimes what's on the inside of a person completely spoils any beautiful exterior IMO. She was lovely in her twenties though, agree with you, superb almost violet eyes against dark hair and a delicate complexion. Really exquisite.

 

[Denville]

I can't see anything charming about her at all. She wasn't IMO particularly intelligent or interesting..all she had was that she was attractive and had HRH in front of her name. Had it not been for that, I doubt if she have had the "oh she was charming but could be very selfish" at all.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think many royals have that antenna inside for recognition of their position. Princess Margriet, the always so lovely, likeable and down-to-earth sister of former Queen Beatrix appears in a margaret-esque story, with an attitude alike her British namesake.

On the Third Tuesday of September there is the annual equivalent of the State Opening of Parliament in The Hague. A guard of honour is standing in front of the palace and when a member of the Royal House leaves the palace, the regimental standard of the guard is bowed down: see picture.

When someone, who is NO member of the Royal House leaves the palace, the regimental standard of the guard is NOT bowed down: see picture.

Anyway, once HRH Princess Margriet of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess zur Lippe-Biesterfeld left the palace and the standard-bearer of the guard forgot to bow down the regimental standard for her. According the book "Aan het Hof" by Remco Meijer and Jan Hoedeman, afterwards the Princess was stingy towards the Gouverneur der Residentie, the highest military commander in The Hague, responsible for the military ceremonial: "Since when I am no Princess of the Netherlands anymore?", leaving the governor choking in his cake or something.

Princess Margriet! Such a sweet lady, so approachable, so charming! And then such a stingy remark inside the palace walls... So this feeds my theory that all born royals have such a sixth sense for something which looks totally futile in our eyes but can be of the greatest importance for them. I think Princess Margaret had exact that same sixth sense in her. It is not "nose in the air". They simply know they are born into that position.

 

[Osipi]

"Oh look! Margo's on fire"

I just finished reading "Behind Palace Doors: My Service as the Queen Mother's Equerry" by Major Colin Burgess and he relates an incident that best expresses Margaret's demeanor.

They were all having dinner and Margaret reached for something and inadvertently had her hair too close to a candle. Her hair started to smolder and then started to really burn. HM, The Queen notices and says "Oh look! Margo's on fire!". A staff member close to Margaret then quickly pats out the burning hair with his hands. At first Margaret looks at him with an expression that said "how dare you touch me like that" in an imperious manner until she realized what was really happening. It was quickly over and the dinner resumed.

Margaret could be funny, witty, amusing and a whole lot of fun but never, ever did she let people forget who she was.

 

[Denville]

It wasn't so much the never letting people forget who she was, as the way that she would apparently be informal and friendly and THEN revert to "I'm the queen's sister" icy mode and freeze people.
that's rude and unpleasant. But she was always like this.
I think that once the queen became queen, Margo was very much clinging desperately to that royal status, knowing that she wasn't ever going to be queen, that her sisters' children would be more important than her, that her adoring father was gone and the only thing she had to cling to was that she was HRH and the Q's sister.

 

[Skippy]

It wasn't so much the never letting people forget who she was, as the way that she would apparently be informal and friendly and THEN revert to "I'm the queen's sister" icy mode and freeze people.
that's rude and unpleasant. But she was always like this.
I think that once the queen became queen, Margo was very much clinging desperately to that royal status, knowing that she wasn't ever going to be queen, that her sisters' children would be more important than her, that her adoring father was gone and the only thing she had to cling to was that she was HRH and the Q's sister.

I agree. A lot of her behavior can be attributed to compensating. She would always be the odd one out, coarsely said 'the loser', second best, so her title was all she had to make her feel important and she held onto it for dear life.

Rather sad actually if one gets his/her self-esteem from a title, but that's how it worked for some in those days I guess.

 

[Denville]

as a roiyal there's bound to be something of one's self esteem bound up with one's history and status. however, I think with Margaret, she was a silly woman, her father spoiled her a bit, and then she had the love affair with Townsend that went badly. Perhaps if she had been able to marry him, and keep up her Royal role, she might not have been so "empty".
But I think that she was "second in line and second best" once her adoring father was gone and Peter T had been banished so he couldn't supply her with the love and private happiness. So I think she then looked for friendship and love elsewhere but was always clinging to the idea that as an HRH and a Kings daughter, she was better than anyone else..

 

[Osipi]

I agree. A lot of her behavior can be attributed to compensating. She would always be the odd one out, coarsely said 'the loser', second best, so her title was all she had to make her feel important and she held onto it for dear life.

Rather sad actually if one gets his/her self-esteem from a title, but that's how it worked for some in those days I guess.

Some sources I've read put this aspect of Margaret into perspective by calling it what is known as the "middle child syndrome". Although loved as much as any child, the first one (especially in the royal family) is the one that the expectations are heaped on, usually are the heirs and the second child sometimes feels like the afterthought. Margaret was mercurial in her moods.

Not only Margaret has been this way. Many state that Andrew is pretty much the same by having to stress the fact that he is royal and that he is a prince and that he has status. Some sources state that he's not even nice about it for the most part when dealing with "underlings". One, Major Colin Burgess a former equerry to the Queen Mother, goes as far as to say that Andrew's catch phrase is "Do it".

 

[Denville]

True Andrew is rather like that. I think it is partly to do with their both being "second in line".. and knowing that they missed the "being King" by a narrow margin. I gather Andy also tends to be friendly at times and then revert to Prince status.
However there have been other second sons who were queite, shy and modest, and not bumptious at all.. like George V and George VI...

 

[Skippy]

as a roiyal there's bound to be something of one's self esteem bound up with one's history and status. however, I think with Margaret, she was a silly woman, her father spoiled her a bit, and then she had the love affair with Townsend that went badly. Perhaps if she had been able to marry him, and keep up her Royal role, she might not have been so "empty".
But I think that she was "second in line and second best" once her adoring father was gone and Peter T had been banished so he couldn't supply her with the love and private happiness. So I think she then looked for friendship and love elsewhere but was always clinging to the idea that as an HRH and a Kings daughter, she was better than anyone else..

Her relationship with Peter Townsend also left her scarred, I do believe that.
And I used to be one of those who wished that she would have married him and felt sad for her that her wish in this was denied.

But did it not become clear from one of her letters that she was not so much 'forbidden' to marry him as much as she was unsure if she wanted to marry him at all?

My guess is that she wanted both worlds and could not make up her mind. She chose the world she grew up in, but it left a resentfulness in her because she was not able to marry the man she loved.
Had she married that man that would also left her to be resentful because she did not have her "King's Daughter and Queen's sister" anymore.

I do think she was a beautiful woman, but her character??? Not so beautiful, I'm afraid. That does make a person less beautiful on the outside for me.

 

[Denville]

I thnk she had genuine religious scruples, and her loyalty to the queen etc made her reluctant to do something that might have created problems for her sister. But some of it, was I think a fear of moving outside the Royal life that was all she knew.. She would nto have starved but she wanted to be boht "princess Margaret doing royal work and photographed as one of the bright young things of the 50's.." AND the wife of a not very well off man - who would have problaby had to live abroad for a few years at least. But I think that she was bitter, having made her decision, and felt that she'd been deprived of personal happiness by an accident of birth...

 

[Skippy]

Now that you mention it, I also think that the idea of moving out of the only life she knew frightened her.
She wanted both worlds - she wanted to be HRH The Princess Margaret and have Peter Townsend for her husband. Perhaps in a certain way she was ahead of her time...

What comes up suddenly is that I once read, I believe it was Hello Magazine's tribute to her after her death, that her parents were anticipating a boy and when she was born it took her parents up to two weeks to come up with a name for her.
If true, might she not have felt that somehow all along? Kind of the "unwanted child"?