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  #41  
Old 07-22-2006, 09:45 AM
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Question Ordinals - A Male Thing

Hi,

Lorenzo -
Maybe ordinals are a male thing because there are predominantly more male monarchs than female in history.
All those Fredericks and Christians in the Danish Royal Family and Gustavs in the Swedish and Nicholas and Alexanders in the Russian - confusing......

Furienne -
Thank you for posting the Swedish kings and their wives; I always get them all mixed up!!

Larry
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  #42  
Old 07-22-2006, 09:57 AM
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Thank you! Just be sure to remember, that Margareth of Connaught never became our queen, and that Gustaf Adolf Edmund and Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha never became king and queen.
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  #43  
Old 07-22-2006, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
No. A regnal number implies ruling authority which consorts do not have.

Both male and female monarchs do not use a regnal number if they are the first. We in Britain speak of "King John" and "Queen Anne" Not John I and Anne I. Not until they have successors with the same name would they be designated as the first.

It is absolutely wrong to say Elizabeth is called 'II' because she is second in the House of Windsor, houses do not matter and consorts do not matter when it comes to regnal numbers.

There has only been one King Consort of England and that was Phillip II of Spain, King Consort to Mary I.
HM Queen Elizabeth II is the second Elizabeth in the House of Windsor else she would be known as Elizabeth III as there were Elizabeth I in the House of Tudor if the regnal number be continued from other houses of the same name from the English Royal Family.
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  #44  
Old 07-22-2006, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vecchiolarry
Hi,

Lorenzo -
Maybe ordinals are a male thing because there are predominantly more male monarchs than female in history.
All those Fredericks and Christians in the Danish Royal Family and Gustavs in the Swedish and Nicholas and Alexanders in the Russian - confusing......

Furienne -
Thank you for posting the Swedish kings and their wives; I always get them all mixed up!!

Larry
Yes I agree with you that there are more male monarchs than female but I don't agree that ordinals or regnal number is a male thing as Elizabeth II,Margerethe II and Elizabeth I are female monarchs.
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  #45  
Old 07-22-2006, 10:32 AM
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But since more men than women have been monarchs, it sort of becomes a male thing, even if females can have numbers too, if they become monarchs.
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  #46  
Old 07-22-2006, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srivishnu
HM Queen Elizabeth II is the second Elizabeth in the House of Windsor else she would be known as Elizabeth III as there were Elizabeth I in the House of Tudor if the regnal number be continued from other houses of the same name from the English Royal Family.
I don't understand what's going on here. Regnal numbers relate to reigning monarchs. There have been two Elizabeths as reigning Queens, thus we have today Elizabeth II. The number of times the same Queen Consort's name appears within a House or over centuries is irrelevant.
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  #47  
Old 07-22-2006, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
I don't understand what's going on here. Regnal numbers relate to reigning monarchs. There have been two Elizabeths as reigning Queens, thus we have today Elizabeth II. The number of times the same Queen Consort's name appears within a House or over centuries is irrelevant.
HM Queen Elizabeth II is the reigning monarch of Britain and the consort of HRH Prince Philip,the Duke of Edinburgh.So the Duke of Edinburgh is the Queen's Consort and not The Queen unless HRH Prince Philip is the reigning monarch then The Queen is the King's Consort.
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2006, 03:29 PM
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Srivishnu,

You are just wrong, and perhaps we could ask a moderator to clarify that.

Elizabeth II is NOT known as 'II' because she is the second queen called Elizabeth in the house of Windsor.

She is known as the second "II" because she is the second ruling monarch of England called Elizabeth. Before her, Queen Elizabeth I was just referred to as 'Queen Elizabeth' in the same way that Queen Anne or King John are currently referred to without a "I" because there have been no further ruling Queens Anne or Kings John.

Like I told you, Srivishnu, Queens Consort with the same name have followed each other and no numerals have been used.

The regnal numeral has nothing to do with the house of the monarch; it is simply an indicator of how many monarchs of that name have ruled England.

Elizabeth is the second Queen Regnant of that name hence Elizabeth II. Nothing to do with her late Majesty the Queen Mother. Nothing to do with the House of Windsor.

Consorts have no right to a regnal number - at this point maybe a moderator should clarify that in case your posts are confusing anybody - I'm sure you mean well, but you have been misled on this by somebody!

Edited: In fact Warren's post above does clarify that you are wrong, and it should be definitive.
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  #49  
Old 07-22-2006, 03:34 PM
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Correct, Frothy. The current numbering system started after the 1066 conquest and has run ever since, regardless of which House has occupied the throne. Hence Edward I wasn't the first king of England called Edward, but he was the first after the Conquest. No consorts have been numbered except for Mary II, and that's because she was Queen in her own right as well as William III's consort. It has nothing to do with how many consorts called Mary preceded her, but it indicates that only one Queen Regnant named Mary preceded her.
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  #50  
Old 07-23-2006, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frothy
Srivishnu,

You are just wrong, and perhaps we could ask a moderator to clarify that.

Elizabeth II is NOT known as 'II' because she is the second queen called Elizabeth in the house of Windsor.

She is known as the second "II" because she is the second ruling monarch of England called Elizabeth. Before her, Queen Elizabeth I was just referred to as 'Queen Elizabeth' in the same way that Queen Anne or King John are currently referred to without a "I" because there have been no further ruling Queens Anne or Kings John.

Like I told you, Srivishnu, Queens Consort with the same name have followed each other and no numerals have been used.

The regnal numeral has nothing to do with the house of the monarch; it is simply an indicator of how many monarchs of that name have ruled England.

Elizabeth is the second Queen Regnant of that name hence Elizabeth II. Nothing to do with her late Majesty the Queen Mother. Nothing to do with the House of Windsor.

Consorts have no right to a regnal number - at this point maybe a moderator should clarify that in case your posts are confusing anybody - I'm sure you mean well, but you have been misled on this by somebody!

Edited: In fact Warren's post above does clarify that you are wrong, and it should be definitive.
Yes,I know that Queen's Consort do not use the numerals as they are not the rightful heir to the throne such as HRH Prince Philip,the Duke of Edinburgh,HRH Prince Henrik of Denmark,the Prince Consort and HRH Prince Albert (HM Queen Victoria's husband).Elizabeth from the House of Tudor is known as Elizabeth I not just Queen Elizabeth.Maybe I have been misled by Buckingham Palace.So sorry for any confusion.
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  #51  
Old 07-23-2006, 04:17 AM
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breathe deeply...

Quote:
Originally Posted by srivishnu
Yes,I know that Queen's Consort do not use the numerals as they are not the rightful heir to the throne such as HRH Prince Philip,the Duke of Edinburgh,HRH Prince Henrik of Denmark,the Prince Consort and HRH Prince Albert (HM Queen Victoria's husband).Elizabeth from the House of Tudor is known as Elizabeth I not just Queen Elizabeth.Maybe I have been misled by Buckingham Palace.So sorry for any confusion.
srivishnu, we have already clarified this issue.
Let's not now go down the same confused and meandering track by throwing regnal numbers and "rightful heirs to the throne" into the mix.
Forget Queen Consorts, forget heirs to thrones. Regnal numbers refer only to Monarchs. Full stop.
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  #52  
Old 01-09-2012, 05:23 PM
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Interestingly, every Austro-Hungary Emperor used 1st: Francis I, Ferdinand I, Francis Josef I and Charles I...
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  #53  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:02 PM
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i'm not usually a fan of wikipedia but i have to say the page on this very issue is pretty clear and i have to say seems to correspond to current practices in Europe.

Monarchical ordinal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Queens consort

While reigning monarchs use ordinals, ordinals are not used for royal consorts. So whereas King George V of the United Kingdom used an ordinal to distinguish him from other kings in the United Kingdoms called George, his wife, Queen Mary, had no ordinal.
The lack of an ordinal in the case of royal consorts complicates the recording of history, as there may be a number of consorts over time with the same name with no way to distinguish between them. For that reason, royal consorts after their deaths are recorded in history books and encyclopaedias through the use of their maiden name or, if from a noble family, its Royal House (dynastic name) or the name of the corresponding titled land.


"The first"

In some monarchies it is customary not to use an ordinal when there has been only one holder of that name. For example, Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom will not be called Victoria I until there is a Victoria II. This tradition is applied in the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Norway. It was also applied in most of the German monarchies and in the Hungarian. In Sweden, the practice is not consistent, as Sigismund and Adolf Frederick never have ordinals, whereas Frederick I often does.
Other monarchies do assign ordinals to monarchs who are the only ones of their name. This is a more recent invention and appears to be done for the first time when King Francis I of France issued testoons (silver coins) bearing the legend FRANCISCVS I DE. GR. FRANCORV. REX. This currently is the regular practice in Belgium, Spain and Monaco (at least for Prince Albert I, as Princess Louise Hippolyte, who reigned 150 years earlier, doesn't appear to have used an ordinal). It was also applied in Brazil, Italy, Mexico, Montenegro, Portugal (where, although this is the general rule, Kings Joseph and Luís are usually referred to as "Joseph I" and "Luís I", although there were no Joseph II, nor Luís II) and by the Papacy under Pope John Paul I. The ordinal for King Juan Carlos I of Spain is used in both Spanish and English, but he is sometimes simply called King Juan Carlos of Spain in English. In Russia, use of "The First" ordinal started with Paul I. Before him, neither Anna of Russia nor Elizabeth of Russia had the "I" ordinal.
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  #54  
Old 01-10-2012, 08:05 AM
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I get confused by this thread.What I know is the regnal number is used for the ruling monarch either male or female and not for consorts except some cases when the consort is himself or herself a ruling monarch for another country or both monarchs joined the two countries under their joint reign.
It's certainly not a male thing to use regnal number but as earlier poster mentioned there are a lot of male monarchs with the same neme in the same royal family which is confusing so the use of regnal number is more obvious for male monarchs.

Btw, At the royal family of Italy,the regnal numbers are realy confusing as the first king of italy was called Vittorio Emanuele II and his son the second king was called Umberto I.
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  #55  
Old 01-10-2012, 02:18 PM
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The Italian numeration followed that used by the Dukes of Savoy.
Vittorio Amedeo II, Duke of Savoy, became King Vittorio Amedeo II of Sardinia in 1720 when the Kingdom was ceded to the Dukes of Savoy;
King Vittorio Emanuele II of Sardinia became King Vittorio Emanuele II of Italy in 1861 when the Savoy dynasty assumed the new Crown following Italian unification.
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  #56  
Old 01-10-2012, 04:34 PM
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[
Quote:
QUOTE=Warren;1356739]
The Italian numeration followed that used by the Dukes of Savoy.
Vittorio Amedeo II, Duke of Savoy, became King Vittorio Amedeo II of Sardinia in 1720 when the Kingdom was ceded to the Dukes of Savoy;
King Vittorio Emanuele II of Sardinia became King Vittorio Emanuele II of Italy in 1861 when the Savoy dynasty assumed the new Crown following Italian unification.
[/QUOTE]


Thanks warren.I want to add that Umberto I was supposed to be Umberto IV according to Dukes of Savoy numeration but he chose to be called the first as he was the first Umberto of the kingdom of Italy.
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  #57  
Old 01-10-2012, 05:34 PM
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Wikipedia looks correct to me (and detailed in its explanation).

When people misunderstand each other in text, it often helps to put more paragraph breaks in. Some of the misunderstood posts on this thread have used the dreaded "wall of text" format.

King John is another example of a male monarch without a number.
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  #58  
Old 01-13-2012, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
I believe our Swedish king Oscar I was always known as Oscar I after he had become our king, even before his son was known as King Oscar II. But I'm not sure.
Oscar I was not known as Oscar I during his reign, you can check these coins minted during his reign, the inscription says "Oscar Sveriges Norr. Goth. och Vend. Konung" without any numeral. Oscar I

So if Victoria and Daniel have a son and gives him the name Wilhelm, there wouldn't be any numeral in his name when he becomes king as there haven't been any Swedish king named Wilhelm before him.
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  #59  
Old 01-13-2012, 12:29 PM
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Great post, Maude - I guess we have to keep track of this nation by nation. Seems the majority of nations are similar to England...while those more closely connected to the Holy Roman Empire are apt to putting a number when one isn't strictly needed to distinguish the person? I'm sort of guessing what the summary of all this might be.
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  #60  
Old 01-13-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
Oscar I was not known as Oscar I during his reign, you can check these coins minted during his reign, the inscription says "Oscar Sveriges Norr. Goth. och Vend. Konung" without any numeral. Oscar I

So if Victoria and Daniel have a son and gives him the name Wilhelm, there wouldn't be any numeral in his name when he becomes king as there haven't been any Swedish king named Wilhelm before him.
I see. Well, I said I wasn't sure.
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